"Blue" Lacy

[Wmwendler]

I am interested in all things cur dog.  BMC, Brindle Cur, Catahoula and yes even the Lacy which has always struck me as a cur dog.  Cur definately not meaning mongrel in this case.  So It has always confused me when I read the internet version of the Lacy dog's history, and it's account of how Lacys originated from coyotes, greyhounds, ect.  I simply cannot bring my self to believe such nonsence.

Regardless, it is an intersting breed of dog and I've done quite a bit of pondering and researching the breed.  Like them or hate them.  Here is my take on Lacy dogs.

The Lacy Dog (some might say Blue Lacy, but they come in other colors) was a unique stock bred line of Cur dogs that originated in and was widely used for free range livestock work in the Hill Country of Texas.   The foundation dogs that the founder, Mr.  George Lacy  used, were Cur dogs that came from East Texas.  There is documentation to support this.  No one will ever convince me that the Lacy dogs did not originate from Cur dogs.  Even if you ignore the documentation that supports it, there are too many similarities for it to be a coincidence.  Unfortunately for the breed, someone or a group of someones, foolishly decided to masquerade the breed as a mix of canine breeds that would certainly contribute nothing to a stock working dog.  That supposed mix includes coyote, greyhound and other nonsense breeds.  I have no idea why that person or group of persons did that, perhaps for reasons of romanticism, sensationalism and fake uniqueness.  But it is a shame that the breed registy uses this explanation of origin.

The Lacy line of dogs was nearly lost to extinction.  Much like many other lines of Cur dogs throughout Texas have been.  Some of these other lines have survived, and some have not.  Many of them were absorbed into the more popular Cur types such as BMC and Catahoula.     After the near extintion of the Lacy line of dogs...... the subseqent "revival" was spearheaded by mostly non-working dog and/or (barely working dog) owners.    Those revival folks then developed the "Blue Lacy" breed into what we have today, which is now the Texas state dog.  They may have had success in preserving a good representation of what the Lacy dogs looked like, but in my opinion, the lack of proving the dogs in a real working environment all but ruined that line of Cur dogs from what it must have formerly been in regards to a free range stock working Cur dog.  I'd say they had poor success, at best, in that regard.  In other words, the dogs used in reforming the breed were not extensively tested for working ability like they should have been.  And the breed suffered as a working dog because of it.   There are still good working Lacy dogs out there but even those are likely not the quality once produced by the Line.  And they are few and far between.  After all it is a tough row to hoe when you have gone through what the Lacy dog has. 

[Lacy man]

Sir, you might wanna call mr. Jimmy
Brooks he might can clue you in. He's been around the lacy breed back when the lacy brothers were alive. And he's from marble falls. And it's not a coyote sir, it's a wolf is what is believed. You reading bad info wherever your gettin it, check out  Nlda

[Lacy man]

If you'd like to talk about em pm me

[Wmwendler]

Let me ask you this?   What traits do you think a wolf had that could contribute (instincts wise) to the development of a stock working dog?  Wolf or Coyote it makes no difference.  I beleive neither have anything to contribute to a stock working dog.  Nor does a grey hound  or scent hound in my opinion.

           
        "If you'd like to talk about em pm me"

I'd like to keep this discussion public so others can join in.  But, I don't care if anyone likes them or dislikes them, So If I see it turn into a shooting match or argument about weather they are good or bad.  I will delete the thread.

Waylon 

[bigo]

Back in the old days the better dogs you had the more stock you could control and more range you could use which equaled prosperity. Good working dogs were not let out for that reason and there origin was also guarded. It was commen when asked where dogs came from or how they were bred to tell you something that there was no way you would believe it instead of telling you none of your business. I read an old interview of Ody Calhoun of Calhoun Fox Hound family and when asked how they originated, he told the interviewer that God had sent them down to earth to gaurd some tribe in Africa. I believe you could breed wolf, hound and greyhound without adding any cur stockdog blood for a hundred years and not get dogs that worked stock correctly. If it looks like a duck walks like a duck and sounds like a duck, guess what.

[Wmwendler]

If it looks like a duck walks like a duck and sounds like a duck, guess what.

Quack? 


Thanks for posting up Big-O.  I have never thought about it from that standpoint, but it makes sence.

Waylon

[Lacy man]

Well how would you explain the prey drive? Wolf has prey drive like no other. Greyhound hints the slick thin fast body they have. And scent hound, I ll show you my male and hes got a nose from hell. If you watch YouTube mr brooks talks a little bit about the originality of them. Don't see the post in our thread looks like to me your just trying to complicate things and not take the validation of others on what the dogs came from. That's just what i see.. Lacys don't look like cur to me or act like a cur, there may be some lacys with curs from crosses but I don't believe the original lacys did

[Lacy man]

And not sure how the cross is "nonsense" have you not read what some ppl cross or "thinkin" about crossing? Lol it very well could have been done

[Wmwendler]

Well I dont want to take away anything from the work others have done.  That work is certainly a very valuable contribution to preserving the Lacy dog and its history.  Other lines of Texas native stock working dogs have not been so lucky in that regard.  I will use the term stock working dogs as apposed to Cur dogs becuase we are in agreement that Lacy dogs are the former, but not in agreement that they are the latter.  They are a unique part of Texas history and a treasure of our state that needs to be preserved and the only thing I desire to bring of this is promote discussion that might shed some new ideas on the subjust and further our understanding of the dogs.

Does the NLDA register Lacy dogs and if so are they the only registry? Or is there another?  When was the NLDA formed?   I am thinking relatively recently If I am not mistaken.  I looked on the NLDA web site but could not find this info.

Waylon

[T-Bob Parker]

Well how would you explain the prey drive? Wolf has prey drive like no other. Greyhound hints the slick thin fast body they have. And scent hound, I ll show you my male and hes got a nose from hell. If you watch YouTube mr brooks talks a little bit about the originality of them. Don't see the post in our thread looks like to me your just trying to complicate things and not take the validation of others on what the dogs came from. That's just what i see.. Lacys don't look like cur to me or act like a cur, there may be some lacys with curs from crosses but I don't believe the original lacys did

How did they get their prey drive? You can call it prey drive if you wish or it could be referee to as working desire.

Strong working desire, Thin sleek fast body and a nose like you've never seen?

Exhibit A


Exhibit B


Exhibit C


Exhibit D



These are all CUR dogs and these four are prime examples of these traits you implied are only explain by wolf, greyhound or hound.

[Lacy man]

Well how would you explain the prey drive? Wolf has prey drive like no other. Greyhound hints the slick thin fast body they have. And scent hound, I ll show you my male and hes got a nose from hell. If you watch YouTube mr brooks talks a little bit about the originality of them. Don't see the post in our thread looks like to me your just trying to complicate things and not take the validation of others on what the dogs came from. That's just what i see.. Lacys don't look like cur to me or act like a cur, there may be some lacys with curs from crosses but I don't believe the original lacys did

How did they get their prey drive? You can call it prey drive if you wish or it could be referee to as working desire.

Strong working desire, Thin sleek fast body and a nose like you've never seen?

Exhibit A


Exhibit B


Exhibit C


Exhibit D



These are all CUR dogs and these four are prime examples of these traits you implied are only explain by wolf, greyhound or hound.

T bob I wasn't stating other dogs don't have the desire to hunt. Work. Etc. just trying to validate the history on them and what they came from

[Lacy man]

Well I dont want to take away anything from the work others have done.  That work is certainly a very valuable contribution to preserving the Lacy dog and its history.  Other lines of Texas native stock working dogs have not been so lucky in that regard.  I will use the term stock working dogs as apposed to Cur dogs becuase we are in agreement that Lacy dogs are the former, but not in agreement that they are the latter.  They are a unique part of Texas history and a treasure of our state that needs to be preserved and the only thing I desire to bring of this is promote discussion that might shed some new ideas on the subjust and further our understanding of the dogs.

Does the NLDA register Lacy dogs and if so are they the only registry? Or is there another?  When was the NLDA formed?   I am thinking relatively recently If I am not mistaken.  I looked on the NLDA web site but could not find this info.

Waylon

There is Nlda, ltgda and Nlda was originated in 2008 but there's history between the two associations similar to that of akc vs ukc

[Lacy man]

And yes they have separate registers for both groups

[T-Bob Parker]

Waylon, I know what you're getting at and I've always thought the same thing about lacy dogs. The breeders and fanciers seem to have this romanticized idea of their mysterious origins and use the different strains to explain their modern traits but they are by and large bred by either "fanciers" or hunters.

I'll forget about the fanciers for the time being and focus on the hunters

I don't mean to be rude to my fellow hunter or sound like a know it all because I assure you I ain't nothing of the sort. I see that the most successful dogs in the hog working world have their roots in the hands of stockmen. I have seen lots of "hunting" dogs and there aren't very many that can put up the numbers or the ease of success that stock bred curs can. The expiation to the rule is a few dogmen out there who REALLY know they're stuff but even most of their dogs have stock working cur lineage.

It's hard to truly explain myself but what I'm getting to is the old stories of wow factor lacy dogs were dogs who hunted stock, got em bayed then LEAD the stock out of the woods (lead from the front working like a gate----- what family of dogs does that sound like?? ) and instead of continuing to better the breed by ensuring they maintain their stock sence, the (hunters) who breed them today are looking for range nose and bottom. Those are the first traits a houndsman should be after, not necessarily a cur man.

Does that make sence Bigo or Waylon? I may not be able to writ out what's in my head but I guess it's best sums up by saying lots of folks breeding dogs have a pure pleasure hunting mindset and want more range, nose, and maybe bottom and even if a dog don't produce hogs like a smarter dog could they will put the dog on a pedestal because they haven't seen the style of
Cur your talking bout. Hell I know for a fact I was after the wrong traits for a good while.

[T-Bob Parker]

Yeah I know lacy man, I didn't word it to you very well but I got your drift and I was just showing slick bodies and saying they have all the necessary traits to be full cousins lacy dogs pretty much.

[ETHHunters]

Tbob the main thing i see wrong with your conclusions is that you cant have the best of both worlds. Theres absolutely no reason you cant have a dog that handles hogs like a stock dog and still have the nose bottom and range. That may not be what your saying but it sure sounds like it.

[Lacy man]

Since we re on the subject can y'all tell me what makes up the makeup of a yeller dog?

[bigo]

Back in the days of open range you had to have range, nose and bottom. Before you could pen them you had to find them then drive them long distances. The dogs that were sure-nuff find dogs were held in high reguard then as now. Some people think that a dog that will run around and bark at a cow is a cow dog. That may work in the smaller improved pastures of today on todays cattle but most I've seen these days would have been shot if used in the big woods. I only hunt hogs these days but I never want to loose the stock sense in my dogs because I think that is one thing that sets them apart.

[Lacy man]

Back in the days of open range you had to have range, nose and bottom. Before you could pen them you had to find them then drive them long distances. The dogs that were sure-nuff find dogs were held in high reguard then as now. Some people think that a dog that will run around and bark at a cow is a cow dog. That may work in the smaller improved pastures of today on todays cattle but most I've seen these days would have been shot if used in the big woods. I only hunt hogs these days but I never want to loose the stock sense in my dogs because I think that is one thing that sets them apart.

10-4 on that

[Wmwendler]

I take it that t-bob is saying that some people may loose focuse on the stock working ability, and focus only on things like range, bottom and hunting ability.  Either that or they have yet to become aware of what stock working ability brings to the table.


Lacy man....your saying there is disagreement between the two lacy organizations?

            .....The "on the books" Cur dog origin is full of nonsence myth and legend just like the Lacy dog.  But in my opinion it originated from working/stock dogs that the settlers and colonist brought over with them from the home lands of Europe.  
-The collie type dogs across the board from all of europe.  
-What is now known as the spanish alano  from spain, a herding dog I beleive had influence in the areas where the spanish settled (IE Texas, and Florida.)  
-The beacueron, a french herding dog which i think most likely had the biggest inflience in Cur dog development in french settled Louisiana, and is likely the contributor of the Merle or leopard color in Catahoulas.  
-There is the ever present hound as well but not the type of scent hound the Europe nobility had and used for giving chase to animals.  More of a general common man hunting dog that was hunted with a style that put meat on the table.  Something more allong the lines of what Plotts developed from.

This is just my opinion based research and knowledge of those people who settled the areas where cur dogs originated, what dogs existed when they came over on boats, and which ones out of those dogs, would have been usefull enough for herding and hunting to justify bringing them over on the long trip by boat.


Waylon