"Blue" Lacy

[Wmwendler]

 .....have you read the article by Hazel Oatman Bowen that was originally in the Cattleman Magazine in 1942?  I had previously read what I thought was the whole article (I somehow dug it up searching the web) but, after browsing the NLDA web site I discovered they had the whole article.  I just finished reading it and it changes a few things for me because there was more info that I was not aware of.  To start is the part where it mentions when "George Lacy first introduced that type of dog (the Lacy type) to the area from East Texas"  "It was some 45 years ago".  The article was writen in 1942 that puts these events starting pre 1900's.  Later than I originally was thinking and A time in which the Cur dog may well have still been in a development stage in which it was not yet a type that bred true.  This changes my train of thought a little bit.  It moves me to think that maybe the Lacy dog was not nececarily developed directly from traditional cur dogs as much as it developed at the same time, for the same purpose, and from the same root stock of dogs.  Not to mention using the same style of work.  No matter how you look at it.  It is esentially a Cur dog, Like the BMC and the Catahoula.  Further explanation from the 1942 Bowen article mentions specific dogs used by They Lacy Bros. to develpe thier line of dogs.  One "was a yellow ring neck dog from east Texas that was simply a good type of stock dog"  They also mention the dogs ears stood up when allert.  That points to some collie influence as does the ring neck.  Although they do not call it a collie.  And Im assuming they would have specified if it was a collie.  That assumption based on the fact that they do specify the breeds of another crossbred dog mentioned that was also one of the foundation Lacy dogs.  A yellow ring neck dog from East Texas that is simply a good type of stock dog certainly says Cur dog to me.  The other dog was reported to be a collie/hound cross and was blue in color.  It goes on to say that "a majority of the hog dogs in the Lano section have Lacy blood in them, and are direct decendants of this original cross of the blue and yellow dogs".  The rest of the article mentions other dog from other men used for free range hog work in the same area at the time.  They mention collies, shepards, curs, and even a hound or bull dog or two but mention of wolves and no greyhounds.  I am not aware any original articles that pre-date this one that mention wolves or greyhounds?  I hold this one as being the most historically accurate being that (as far as I know) it is the earliest, and it was written at the end of the free range hog era and holds accounts of those that participated in free range hog work.

I've got a hunch that greyhounds did not even exist in Texas at that time.  I'd have to dig up the facts to know for sure.  More on that later.

Waylon

[Purebreedcolt]

have yall ever seen videos of how yotes or wolves work in packs to bring down large prey?  I gurentee they could be taught to herd if they were not focused on eating.  I had a half kelpie half yote that was a hell of a working dog on sheep and goats.  Two they are smart smart like no other canine how else would they have been able to survive all of the hunting pressure.  Both of these play into the lacys.  I have never seen dogs think like a lacy or yote does and not saying I haven't seen other smart dogs and know they are out there but to see them work out a problem is not something that just any dog will do.  I had a sandy colored lacy for a while that looked a lot like a yote and always thought it was a throw back to the yote or wolf in them.  If it was wolf is was a red wolf that are a lot smaller that most wolves we think about not much bigger than a yote.  A lacy is fast bringing in the grey hound and again the dogs back then are not what they are todays dogs are some bigger.  I have read sever different things on the hound in them and talked with several people my thoughts is it is a trig dog of some sorts.  This would possably explain the tri colored dogs.  If you don't think a lacy can not still be a herding dog I would like yall to speak to a guy in eden tx named max.  Trapper chick knows him also he has some durn good cow dog lacys and uses them durn near daily as he is a day worker along with his own stock.   Do I see some cur qualities in lacys yes and wouldn't dought that there is some cur blood in them as the lacy brothers also had curs this is where they started with dogs but a lacy and a cur dog are far from alike.  Would also like to point out how some lacys are a pain and grouchy think this also comes back to the yote or wolf in them.  They work well when hunting but when not they make sure they know the pecking order.  Because growing up I had that kelpie/yote I see a lot of similarities of her and lacy dogs.
 

[TexasHogDogs]

I can see it being grey hound in these dogs and I can also see maybe some yote are wolf in there and the other I have no ideal some herding breed I would think.  The two lacys I have kept are fast fast fast dogs like a quater horse and swift on there feet "Grey Hound" I would think and can almost see it when I look at them hard.  Also  Mine have got good noses will wind are work a track either one "Yote"  Also Grouchy as hell ill tempered sometimes again "Yote"

Also I look at these dogs some times the two bitches I have that I have kept got rid of the rest just to much for me with my on dogs here but when I look at these dogs I sometimes find myself thinking damn I can see the grey hound in that dog not only the speed but the bone structure and the head and damn I can also see the yote are wolf in them dogs yote I would say before wolf.

Seen a ton of Toms dogs the same way .  I like the littler type Lacys myself 35 to 45 lbs swift swift swift !

Just me!

[TexasHogDogs]

I would like to add this also.  Just my own opinion but I think if some folks that are messing with these lacy dogs if they dont get the dollar signs out of their eyes and  if they dont watch out and do things the right way the way dogs are suppose to be bred , the way great lines are suppose to be made and been made for hundreds of years this breed of dog is going to go down hill like a snow ball headed for hell !  I do think there is way to many people that are not real breeders that are breeding these dogs and are doing more harm to the breed that good.  I can say this freely because I only own two of these dogs now and dont give a good hot damn about papers are a registery .  This is my own thoughts experinces from handling, watching and knowing these dogs for the while that I did !  A great breed of dog that is fixing to loose what they once had if people dont wake up the COLOR may be the only thing left of the breed.

Hummmmm

Just the way it is !

[TexasHogDogs]

One thing about it I must agree with Waylon on this .  Am almost sure the Lacy dogs are a shell of the dogs they were when the Lacy bros owned and bred them.
If the breed was almost lost then this is another great reason why these dogs need to be gone threw and culled and only the best of the best being bred to bring back the great traits and gene pools that the Lacy bros instilled in these dogs when they started and owned the breed.  Linebreeding and Inbreeding should be done to save all of these great things the Lacy bros instilled in these dogs its the only way to save what they once had and it is the only way to get back what they once had.  Dont get me wrong on all of this yes there is some damn great lacy dogs out there great working dogs I have seen them there is  two right here but people of the breed should ban together not apart .

If there is another way to intrap and instill all of the great genes from the past other than the way I have said please let me know because it is news to me.

[Reuben]

Tbob the main thing i see wrong with your conclusions is that you cant have the best of both worlds. Theres absolutely no reason you cant have a dog that handles hogs like a stock dog and still have the nose bottom and range. That may not be what your saying but it sure sounds like it.

x2...having both is the goal.

[Reuben]

well I read the whole thread and it is a very interesting one to me...haven't seen too much action on here lately...so thanks to Waylon for stirring the POT...     

Well...they say that all dogs came from the wolf...including the great dane, mexican hairless, wiener dog, and the english bull dog to name a few breeds...

but finding good dogs in any cur breed or working breed for that matter is hard to find these days...I know there are families of good dogs out there but most are not for sale or are kept as top secret...these are the guys who have an eye for a good dog and know how to breed better dogs...

it seems to me that certain stock bred dogs can really work the stock but can not find a hog in the woods and won't stick to the track if the hog breaks bay...but when you have one that does both then you have a real hog dog...

nowadays... it seems to me that a lot of working dogs produce a low percentage of quality offspring so I don't mess with going out and gambling into getting the right pup...I would rather breed my own and pick what I want...so far I have culled 5 in a few years and I have 2 that might make it now...one will be good enough to breed because of his back ground...but that is if he makes it as a hunting dog...the other is here because he seems to be making a good dog but he lacks in the breeding department because he is 1/2 redbone  1/4 pit and 1/4 american bull dog...

I am not trying to get off track here...just trying to make a point...the lacy does not stand a chance in making a good stock dog or hunting dog if the dogs that get bred are not proven to be of the best quality physically, mentally, and performance wise...

The last lacy I have been around I wouldn't feed because he does not hunt like I like...and he wouldn't win in a baying contest...but baying contest is another thread...this lacy has a good baying style...he stands way bay and bays and does not apply any pressure...but if the hog breaks he is the first to dash in and hammer the back end on the hog and does all he can to stop the hog and then backs up and bays...I think that is a great baying style to catch hogs but he has to be able to find one first... and stick with the hog if it is a bad running hog...

[T-Bob Parker]

Tbob the main thing i see wrong with your conclusions is that you cant have the best of both worlds. Theres absolutely no reason you cant have a dog that handles hogs like a stock dog and still have the nose bottom and range. That may not be what your saying but it sure sounds like it.

x2...having both is the goal.

It's funny you draw that conclusion, because that's the exact opposite of what I mean. Lol
I knew I wouldn't word it quite right and now that the whiskers wore off let me try another stab at it.

Those three traits are great an necessary things to have, but so are intelligence, speed and working ability.
The thing I've noticed is there are cur dog guys who are worried about things like how far out Is that dog hunting or maybe their number 1 goal is a dog
With bottom or nose. Well you continue to select your dogs and make your breedings towards your natural prejudices and they become self fulfilling prophecies. Ends up with range that makes you proud wether or not all that traveling was necessary, end up with dogs who don't know they could bay the hog at his bed and will instead instinctually push the hog amd bottom him out. Blah blah on and on all great traits
If they are a mans only focus will become the ends.

Now I think I'm being more clear. If it still sounds goofy, I'll be in airports ALL day with nothin better to do than bash lacy dogs.  . Kidding kidding




Purebred, you mentioned how they can work out problems, that my friend you and I have talked about just recently and THAT IS A CUR TRAIT. There ain't no wolf in my curs and they some figuring stuff out som beeches. They won't almost never take a track the straight line way you think they should, they just skip it all together and go to the animal instead.

[Purebreedcolt]

I'm going to have to disgree on the mentality being a cur breed.  If you have never been around one you would not understand what I mean.  I'm not talking tracks or what ever but take a hot fence my female is a master escape artist she will literally stand there at it thinking how to avoid it and get out.  Just things like that.  You would truly have to be around one to understand what I mean.  Tbob your thinking smart and yes there are some durn smart dogs out there but for a dog to really think I don't see as much.

[Reuben]

Tbob the main thing i see wrong with your conclusions is that you cant have the best of both worlds. Theres absolutely no reason you cant have a dog that handles hogs like a stock dog and still have the nose bottom and range. That may not be what your saying but it sure sounds like it.

x2...having both is the goal.

It's funny you draw that conclusion, because that's the exact opposite of what I mean. Lol
I knew I wouldn't word it quite right and now that the whiskers wore off let me try another stab at it.

Those three traits are great an necessary things to have, but so are intelligence, speed and working ability.
The thing I've noticed is there are cur dog guys who are worried about things like how far out Is that dog hunting or maybe their number 1 goal is a dog
With bottom or nose. Well you continue to select your dogs and make your breedings towards your natural prejudices and they become self fulfilling prophecies. Ends up with range that makes you proud wether or not all that traveling was necessary, end up with dogs who don't know they could bay the hog at his bed and will instead instinctually push the hog amd bottom him out. Blah blah on and on all great traits
If they are a mans only focus will become the ends.

Now I think I'm being more clear. If it still sounds goofy, I'll be in airports ALL day with nothin better to do than bash lacy dogs.  . Kidding kidding




Purebred, you mentioned how they can work out problems, that my friend you and I have talked about just recently and THAT IS A CUR TRAIT. There ain't no wolf in my curs and they some figuring stuff out som beeches. They won't almost never take a track the straight line way you think they should, they just skip it all together and go to the animal instead.

good morning T-Bob...  

I reckon the bottom line is this...the dog having the ability to find a pig whether it be in its bed or heading out to the feeding/watering area...and nothing excites me more than a very smart dog that can make it look easy...I haven't seen many like that...good hunting dogs with good instincts yes I have seen plenty of those...

by the way...those are some nice looking dogs you got there...I like the looks of that first dark brindle and the red BMC gyp...

[cward]

Ok I don't want to knock anybodies dogs at all or there breed. But you take two dogs that there ears stand up ( wolf and grey hound ) and only have been breeding them for 30 years lets say ... and you don't get fuzzy big standing eared throw backs . I call bullchit on that. Cause I still get fuzzy pups out of my line every  once in a,blue moon. Just saying.

[Lacy man]

Ok I don't want to knock anybodies dogs at all or there breed. But you take two dogs that there ears stand up ( wolf and grey hound ) and only have been breeding them for 30 years lets say ... and you don't get fuzzy big standing eared throw backs . I call bullchit on that. Cause I still get fuzzy pups out of my line every  once in a,blue moon. Just saying.

That's correct and if breeders to proper breedings oh say past 100 years and rise dogs were culled possibly we woul what the lacy is today? Hmm

[Corey]

There is more difference in purpose and selection then there was in contributing breeds back then, IMHO. It doesnt much to set color traits, it the behavior and desire traits that rquire time and talent.

[halfbreed]

well i'll stir you boy's up a bit

  COULD IT BE , THAT ALL THESE GREAT DOG'S AND DOG MEN WERE THE BEST THERE WAS , BECAUSE THEY HAD NO COMPETITION AND NOT THAT MANY PEOPLE AND NOT THAT MANY DOGS . WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE LATE 1800'S EARLY 1900'S . just somethimg to think on there were way fewer people in texas. and most the land was big ranches with every one owening a few working dogs and they would usually gather in the spring and help each other with a couple dogs apiece  come time to drive to market . so you have five or six big ranches and each ranch most than likely only kept a few dogs at most . ya'll chew on that awhile  lol

[Easttex91]

well i'll stir you boy's up a bit

  COULD IT BE , THAT ALL THESE GREAT DOG'S AND DOG MEN WERE THE BEST THERE WAS , BECAUSE THEY HAD NO COMPETITION AND NOT THAT MANY PEOPLE AND NOT THAT MANY DOGS . WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE LATE 1800'S EARLY 1900'S . just somethimg to think on there were way fewer people in texas. and most the land was big ranches with every one owening a few working dogs and they would usually gather in the spring and help each other with a couple dogs apiece  come time to drive to market . so you have five or six big ranches and each ranch most than likely only kept a few dogs at most . ya'll chew on that awhile  lol

NO! there were plenty of dogs crazy wild hogs and the lacys were the best. And there weren't no stinkin catahoulas!!! 

[t.wilbanks]

I had a lacy given to me a few years back and that thing was as wild and skiddish as a coyote... Based on what I saw in that dog, I believe they did originate from coyotes...  

That dog also meet the same fate as many coyotes

[T-Bob Parker]

I had a lacy given to me a few years back and that thing was as wild and skiddish as a coyote... Based on what I saw in that dog, I believe they did originate from coyotes... 

That dog also meet the same fate as many coyotes

You mean he strapped a rocket to himself and missed the roadrunner and went SPLAT right into the side of a canyon? 

[t.wilbanks]

I had a lacy given to me a few years back and that thing was as wild and skiddish as a coyote... Based on what I saw in that dog, I believe they did originate from coyotes... 

That dog also meet the same fate as many coyotes

You mean he strapped a rocket to himself and missed the roadrunner and went SPLAT right into the side of a canyon? 

I strapped the rocket on for her, but yeah she went splat!!

I would have a better chance at making a hog dog out of the road runner

[TShelly]

[/quote]

That's correct and if breeders to proper breedings oh say past 100 years and rise dogs were culled possibly we woul what the lacy is today? Hmm
[/quote]

Seeing the lacy line today they obviously culled the wrong ones lol the ones I have seen work could use more coyote/wolf in them. Might make th halfa$$ legimate.

For all the people saying I can see "wolf" in lacys because of their high prey drive, etc.. I can see the grey hound in them bc of the slick coat and speed etc. These are simply generalizations that you could say about any cur dog

I too am in agreement that they originated from cur dogs. The line of old stock cur dogs we hunt now routinely produce blue and smoke red dOgs! So that definitely means our dogs are coyote/ wolf/ grey hound crossed right?!? Some of our pups are "CAT" quick an light on their feet, must mean we have some mountain lion in our blood LMAO

Ok I don't want to knock anybodies dogs at all or there breed. But you take two dogs that there ears stand up ( wolf and grey hound ) and only have been breeding them for 30 years lets say ... and you don't get fuzzy big standing eared throw backs . I call bullchit on that. Cause I still get fuzzy pups out of my line every  once in a,blue moon. Just saying.

You know those woodruff dogs have coyote in them lol


Until someone pulls blood on both, isolates genes and research individuals alleles in all parties proving wthout a doubt they originated from wolves I'll continue to call bs

[cward]

Ok lets say a 100 years ago. What did they breed to get there years to lay down. Blue heeler. Man im just messing with you I could really careless what they have in them. I'm not a lacey kinda guy anyway.   I do have my opinion about them but,its not what anyone wants to here.

Tony if you seen some of them shaggy dogs them Woodruff dogs have produced you think they had chow in them.lol