Few thoughts on the cow dog/hog dog correlation....

[Noah]

I've been around a few perty good, sure-e-nuff, bad to the bone cow dogs in the last couple years..... having said that, just cuz a dog can turn back a run-away, sour ass heffer, doesn't mean it translates into a good hogdog.   There's lots of great cow dogs out there that couldn't bay a smart hog to save their life.   Cattle are way different than modern hogs, and it takes a dog with S P E E D (did you notice I emphasized speed ) to shut modern hogs down quick.

I know plenty of hard core, old line cow dog breeders that have beautiful, hard working cow dogs.... that translate into nothing more than "grass patch dogs".  I E, dogs that are only effective when a hog is caught on an open plain.

Now.  I'm not saying that this genetic pool is a dead end, by any means.... it's just that I don't want people to believe that just because a dog is a "cow dog" that it automatically makes it a good hog dog prospect.

Like I said... just a few thoughts...

[Baypenbubba]

I could not have said it better.I agree 100%

[Txmason]

I agree and I have said for years that a bay pen dogs is different to a woods dog.

[Aaron BMC]

ill give txmason 100% on that on

[Wmwendler]

Depends on what your definition of a cow dog is.  You may be mistakeing what people mean when they say cow dog.  In my opinion, Any thing with long hiar is a sheep dog not a cow dog, they may call them cow dogs but they were bred for sheep work. Like collies.  And I guess you have the Austrailian Cattle dog but those are made to push cattle and I don't consider those Cow dogs at all either.  Cattle dog maybey but Cow Dog no. lol  A Cow dog to me, and probly any one else who would consider them for hog hunting, is a Cur dog breed like, Blackmouths, Catahoula, Lacy dogs, or Florida Curs.

All real cow dog work takes place outside of a pen, once the cattle are in a pen you dont need the dogs.  And its not always taking place in open pasture with gentle cattle if it was you probly would'nt need dogs.  A tried and true cow dog isn't tested or proven  baying cattle in a pen or open pasture, they are proven finding and baying rough cattle in rough country that requires they use of dogs.  Not just one spoilt heifer but the whole buch of cattle that are'nt expesially fond of
"going to the house".  All those traits that make super hog dogs are traits that a cow dog needs in order for it to be a super cow dog;  Desire, Speed, stop, finesse, hunt, bottom, and brains.  If a dog does'nt have what it takes to be a good hog dog, then I can guarantee you that I would not consider it a good cow dog either.  What makes cow dog stock work so well on hogs is thier finesse and abilty to bay groups of cattle/hogs and at the same time shut down spoilt cattle/hogs.  A hog dog might find a group of 15 hogs and if it ends up baying only one or two hogs out of 15 the hunter might not ever know the differece or even care in the first place.  And the hunter most times would be tickled to death because the dog found him a hog, even though the dog failed at getting all the hogs bayed as a group.    But if a cow dog only bayed up 8 cattle on a place that had 60 head he would be a cull before he knew it.  Just my .02

Waylon

[Circle C]

Great post Waylon!

[parker]

some  do  both most don't ......ones  bred  to  drive and  bay  what   he can see   the  other  is  bred  to find and  bay what  he  can't  see .....

[Silverton Boar Dogs]

I think there is some misunderstanding of what a cowdog does. There is no real differance in how I use a dog to hunt cattle and how I use the same dog to hunt hogs. My dogs do not ever drive cattle, there job is to hunt , track or wind cattle. They need to stop them and put them in a bunch and hold them at bay untill I get to them. A good cow dog needs to be smarter than the average hog dog and have way more handle.

Paul T

[Noah]

When I'm referring to cow dogs, I'm talking about any dog... long hair, short hair, even purple, that will find(hunt) wild cattle, bay them(bunch them), and hold them till you can get in to them to drive the herd out.  I agree that both a cow dog and a hog dog can, and should, have identical qualities... however, a cow dog can get away with much less speed than what is required of a hog dog.  Like I said, there's a lot of jam up cow dogs out there that just aren't fast enough to make a hog dog.   When you find the ones that are, then you've got something.  Just pointing the speed issue out so people don't waste time on the wrong type of dog.

[cantexduck]

Great topic.
   I cant see where a good cow dog wouldnt make a hog dog. You need the same in each to make a dog.


Noah, Sad part is the sorry grass patch cow dog pups have a better chance at making a dog then half the ones for sale right now........ Hard to find good pups.

[Noah]

Sad part is the sorry grass patch cow dog pups have a better chance at making a dog then half the ones for sale right now........ Hard to find good pups.

Very true

[Wmwendler]

I think there is some misunderstanding of what a cowdog does. There is no real differance in how I use a dog to hunt cattle and how I use the same dog to hunt hogs. My dogs do not ever drive cattle, there job is to hunt , track or wind cattle. They need to stop them and put them in a bunch and hold them at bay untill I get to them. A good cow dog needs to be smarter than the average hog dog and have way more handle.

Paul T

Well said Pual.  Cow dogs got to have brains.  Most hog dogs would catch a little baby pig given the chance, but if a cow dog did that to a baby calf thats a big no no.  lol.  The cow dog has to be smart enough to know when he's supposed to be working and when hes not.  That goes back to the handle as well.

Noah, except for the old crippled ones, the cow dogs (Curs) used around here I are about as fast as they come, you will be hard pressed to find anything much faster in a working dog.

[Circle C]

Waylon,

Is that brindle male kin to Lana?

[cward]

Well I'm going to jump in on this one I breed my dogs to work both ways I have 20 dogs on my place 13 solid working dogs every one will go both ways they all handle like champs they all will find a cow or hog they have speed very smart I can leave three baying a herd and pull two off to go find more cows.NOW AS FAR AS STOPPING A HOG ain't been out run this year caught every thing they bayed Have not been on a dry run this year they must be doing something right.I catch cattle at least 3 days a week not had a cow get away.GENTICICS makes a differents now I do cull but I don't cull but about 1 of 20 pups usally It is because it is working way better on hogs than it is on cows and I will give it to a staight hog hunter.I hog hunt about twice a week I will put my cow/hog dogs against most any hog dog will bet they will stop the hog before a regular every day hog dog.I have one dog that is what I call a CHEATER he can stop a running hog in a heart beat he does not run track for track he runs wide and puts the heat on that a$$  his daddy was that way his grandpa was that way.Yes I have worked with hart breed dogs and wetherford ben breed dog I like watching them work but would not put them in my yard.My uncle breed to a hart dog a long time ago and the puppies turned out good He culled one out of seven that did not handle the pup out worked the rest but would not handle.I do not sell dogs I am in the cow business not in the dog business when I breed I breed for me and will give the rest of the litter away.People who know me will tell you that my culls are there best dogs If a dog does not work he don't leave my PLACE I don't give a true cull away.

[craig]

well i thought i could avoid stepin in this but i put my boots on this mornin so her i go.

 and im just like everyone else all i have to base anything on is personal experiance.

you can hear about anything if you listen long enough rather it be from an old timer or someone passing along second hand info. some is usefull some is not.

none of my statements are dircted toward anyone, so dont go cyber space on me.

i have owned and used cow dogs and alot of my freinds have cow dogs (curs :bmc ,catahoula,lep,and crosses).
im talking about head dogs, dogs that stop cattle and bunch cattle.
and the dogs i wanted where dogs that had alot of intelegance(brains) a dog that looks you in the eye and trys to understand you and what you want.
i like a leggy dog won that could head a runaway cow, with the leg usually came stamina(the ability to work a long day) and speed(fast on his feet) catch up with a cow in a hurry and get her turned back to the bunch, cause you might need his help back with the bunch if the cattle arent dog broke. and usually another dog goes with so the faster their back the sooner i can carry on movin cattle.

now there are alot of other thing to add to that, just like our hog dogs some dogs are naturally rougher than other dogs, so you have to know your dogs and put together a set of dogs for the job at hand.

and then there is hunt the dog that will go out and find cattle in the brush, and just like our hog dogs some are super and some are average.

then there is handle( call off, get ahead, get out,ect,evryone has different terms.) a cow dog has to have alot more handle than a hog dog and thats what seperates a good dog from a great dog and i had a couple of really great dogs and a train load of good ones.
 guys us everything from a 22 pistol to pop of rounds,a bull whip or a shock collar to get handle. and the really good dog men where always good horsemen as well , understand the animal and how to comunnicate with them.

so i think there are alot of similar traits that i look for in my hog dogs(woods dogs), speed, stamina, handle (at least come when called  ), and hunting abilaty.

 im shure ill think of something else to add later,  my .02

  good topic.


 

[cward]

  This is gyp  that  has my old dog in her four times this gyp can fly I depend on her all you have to do is whisper to her and she nows everything you are saying one hell of a lead dog this is the dog every cow man would dream of and she will bite  your a$$ if she don't know you.she shut a herd of  9 braman cross woods cattle down in seven thousand acres drove them 2 milles to a set of pens all by herself these were cattle that the land owner was sending people in with tranc guns I penned 52 out of that place roped 15 .The man ask me what I charge to catch cattle and I told him I only charge for what I catch he said well you want get a very big check here when we got done me my wife and one other TRUE cowboy got paid.

[Noah]

Nice dog cward, hopefully I stumble on a dog like that some day.  They sound exactly like what I'm working for.

[cward]

Thanks noah were are you from.

[craig]

nice dog there cward,  thats what im talkin about.

[Noah]

Central Florida, wish I could make a living working cows... you live my dream cward