Few thoughts on the cow dog/hog dog correlation....

[Wmwendler]

I think some might under estimate cow dogs if they have not seen first hand the job they have to do.  That, and they think of your average cow as being on the tame side which might true, but not for all cattle.  On the other hand ive seen cattle you could put your hands on in the pasture that would not go in the lot at all....... Just stand at the gate and watch you pour the cubes on the ground, or you can chase them around all day with a horse and never get them penned.  Thats called spoilt but throw some dogs on the ground and let them bay and settle for a few mins. and you can drive them to the lot no problem and never go faster than a lope on your horse.

The thing is cow dogs are evaluated on several different levels, that most hog dogs are not...even the good hog dogs.   Things like handle and finesse get payed more mind in cow dogs, for one because it's more of a necessity in cowdogs and only a bonus in hog dogs.  Also, because with cow dogs you GET more of a chance to see and evaluate how the dog actually works the stock.  But in hog dogs all you get to see 90% of the time is maybe dogs baying for a few seconds before you cut the CD loose or pull the trigger.  Maybe not even that, just hear a solid bay and cut a CD loose and all you see is caught hog.  Not that all cow dogs are perfect, but that goes for any class of dogs.  You do see allot of cow dogs that lack a little hunt because now days in most places you don't really need it on cows so it does'nt come as a priority when breeding decisions are made.  But the same is true for dogs that are used exclusively on hogs...allot of times they lack finess and/or handle.  Thats where the lines that go both ways in the same litter and even same dog shine, usually they are solid all around dogs.

In a perfect world, when it comes to Cur dogs, I would want to see pups go to cow dog homes and hog dog homes from the same litter to really test the breeding and see if it was a good one or not.  That way you have a better quality control to see if the breeding is going in the right direction or not.  Just my 2 cents.

I agree with cward there have been some differences of opinion but its been a good thread and no feelings hurt....lets just keep it that way and agree to disagree.

Waylon

[Bryant]

This thread has been interesting, but here's my take.

I believe the main difference in cow dogs and hog dogs is that very few of us make our living with hog dogs, and there are probably even fewer who have a pack of cow dogs that they just use to go catch cattle for a few hours on a Saturday morning just for sport.

Due to the nature of how cow dogs work, it is imperative that they have a handle put on them that's simply just not required in hog dogs (but not saying isn't possible).  Cow dogs typically do not do a job alone, but rather they are a tool; a part of the whole package (handler, horse, etc) that all work together to get the job done. 

Hog dogs on the other hand, do not require anything other than some land to run.  Heck, I might load a couple of dogs go catch a hog and put them back in the kennels without ever saying a word to them.

There are similarities, but in my opinion there are also many differences.  For instance, in all my dogs one quality I look for is independance.  Many people might disagree, but I like a pup that's just a hair stand-offish.  I like a pup that is a little hard to catch....one that might even crawl in it's barrell when you approach the kennels.  It's been my experience that dogs like this will hunt much harder and deeper than those that always want to be by your side.  Call me crazy, but I don't feed my hog dogs for companionship.  I feed them for one thing only, and thats to leave and find me a hog when the gate opens.

I'm not knocking one or the other, in fact I know that it takes much more work to finish out a good cowdog.  Just trying to point out a few differences, and throw out some food for thought.

[Eric]

Yes it is a good thread, enjoyable read.

[got2catchem]

Byant,

Wish my hunting partner ol Dean could chime in on this a little bit. I'd be willing to bet he probally has never touched a keyboard though.

[cward]

My uncle told me the other day he was going to buy him a cumputer he was tied of hereing everyone talk about what they found on the computer.Now what is funny about this is this man is 65 years old he is a bachleor he wakes up with boots and spurs on all he can turn his hand at is cowboying!He heard everone talking about DISH SATELITE about how good it was so he usally has my wife take care of things for him but not this time.He order it and the guy came out and put it in but he found a sucker he told my uncle that he had a sourd sound  system  he had to many come in and they normally $1800 but he would sell him one for $600 so he bought it we went over to see him he told me to come see what kind of deal he got it is the same one you buy at walmart for about $400.He also has a icebox with a keg in it tape out the side thats pretty funny to.So I'm waiting on him to get a computer to see what they try to sell him!

[cantexduck]

 Awesome thread. Keep the pictures coming.


   

[ninja]

A dog that is out of a line of dogs that will find cattle in the woods, bay and catch them will make an excellent hog dog everytime, will have a handle better than most and will usually be a strong, working dog with a good nose and range.  call scott aka realdogs and ask him what tj is doing in texas and what he thinks of this line of florida cur cow dogs.  Tj is as good as it gets.  I've got his full sister, she's as good as it gets.  They are long range early starting rough bay dogs that shut down hogs.  They are pure florida cur cow dog stock.

[cantexduck]

ninja,
  are you named Sean,from Fla.?

[crackerc]

Ninja I hate to disagree with you but you stated that a cow bred cur will make an excellent  hog dog EVERY time. I don't know if thats true or not. I have had some of my dogs that wouldn't mess with a hog but were absolutely crazy over a cow. I had one called Snoop that was an aunt to my Rock and Dixie dogs, she was a littermate sister to their mother. You could ride her through palmettos full of hogs, send her and when you found her bayed she was on cows. She would go past hogs looking for cows. She was just that way from a pup, I never had to get after her to leave hogs alone. 
Now, if I had broken her off cattle, would she have done that well on hogs??? Well, lets just say I didn't want to mess up a good thing to find out!! She was the best cow dog I ever owned and a lot of local cowboys really liked her too.

[Noah]

In a perfect world, when it comes to Cur dogs, I would want to see pups go to cow dog homes and hog dog homes from the same litter to really test the breeding and see if it was a good one or not.  That way you have a better quality control to see if the breeding is going in the right direction or not.  Just my 2 cents.Waylon

I agree 110%! 

[parker]

 now  here's   two  questions ..

how  many  people  would  believe  me  if  i said  my  stock  of  hogdogs  make  just  as  good  of  cowdogs ?

now  how  many  would  believe  if  what  i  have  was  cowdogs  they  make  just  as  good  hogdogs ....?

[Noah]

I'd like to believe it, but having never seen either, I'd like to hear/see proof of it.  Might just have to try one out  if it's true!

[cward]

There is alot of curdog blood in your dogs and no matter how we look at it its still there do.I would like to consider my self a DOG man which I would consider you that way .you breed for what you want the same as I do a lot of people respect what you got if not when you go to the post with your name on it there are 40 or more post about you which non were bad! But I look at your dogs and I see something in them that I like High flanked good leg good heads do I se hustle in your dogs yes I can see it .I do beleave if I had one of your dogs that it would make a cow do are they breed for a handle maybe not BUT they sure ain't dumb did  your old black dog care as much of you as you did him oh no........ found a soft spot no I'm just kidding my main dog when I first started I would shoot a fellar over so must mean the the dog was smart.In the picture's of your dog he showed to be proud of what he was doing for you.SO YES I think your dogs would make REAL good cow dogs but do you want them to be no!Do you pride on them being good hog dogs yes!So I have never hunted behind your dogs But as a dog man they look very good and some people might say looks don't cut it maybe there right but as a breeder I do not go tell my kids to go pick any puppy out of the litter I go find the one's that I think is what I'm shooting for the best.Thanks Mr Parker for sharing you time with us!

[Pecos21]

now  here's   two  questions ..

how  many  people  would  believe  me  if  i said  my  stock  of  hogdogs  make  just  as  good  of  cowdogs ?

now  how  many  would  believe  if  what  i  have  was  cowdogs  they  make  just  as  good  hogdogs ....?

I would say you would have to show me..........on both........ 

[parker]

man  i  am  just  conversateing  with  ya;ll .......really  my  dogs  ain't  cow  type  dogs  they  bay  wrong ....would  some  make  cowdogs  yeah  .....most  NO .....  most  of  what  i raise would travel  to much  for  most  cow  hunters ......they  wouldn't  work  up  front  like a  drive  dog  should .....or  some  wouldn't .......
 i'll leave  this  thread  with  this ....  

[Pecos21]

man  i  am  just  conversateing  with  ya;ll .......really  my  dogs  ain't  cow  type  dogs  they  bay  wrong ....would  some  make  cowdogs  yeah  .....most  NO .....  most  of  what  i raise would travel  to much  for  most  cow  hunters ......they  wouldn't  work  up  front  like a  drive  dog  should .....or  some  wouldn't .......
 i'll leave  this  thread  with  this ....  

We are all just having fun.... Most of us have dogs that fit our style and that is why they are our dogs, and not on someone else's spread....... and most of us know that there are different breeds for different hunting styles.....but it is humorous to talk about it isn't it?!?!  LOL

[Circle C]

A few of the comments in this thread have got me thinking...   Is "handle" nature or nurture?  I have always pretty much associated handle in cur dogs coming from nurture and the time spent with a dog training it, but it seems like some on here have indicated that the handle is in the breeding.  Now I know some breeds are very "trainable", do y'all feel like this is the case within certain lines of cur dogs, that some are easier to put a handle on?

[Silverton Boar Dogs]

I think that a breeder can select and breed for handle, in fact I am sure of it.

[cward]

Well there is a very popoular breed of cur dog right here not far from me not going to say the name but these dog are some of the hardest working dogs you ever seen but WILL NOT HANDLE I at one time I was wanting to try to cross there dogs into mine but it did not take me long to decide that was a mistake.These dogs would slobber at the mouth bay and bunch cattle just owesome but you could not call them off you whip them with a bull whip and they would go right back to doing what they were doing before.The only way you could get the dogs to stop was to pen the cattle and then get on the ground to catch them.My brotherinlaw bought 2 dogs from this man thinking he was going to have the best hogs he lost 2 places to hunt over those dogs not listen.He wanted me to make the cross to see if we could get them to handle and I refused to make it best looking cur dogs I ever saw!So yes I beleave you can breed handle in them.

[Wmwendler]

Well there is a very popoular breed of cur dog right here not far from me not going to say the name but these dog are some of the hardest working dogs you ever seen but WILL NOT HANDLE I at one time I was wanting to try to cross there dogs into mine but it did not take me long to decide that was a mistake.These dogs would slobber at the mouth bay and bunch cattle just owesome but you could not call them off you whip them with a bull whip and they would go right back to doing what they were doing before.The only way you could get the dogs to stop was to pen the cattle and then get on the ground to catch them.My brotherinlaw bought 2 dogs from this man thinking he was going to have the best hogs he lost 2 places to hunt over those dogs not listen.He wanted me to make the cross to see if we could get them to handle and I refused to make it best looking cur dogs I ever saw!So yes I beleave you can breed handle in them.

Or breed it out them them on purpose or not.

Its hard to say about Cur dogs they don't have the typical trainability that you think of when you think of most pet bred dogs like labs and such.  The way I think of it is, a Cur dog has a strong desire to work stock and that is bred in to them (Nature).  More so, they have a strong desire to perform thier work FOR you, and WITH you which is also bred into them.  With that they are more inclined to take a handle because they understand that they are doing the work for you and instinctively look to you for direction during the work while at the same time maintaining an independent mind (Mind of thier own if you will) which is required for the type of work that they do.  Every good Cur dog ive been around definately had a mind of thier own compared to the extreem of pet bred labs which are like zombies wating for you to tell them what to do.   So I would say the handle you find in Cur dogs expecially cow dogs is a result of that desire to work for you more than it is trainability, plus the amount of work hours they put in penning cows most days of the week.  Now I've found its harder to train Cur dogs to do things like sit, or shake than it is most other dogs. And I've found it impossible to train any Cur ive ever had to fetch they just dont have the retrieving instinct.  But with enough time spent both the Curs I have in my yard know sit, shake, laydown and wait untill I say "take it" before they start eating...most of the time. lol.  But that stuff is a result of lots of repitition and if they really dont wanna do it, they wont sit or shake or lay down.  Thats why I say a Cur does'nt really have trainability they just have a desire to work FOR you.  just my .02

Waylon