Question about temperament in pitts

[ppc dogos]

A friend is hunting with a pit and dogo down in South Africa, the pit is so HEATED even after the catch that he redirect after the hog is dead towards the other dog - literally jump on the dogo
(Which is a BAD move, since the dogo is not the one saying no to a fight either, but he wont start it).
It starts to destroy the other dogs temperament too, since he is ofcouse watching his back after the catch, so the situation develops.

He has to keep them appart for at least 30-40 minutes before the pit is down again. On some few hunts he had to quit after the first pig is down.

I guess this is not very typicial for a pit ?

The pitt is 10 month only and quite a catcher already. He hunts 4-5 times a month.

Any suggestions ?

B

[Noah]

That's what they were bred for, not surprising when that trait shows up.  Sometimes you can discipline that out of them, but most of the time people just cull when you get one that hot.  Not worth putting up with an animal that may compromise your other dogs' health and training.

[shawn]

cull

[Silverton Boar Dogs]

Cull

[YOUNG HUNTER]

cull

[cward]

If he is that way to the other dog he could very easy gothat way to his owner! Had one turn on me and catch me the dog was the same way you are descibeing this one But I did not give up on pits just payed more attention to what I got from then on. I agree cull.

[Noah]

One other note, that's why alot of hunters wait to use pits until they're a little older, and you've had more time to let them mature mentally. 

Not that this is how the dog in question was raised, by any means, but....All catch from day one and no social skills greatly improves your chances of having a problem dog......like raising Mike Tyson in a cage, throwing some food in now and then, then asking him to carry himself "professionally" when you let him out.... you're already dealing with something a little twitchy to begin with

Has the owner been "really clear" to the dog that he is not allowed to do that?  Sometimes you've got to go to level 11 to make a point with those dogs. 

[Scott]

tell your friend not to give up on pits. they're not all like that. i love pits myself, but when i come across one like you described, he's a dead s.o.b.  dogs like him are the ones that give the breed a bad rap.

I don't quite understand this...the breed was selected for well over 100 years to do just that...what about that gives the breed a bad rap?

Also...dog aggression in no way shape or form correlates to human aggression.

Now can those dogs make woods dogs...for the most part, no. But, it doesn't mean that the dogs aren't stable and require being pts.

Most true APBTs that make woods dogs are at best considered "cold" historically speaking. Cold = never turned on regarding dog aggression.

[pig snatcher]

What Scott said is correct.  Was going to type a simmilare statement but he beat me to it.

[Jeff]

ok, so if he was socialized properly and shown that the handler is alpha, and still doesnt want to cooperate, he should at least be castrated, but i myself would take him to the vet for euthanasia.

your definition of "cold" in my eyes means properly socialized and disciplined.  most folks don't realize how smart pits are and how obedient they CAN be.  imo, dogs that are truly "game" (gonna fight regardless of what the handler is doing) should be eliminated from the gene pool, through castration or euthanasia.

there are way too many good, level headed pits out there to use a game bred idiot as a pack dog.

[jdt]

i never owned a pit , but if that stuff gets started it s dam hard to stop .  could get the whole pack to trying to figure out whos better than who and THAT is a disaster ! i ve seen it happen. and then your feeding several dogs and have to figure out who can work with who , and wind up short handed .if you cant stop it early , the best thing to do is eliminate the problem and hope its not contagious

[Jeff]

one more thing

saying that all pits are game bred to the same degree is like saying any bmc can find pigs as good as the next.  JUST NOT TRUE.

[Scott]

ok, so if he was socialized properly and shown that the handler is alpha, and still doesnt want to cooperate, he should at least be castrated, but i myself would take him to the vet for euthanasia.

your definition of "cold" in my eyes means properly socialized and disciplined.  most folks don't realize how smart pits are and how obedient they CAN be.  imo, dogs that are truly "game" (gonna fight regardless of what the handler is doing) should be eliminated from the gene pool, through castration or euthanasia.

there are way too many good, level headed pits out there to use a game bred idiot as a pack dog.

Historically speaking, a properly socialized and disciplined APBT does not equal, nor is it the definition of a "cold" dog. The term game does not mean a dog is gonna fight...it means that it won't quit, even when given the opportunity, when it's having it's ass handed to 'em.

How do you think that all those "good, level headed pits" came to be that way? It was because of the over 100 years of selecting on dogs that were bred for combat in search of gameness.

Dog aggression is inherent with the breed...some dogs have more than others. We have had good success when raising them from pups to be catchdogs...and by letting them know as pups that any dog aggression whatsoever will not be tolerated. Does it always work, no, but that doesn't mean it can't be a stable companion...it just won't make a woods dog.

one more thing

saying that all pits are game bred to the same degree is like saying any bmc can find pigs as good as the next.  JUST NOT TRUE.

Please explain "game bred to the same degree". The reality is that there are very few, if any, game bred dogs today...the term game bred infers that the sire and dam of the dog were proven game...there is no legal way to do that. What we have today is dogs being produced from game bred lines. What's more, an old gamedog man once said..."don't be surprised when they quit, be surprised when they don't". That quote speaks to how elusive the trait of being game was.

[ppc dogos]

Thanks ALL for your replies. I understand your points. I guess as in every breed there are extremes in both directions.
I am sure he will cull the dog after your replies.

He gave the dog until "11" every time he did it, it almost made it worse, and as some of you pointed out, could be dangerous for the owner too. A dog who loose trust to man is BAD.

I can only speak about the dogo,who also among other breeds have fighting dog in him.
Many dogos who are NOT used for hunting have a passion for fighting. We got one 3 years old, was a passionate fighter, seeked other males confrontation, after his agression was directed to the boar a couple of times, it was over. He now hunts with other males aroud him.
BUT at home, it is not possible to let him be around other male dogs.

Thanks,

B

[Jeff]

the original pit bulls were butcher's dogs in england before they were selected for dog aggression.  they had enough prey drive and game to lock on to a grown bull's nose, cork screw their body, and put that bull on the ground for the butcher. that was before they were ever used for fighting.

i think we should work to take the dog aggression back out of them, while leaving the high prey drive and "gameness" in them.  the word "game" is used in different ways by different people. the way i used it i was referring to dog aggression.  if you ask a scum bag, i mean dog fighter, what game means.  he'll tell you the dog will still scratch even when he's almost dead.  A dog that will bleed out while holding a pig, but won't scratch, is not game in his eyes, but i guess it is in yours. i have a good vocabulary and strong command of the english language, thanks anyway.

you say dog aggression shows up in different levels in different dogs.  i agree, and i think a dog hellbent on fighting other dogs has no place in a hunting pack.

human aggression in NOT the ONLY thing that gives the breed a bad rap.

[Jeff]

that's all im gonna say, ppc i apologize i was not trying to hijack your thread.

[Scott]

Just a couple of quick rebuttle points (as I, also, didn't mean to hijack the thread).

The original bulldog was a butchers dog...the original Pit Bull Terrier was bred and developed for the pit. Of course, it sprang from the butchers/baiting dogs that were then crossed with terriers.

I'll agree that "game" or "gameness" is a term that is utilized (or misused) in different ways...but, there really is only one definition of game. While we may find the historical practice of matching dogs distasteful, it is part of the breeds history and what made/makes a well bred APBT a stable, unfailingly loyal dog that can complete most any task asked of it.

I never questioned your vocabulary or command of the English language...just trying to understand your point of view.

IMO what gives the breed a bad  rap is that probably 90% of the folks that own/breed them have no business doing so in the first place.

[ppc dogos]

No problem Jeff, this is very educating to me. It is the first time I see a honest and open disucssion about this.

Thanks Guys!

B

[gator]

IMO what gives the breed a bad  rap is that probably 90% of the folks that own/breed them have no business doing so in the first place.

I agree with that, and your other points are also well said.

[got2catchem]

For the most part, I try to stay away from these HOT topics but, here lately I have been seeing a couple things that are a little uneasy for the most part and I thought I would give another perspective....

Some of us need to realize that some things that use to be accepted or not thought of in such a bad light just isnt the case anymore. Dog fighters are called scum bags. Chicken fighters are called scum bags. Some deer doggers in Tx are called scum bags and unethical hunters. Guess What....Hog doggers sometimes get called scum bags too.

The only difference between all the things I listed above is that hog doggers can still enjoy their weekend hobby for some, way of life for others, or passion legally, but the others were all legal and accepted at one time also, the same as we accept hog dogging and want other people to accept it. It may be suprising to some of us, but chicken fighting was legal , not that long ago. Alot of people thought deer dogging would never be outlawed, but it happened. I hope hog dooging never becomes illegal but with some of the idiots these days giving us such a bad rap. We may fall out of the favor of the public also. Thats really the importance of why you have to be careful of what you post on the WWW.
 
People brought their families to watch dog matches and chicken fights, just like we take ours to a bay trial. Again it was different times and a different way of thinking, we have to realize that some of it was as accepted as hog dogging is to us today.

Sometimes I asked myself, how long before hog dogging isn't accepted anymore and we have to become criminals to keep doing what we love to do.

Every group above has it's bad apples who give them a bad name. The ones who tresspass, do not take care or their animals, brag about how ruthlessly they cull, do not give their animals proper medical attention, those are the ones giving us a bad name and those are the ones that I would call scum bags...