Pen Dog? - June bremond bay

[WAARHEID]

I decided to go ahead and make the trip to bremond, and bring two girls with me. The gyp I promissed nosights I would bring and a bitch who is fresh off of a litter. Both have been on plenty of hogs, both in training/running pens and huntin in the woods, the bitch is three years older than the gyp and has done a lot more hunting, been run on dry ground and off of airboats, and been on a lot more hogs - she is a bit grittier though, and has the cuts to prove it.

I got there pretty late in the day, long after the puppy classes, in the middle of the first two dog class (can't remember if it was pro/am) but they kept the entries open for each class until the previous class ended, so I still had time to enter them, so I decided to enter them in singles.

The short version: They both acted the fool. Both ran after the hog like they were going to go to work, gave a bit of voice and that was about it.

The longer version: The bitch was off again, on again... but mostly off. The few times that the hog would trot off, she'd nip it to try to force it to turn around, but that was about it. She kept looking back at me like "What am I supposed to do?"

Out the gate the gyp rushed the hog, got rolled pretty hard, backed up, and then basically broke off. After not too long, the hog figured she was done and sat down, lol!!! From that point on pretty much she was busy looking at the attendants, kids outside the pen, and at me, confused. I told the attendant to scratch it with plenty of time on the clock, he asked "Are you sure?!?!" I said "Yep... I'm sure."


So here's my questions:

I've done a lot of dog work in a lot of different places, with a lot of different dogs... but I've never been to a bay pen competition, neither have any of my dogs. A guy approached me after the runs and told me that he thought that they may just not be "pen dogs". I didn't know what to make of this idea. Is there a difference? I know they can hold their own in the woods, but are there really some dogs that just won't operate in a competition pen environment? What the heck is a "pen dog"? Is there really a difference between a dog that you compete and a dog that you hunt, shouldn't they be the same dog?

One thing I noticed was that the competition pen environment was very distracting for them, especialy the gyp. But one thing I also noticed was that they both were losing their minds trying to get to the hogs from outside of the pen when they saw another dog working the hog. Almost like seeing the other dog working the hog got them past the distractions and focused on wanting that hog. I thought that was interesting. I talked real breifly with TrueBlue who told me that she had a dog that had a real strong run in the two dog earlier in the day, but that same dog didn't do very well at all in one dog... What would ya'll attribute something like that to?


I really enjoyed the TDHA championship bay competition. I enojyed watching the dog work, especially a pair of cats that put on what was in my mind, a simply phenominal bay.

I enjoyed the relatively laid back and friendly environment... I'll post more on that in a day or two when I can post some pictures.

I enjoyed giving some of my dogs a chance to have a totally new/different experience, even f they did act the fool lol!!! I think I would be willing to let them try it again, just to see if they'll figure it out... but maybe next time I should enter them in two dog to see if they can help each other focus?

Well... now for the long drive back to Missouri.

Thanks ya'll, it was fun. 

[Big T]

Waarheid,
I have know dogs that were both ways.  I have a good friend who has a male BMC who is the best woods dog I have ever hunted with.  However, if you put this dog in a pen with a hog (even a small pig) he will jump or climb out of the pen to get away from the hog.  In the woods he is gritty and confident, but in the pen he acts like a totally different dog.  This same friend also purchased a cat gyp at a bay who put on a great show in the pen.  When we took her hunting though, she would not leave your side!  She acted like she had never been in the woods before.  Needless to say, he now only uses her for bay pen compititions and producing GREAT pups who will work in the pen or in the woods.

I have found that it is rare to have a dog who is equally as good in the pen as they are in the woods or the other way around.  If you have a dog that will do both well, then  you really have something.
JMO.

[DIAMOND A KENNELS]

I HAVE SEVERAL DOGS THAT WILL NOT BAY IN A PEN BUT ARE AWESOME WOODS DOGS. AND I HAVE ALSO STARTED DOGS IN A PEN BEFORE WHEN THEY WERE PUPPYS AND THEY WORKED GOOD BUT WHEN I STARTED HUNTING THEM THEY WOULD NO LONGER BAY IN A PEN.  U CAN DEFFINETLY TELL THE DIFFERENCE IN A PEN DOG AND A TRUE WOODS DOG. A PEN DOG BAYS SO TIGHT AND ARE RUFF 4 THE MOST PART . A WOODS DOG IS SMART THEY STAND BACK AND BAY SO THEY DONT GET IN A BIND. A PEN DOG ALSO DONT HAVE 2 WORRY ABOUT ANYTHING LIKE SLEWS BOGS SWAMPS TREES CREEKS BRIAR THICKETS OR ANYTHING ELSE LIKE THAT IN A PEN SO THEY BAY CONFIDENT IN KNOWING THEY CAN GET OUT OF THE WAY. BUT A WOODS DOG BAYS LOOSE BECAUSE HE HAS 2 LOOK OUT 4 HIMSELF AND OTHER DOGS . I SEEN SOME DOGS IN THAT BAYING THAT ARE NOTHING BUT PEN DOGS AND THEY WOULD NOT MAKE IT LONG IN THE WOODS WITH THE RIGHT HOG AND THICKET BAYING THAT CLOSE AND RUFF AND STILL THINKING THEY WERE IN THE CLEAR IT WOULD ONLY TAKE ONE GOOD HIT.AND HOGS OUT IN THE WOODS DONT GET THERE TEETH FILED DOWN OR BROKE OFF UNLIKE PEN HOGS BEFORE U BAY THEM.IN THE WOODS U TAKE EM HOWEVER U CATCH THEM. I HAVE DOGS THAT WILL ALSO WORK GREAT IN A PEN BUT IT IS NOT WHAT THE JUDGES ARE LOOKING 4 I DONT HAVE THE TIME OR THE WANT 2 TO PUT MY DOG IN A PEN EVERY DAY 2 MAKE HIM A PEN DOG DONT GET ME WRONG ITS FUN BUT I LIKE HUNTING BETTER AND DONT FEEL BAD ABOUT UR DOGS U WERE NOT THE ONLY ONE THERE WHOS DOGS DONE THAT SAME THING. IT TAKES ALOT OFF TIME GETTING THEM USED 2 DISTRACTIONS AND ALOT OF HAULING THEM 2 PLACES.  ALSO IF U WANT 2 GET INTO IT I WOULD TALK 2 JUSTIN OF THE ''WORMYDOGKENNELS'' HE IS MORE INTO PEN DOGS AND HAS GOOD PEN DOGS AND COULD HELP U OUT IN GETTING INTO IT

[TrueBlueLacys]

Mis Brooks, a Lacy breeder, wrote this blog post about the difference between bay pen and woods dogs. Obviously it focuses on Lacys, but I think it does a nice job of comparing the disciplines: http://workinglacys.wordpress.com/2009/01/05/venues-of-the-hog-dog/.

The TDHA Benefit was only Sadie's fifth bay competition. She is a woods dogs and definitely likes to have a pack baying with her. Plus she feeds off the commotion produced by wild hogs. If they stand there in a pen, she gets looser and starts to lose focus. I also think the crowd of strangers makes her a little uncomfortable.

I was pleased with her performance in the Two Dog. She has a long way to go, but she looped less and got decent scores from both judges. We also hadn't been there very long, she was still fresh and so were the hogs. By the time we got to the One Dog, she'd spent a lot of time in the heat barking at the pen, and the pigs were moving a lot less with the rising temperatures. But I think the biggest problem was she didn't have a buddy backing her up. So she ran in ready to go, but when the hog didn't move much and she didn't have another dog to feed off of, she looped back to the gate and decided to bark from there I decided to scratch her. If she wants to stay in the pen, she has to do her job. With a little more practice, I think she'll do fine in the One Dog, but it's a very different experience from baying up in the woods with a pack.

Dogs don't generalize well. A classic obedience example is just because they can sit in an apartment doesn't mean they'll sit in the yard. Same goes for baying a pig. In my opinion, dogs will see it as two separate activities, so they may perform differently depending on the environment. Plus the best bay pen dogs have different strengths than the best woods dogs and vice versa. If you want the world's best strike dog or the world's best pay pen dog, I think those are two distinctly different dogs. But I also don't see any reason you can't run a woods dog at a baying, you just might not win every time out.

[L3Outdoors]

Just my two cents not trying to offend anyone. I have never seen a Ridgeback that looked good in a pin. The dogs have a lot of sight hound to them and it just doesn't turn them on. The hog has to run before they get turned on. If you noticed yesterday your dogs only got interested when the hog turned its back to the dog and started walking away. This is the sight hound showing up and if that hog would have had room to run from the dog it would probably be all over it. My Ridgebacks have all been straight catch, but they will not run in and hit a bedded hog. They always make it run first and hit it after it runs a few feet. All the other breeds I have worked with will hit a hog laying down in its bed and never wait for it to get up. True Blue is very right it is distracting, but you have to ask your self this about your dogs. If they get distracted with that do you want to hunt with dogs that may loose focus if something isn't right when you come into the bay? Not trying to offend its just my take on them after hunting and training a lot of Ridgebacks.

[WAARHEID]

Just my two cents not trying to offend anyone. I have never seen a Ridgeback that looked good in a pin. The dogs have a lot of sight hound to them and it just doesn't turn them on. The hog has to run before they get turned on. If you noticed yesterday your dogs only got interested when the hog turned its back to the dog and started walking away. This is the sight hound showing up and if that hog would have had room to run from the dog it would probably be all over it.

No worries L3, no offense taken. I asked for feedback... so it would be hypocritical of me to get offended by a sincere and polite response. Thank you for that by the way. I'll admit my perspective is different, but that doesn't give me any right to get mad just because we might see things a bit differently.

It's my understanding that L3 has been in Ridgebacks for good while, atleast a decade or two. I certainly respect the opinion/observation of anyone that has been in their chosen breed that long. I would imagine that in that time you have seen and learned a lot about the breed.

For my part, I've been in the breed just over ten years now. So while I have never been to a bay comp before, it's not exactly my first rodeo either. I've been with lots of Ridgebacks with lots of different backgrounds and pedigrees. I've observed these dogs in training round pens and wooded pens; on penned game including raccoons, coyotes, hogs, and black bears. And while I'll freely admit that I've seen lots of them that never get gamey, I've also seen plenty that do extremely well and instinctively begin to attempt to bay em up. For some it takes several exposures, for others they seem to "get it" the first time out. So I guess what I'm saying is that I actually have seen lots of Ridgebacks that looked good in a pen... just never in a bay comp pen.

My Ridgebacks have all been straight catch, but they will not run in and hit a bedded hog. They always make it run first and hit it after it runs a few feet. All the other breeds I have worked with will hit a hog laying down in its bed and never wait for it to get up.

Yes indeed some ridgebacks are gritty enough to be catchy, but some Ridgbacks show discretion and will bay:

If they get distracted with that do you want to hunt with dogs that may loose focus if something isn't right when you come into the bay? Not trying to offend its just my take on them after hunting and training a lot of Ridgebacks.

I guess would tend to disagree that it's a breed specific issue for a couple of reasons, but here are the main two:

1) I agree that there is a good amount of sighthound behind the breed but I wouldn't describe them as sighthounds, in fact, the U.S. registries are the only registries that classify them this way. In both europe and in south africa they are classified as FCI group 6.3 - related to scenthounds. see:

http://old.fci.be/nomenclatures_detail.asp?lang=en&file=group6#section3

So are they a sighthound or a scenthound? Who knows? Personally I feel they are more like a cur-dog than either a true sighthound or a true scenthound.

2) I saw lots of dogs, of lots of different breeds turn in three different types of performances at that bay comp. Some were good bayin dogs, some caught-out, and some acted the fool. Mine acted the fool for sure, but so did several BMC's, cats, lacys, and crosses. If it was really about the breed, then there shouldn't have been any other breeds that acted the same way, but there were plenty that acted just as confused or distracted or were as lacking in focus at the bay and/or only showed interest mostly when the hog moved or was being pushed around by the attendants (and they weren't sighthound related breeds either). Again, there were plenty of dogs of different breeds that gave similar performances to the two girls I entered, so I'm just doubtful that is was a breed specific issue.

That said, it was my first bay comp, so I don't really know yet. Me thinks that I need to get to a few more bay comps this year and try to get it figured out!   

[WAARHEID]

Dogs don't generalize well. A classic obedience example is just because they can sit in an apartment doesn't mean they'll sit in the yard. Same goes for baying a pig. In my opinion, dogs will see it as two separate activities, so they may perform differently depending on the environment.

I've been thinking more about this whole thing and realized that TrueBlue may have a good point about context and generalization (or a lack of it) for a dog ... there were quite a few things that made this experience very differnt for this pair that I entered as singles.

- they've both been in training pens before and worked hogs good in the pen... but never by themselves. There has always been other dogs in the pen that they knew, and I've also always personally been in the pen with them.
- they've never been in a pen surrounded by strangers... both attendants in the pen, and spectators surrounding the pen.

I guess the rules wouldn't allow me to go into the pen with them, but I'm really wondering if I should make their next bay comp experience a two-dog entry to add something familiar to the mix?

I don't know... I still have more questions than answers.

[Circle C]

WAARHEID,

    Last month we put our Lizzie dog in the pen at Bremond. I should have "scratched" her, as she did about as much baying as she did looking out, but I wanted to see how she handled the hog. She kept the hog "bayed" away from the fence, not backed up in a corner. Now she tried the hog a time or two, and he was more than she could control, so she backed off and held him at "bay".  Lizzie did all I needed to see to know there is no reason to put her back in the bay pen. She shines in the woods. Uses enough pressure to hold them, but not too much pressure to make them run. She will try a hog, and if she can hold it, it's caught, if not, she backs up an bays...That's all I need in a dog in the woods.   Now here is the part that was funny to me...I get her out of the pen and a guy comes up to me and says "I wouldn't hunt that dog in the woods without a Garmin, you will never know if she is bayed"  I don't think he understands "pressure". When a dog looks out, it relieves pressure, when a dogs stops baying a few moments, it too relieves pressure. I would rather have a dog that understands that and doesn't do so well in a baypen contest, than a dog that bays six inches from the hogs face, and only holds the hog because it's backed into a corner.

    I guess what I am trying to say is that you can have a great dog in the woods, that will not score worth a flip in the bay pen....Two different styles to me.

[L3Outdoors]

You should try the dogs in a quiet pin without anyone around as singles, and then in doubles. The next bay comp you go to run them in every event they can be run in and observe what they do. If they act different in the singles and hard in the doubles then as a breeder you will know that these dogs are help dogs and not a dog that has the personal drive to hunt away from other dogs. As a breeder I feel that if the dogs will only hunt in a pack they are help dogs at most. These dogs will never have the drive to make great strike dogs and follow there nose if it leads them away from comfort of the pack. In my eyes the Ridgeback is a pet owner ruined breed. As breeders if we ever want this dog to get back to the way it was it will take some HARD culling and never allow anything but the very best dogs to breed. I feel each dog should be tested for many years to see if they have the drive to hunt without help from any other dogs. Then you will know very quick if you are breeding help dogs, or great strike dogs. A dog that's trained to hunt alone will always hunt with a pack, but a pack dog may not hunt at all alone. This drive to hunt alone and not stop a hot trail because the rest of the pack took of in the other direction is what makes a good strike dog. Its one thing for a dog to quit a hot trail to honor a bay, but its a bad thing if the dog quits a hot sent because he has gotten to far away from the comfort of his pack.

[catchrcall]

I'm just not convinced that you can evaluate a dogs hunting performance or potential based only on what they do in a pen.  Both my grown bay dogs do just fine in the woods,  neither will do squat in a pen.  either one is able to keep a hog bayed by themselves in the woods.    On dogs that are wiling to work in a pen, it's definately fun to watch but if i was trying to decide weather or not to keep a dog, its performance in a pen would not be the deciding factor. 

[Monteria]

I guess would tend to disagree that it's a breed specific issue for a couple of reasons, but here are the main two:

1) I agree that there is a good amount of sighthound behind the breed but I wouldn't describe them as sighthounds, in fact, the U.S. registries are the only registries that classify them this way. In both europe and in south africa they are classified as FCI group 6.3 - related to scenthounds. see:

http://old.fci.be/nomenclatures_detail.asp?lang=en&file=group6#section3

So are they a sighthound or a scenthound? Who knows? Personally I feel they are more like a cur-dog than either a true sighthound or a true scenthound.

2) I saw lots of dogs, of lots of different breeds turn in three different types of performances at that bay comp. Some were good bayin dogs, some caught-out, and some acted the fool. Mine acted the fool for sure, but so did several BMC's, cats, lacys, and crosses. If it was really about the breed, then there shouldn't have been any other breeds that acted the same way, but there were plenty that acted just as confused or distracted or were as lacking in focus at the bay and/or only showed interest mostly when the hog moved or was being pushed around by the attendants (and they weren't sighthound related breeds either). Again, there were plenty of dogs of different breeds that gave similar performances to the two girls I entered, so I'm just doubtful that is was a breed specific issue.

1) the only reason that the US registries classify the Ridgsback as a sight hound is because they can express the double gait required for sight hound competitions. As in many cases, the US registries have Ridgebacks mis-classified for the benefit of breeders who want to compete and title dogs that couldn't ever cut it in the real world through a simulated discipline. Hare coursing is for greyhounds and whippets, not cur type dogs like the Ridgeback but breeders wanted to title, they express the required double gait and it makes the registries $$$$$ so there you go.

2) your absolutely correct. The distinction is not between breeds. It is between trained and practiced disciplines. Some woods dogs are not effected by the change of environment, that has been proved time and time again but by and large, they are the exception, not the rule.

Dogs don't generalize well. A classic obedience example is just because they can sit in an apartment doesn't mean they'll sit in the yard. Same goes for baying a pig. In my opinion, dogs will see it as two separate activities, so they may perform differently depending on the environment.

I've been thinking more about this whole thing and realized that TrueBlue may have a good point about context and generalization (or a lack of it) for a dog ... there were quite a few things that made this experience very differnt for this pair that I entered as singles.

- they've both been in training pens before and worked hogs good in the pen... but never by themselves. There has always been other dogs in the pen that they knew, and I've also always personally been in the pen with them.
- they've never been in a pen surrounded by strangers... both attendants in the pen, and spectators surrounding the pen.

I guess the rules wouldn't allow me to go into the pen with them, but I'm really wondering if I should make their next bay comp experience a two-dog entry to add something familiar to the mix?

I don't know... I still have more questions than answers.

She is correct, you are correct, yes and don't we all

Steve

[BarrNinja]

WAARHEID,

I sure wish I could have visited with you as well as a lot of others at the baying but I got roped in to running the stop watch/pen gate until 3:30 and then I had to hightail it home for my daughters surprise party 2 hours away.
I believe you are a class act and Im glad you participate on this board. Thanks to you and others for coming out in support of TDHA!

Im no expert where baypens and baypen dogs are concerned but I have observed some very interesting things in Bremond.

First and foremost is with the "woods dogs" and their handlers.
Some handlers would bring their best woods dogs to the baypen gate expecting them to win it all wile others just wouldn't expect them to do anything. Others simply didnt know what to expect out of their dogs at all. Pretty much the same as the puppy bay handlers.

From what I witnessed, almost all of them (the handlers) had one thing in common.

Surprise!!!

I wish I had a dollar for everyone I heard say " never seen em do that before" or some variation of that statement at least!

Some were happy with their dogs performance but most were just shocked, embarrassed, or disappointed.

From what I can tell is that the best "woods dog" in the world may not be worth 2 cents in a baypen competition.
On the other hand they just may win everything they compete in on a given day. I think it just depends on the dog.

Its like Hollywood Cowboys. A few great cowboys have tried there hand at acting like a cowboy in the movies but ended up sucking at it! lol. But others have done a great job! Sorry Tye!

I love to see the dogs dig in and work in that pen but I would never judge one on its pen performance (good, bad, or ugly) for what I use them for. The woods!

[BarrNinja]

One other thing on baypen dogs.

Some of the handler's / owners of the best performers Ive seen in the pro dog events have told me their dogs have never even been in the woods or hunted with.

Thats just another observation in my very limited baypen experience.

[L3Outdoors]

Maybe I have stricter requirements of my dogs because I hunt them alone and it takes a special dog to excel at it, but my train of thought is that if a dog does good in the pin and not in the woods don't breed it. If the dog does good in the woods and not in a pin don't breed it( a quite pin not a comp). If a dog does good in the woods and in the pin then breed it and only then. A hog is a hog and my dogs better act the same no madder where that hog may be. You also have to keep in mind that we have been talking about Ridgebacks a dog that has lost its hunting roots and some breeders are trying to bring that back. This dog needs to be breed and culled until only hunting dogs are left, but that will never happen so as a hunting breeder you must do every thing you can to make sure every dog you breed is a perfect hunting dog before you breed them.

[Cull Buck]

Same thing happened to us.  We have woods dogs and put them in a pen for the first time a couple of wks ago.  One thing I've noticed in the pen is the dogs feed off the pig's energy. If he is lively and rank as all get out the dogs do awesome.  They lock in, crank up the tempo and get to work just like they would in the woods.  If they get a worn out pig that just wants to lay there in the mud(like the one we drew in bremond) they just don't bay as hard, they start to get bored real quick, and they start to give you the "Daddy, you want me to bay this? Its already half dead" look.  Where as a seasoned bay pen dog would have stood there in front of that hog and bayed for a solid two minutes just like its been trained and scored pretty good.  

[Monteria]

It all depends on your goal as a breeder doesn't it? If you want to breed bay pen dogs, breed bay pen dogs. If you want to breed woods dogs, breed woods dogs. If you want to breed for both, breed dogs who excel at both.

PS: a "pin" is a piece of solid material (as wood or metal) used especially for fastening things together or as a support by which one thing may be suspended from another. IE a hair pin, safety pin or tie pin.

A Pen is an enclosure for animals or a small place of confinement or storage. IE a hog pen, cattle pen or bull pen.

I don't mean to be an ass. Grammar, more specifically improper grammar, is a pet peeve of mine. Reading "pin" in place of "pen" is like hearing fingernails on a chalk board to me. I hope that you're not offended.

Steve

[cantexduck]

Steve, you are rite( or is it right?). Anyways, if you hunt in the woods get a woods dog. If you want to win trophys then get a pen/pin dog. I wouldnt look for one that does both WELL.

[Bryant]

Typically the qualities desired in a pen dog, are not desired in a woods dog.  Two complete different animals in my mind and each should be bred as such.

As with ANYTHING else in life, there are exceptions but that's not the rule.

I've personally seen my share of (older) good (some even great) woods dogs that would look at you stupid if you put them in a pen. 

[jhy]

Most of my woods dogs will walk right by a penned hog and not pay any attention to it.  I did have a pen dog that was a winner until he got catchy on the rear.  I took him and made a help dog out of him.  Then one day I was going to a bay and decided to take him to see how he would do.  Soon as I put him in there he came back over and sat right next to me.  The woods teaches dogs a lot about hogs along side my getting on to them for fooling with a caught hog.

Joey