Tips for training a bay pen dog

[TrueBlueLacys]

I don't know if this is a taboo topic or not because I've never seen a post on it, but thought I'd ask to test the waters.

Specifically I'm curious about any tips or techniques for training an older dog that already hates pigs. My Lacy is a woods dog, but I like going to bays, and I have enough of a competitive streak that I'd like to score well if I enter her. We've been to four bays and she's improved every time. But as I said in another post, she needs more focus, and a set of cajones for the One Dog. She's not afraid, I just don't think she totally gets the concept of baying by herself in front of a crowd of strangers. Her looping and me-too attitude are fine in the woods, she is always running with at least one other bay dog, but that doesn't really work in the pen.

I do have a place I can practice on the weekends, but she does a heck of a lot better there, probably because she is comfortable in that environment. So what would you do? I don't expect a miracle cure, I'd just like to have fun at the bays and maybe place every so often, and I'm willing to put time in to do that.

[coach]

Tell you what if you call Roger in Pearsall he may be able to help you out. Realistic that is what the breed does. They really aren't the in your face type of dog. You will find some here or there but sometimes you  got what you got. Seems to me you like the dog or you wouldn't have it. Your dog will stay alive alot longer doing what it does right now. I personally would be happy with that. My best wood dog will hardly bay in a pen guess she feels to enclosed but I guess that's why she is 8yrs old and still with me while the rest have been laid to rest.

[Txmason]

Julia,
Most good pen dogs aren't woods dogs.
Takes practice every day to keep a good pen dog turned up to see nothing but the hog it's baying.  Also don't over bay your dog in practice, bay for the 2 minutes and call it out on a good note.  Some dogs take to it and some just have to spend more time with.
If your every out my way could spend some time with you and tell you a few things and show you also.
Best thing if you have a place to practice is to do just that, turn on aradio and anything else so they get use to noise.

Good luck.

[coach]

I started thinking last night and remembered to tell you you might want to get hold of Mr. Mason and low and behold he answered you. I might drop a dog off at a fellers house that has a pen but I make sure they are retired. Have enough time on their hands to work the dog for me in the pen and out. I know with my schedule sometimes I don't even due my own dogs any justice.

[Tusk Hunter]

Im new to training my dogs in the bay pen, but I will share what ive found,

Iv been throwing this gyp in a pen with other dogs barking all around the pen, this has helped with her not looking out. sometimes I will go to where shes baying and talk over her back, she used to look out to me alot but now she dont even care im there, she just bays, shes very quickly got used to the other dogs and me talking and it doesnt affect her performance anymore. I bayed her out at the mccoy bay and she scored almost perfect. not bad for the first bay contest.
As far as teaching her to bay I havnt done anything, Like its been posted already I think thats just the breed.

Hope this helps.
Chris

[uglydog]

Julie you have some good tips. I am of the belief that a "GREAT" baypen dog is born not made just like a hunting dog. They can learn to get better with work and time, however when I say great I mean a dog that consistently bays a perfect score twenty or more times in a row, does not matter what pen, what state or if it five minutes or two, perfect bays mean no mistakes consistently. I prefer hunting he woods but I paid my dues in the pen competition also. I have had some good ones, some junk and a couple of great ones that have made alot of money, won bunches of trophies and won a a fancy aluminum dog box for a 4 month series of perfect bays.

My biggest tip is this a dog won't stay bayed in front of a hog that sits perfectly still, then it won't be a "money earner" and I would either decide to get another dog that will work, or decide I like my dog enough to do it just because I enjoy being involved and watching the dogs work.

Alot of the looping out is because either a dog is being charged and does not know how to get out of the way, or a dog that has too much anxiety / frustration and wants some action. Most woods dogs look out/over their shoulder that is the nature of the dog and is not trained out of a dog.

[cetchdawg]

i have been searching everywhere about this subject !! can anyone please go over some more info !! ive only been to the bays that were in okeechobee a few years back !! and it seems like it has changed a lil bit??
what do the judges look for ??
is there pen regs like size?
is it better to cast the dog right away or hold him for a particular momment?
things like that is what im interested in?? just lil dos and donts!!



Thanks
chaz

[Pecos21]

I have won the old and young and the puppy bay (with my ex-girfriend) at Uncle Earl's and have won several bayings at Groesbeck, Bremond (the old Bremond), and placed at Otis Weems, Full Boar and Dave Alexander's bayings.....The dog either has it or it doesn't...I have practiced and practiced and practiced dogs and hauled them to bayings.....and have done nothing more than donate to the cause and had fun.....  The dogs that had it...... I knew they had it and they won and placed.....The same with Maver!ck's dogs and Bud Harding and Bill Huff's dogs....we knew they were going to make after a few bayings. If you enjoy the competition and the fellowship then it isn't a big deal. But you ask any of the guys I used to haul up and down the road with and against..... i.e. the 3 I mentioned before, Reggie Little, Dave Alexander, Reg Skains, Gary Bell, Otis Weems......and the list goes on....when you have that special dog you will know...... 

[kaycee]

I really enjoyed this thread Julie, especially seeing different peoples opinions.  I agreed with several parts of their responses.  Yes, I do believe that a great dog has to be bred that way but I also believe that if you don't work and train that dog right it will never reach its full potential.  Just like in the woods it takes alot of work and time to have a great pen dog. I think that for some dogs all the time and training you can put in them will never make them great. So for me they either have it or they don't, but if they do have it, your job as a handler is to bring out the best in the dog.  Its not just knowing your dog either, you need to quickly assess the hog when it comes out, determine how to handle your dog on that hog to showcase it at its best, and know how hard and how far you can push your dog. For alot of people they think its just turning a dog loose and watching, ask Gilbert if there's not a big difference in the way the dogs are handled from the people consistantly taking home trophies.  I enjoy both the woods and the pen but they really have become as different as a rodeo is to earning a living on a ranch. I think your dog lacks confidence by herself in the 1-dog. I watched her at tnt and she shows a strong desire to work the whole hog. Set up hogs are getting rarer all the time in the bay pen so thats a plus for a dog like yours. I would recommend not practicing her for a set time, just don't go over 4 min. Remember if you make a bay off thats normally what you have to go. Gilbert has my number, you can get it from him if you have any questions you think Autry or I might be able to answer. GOOD LUCK--Kelley

[cetchdawg]

You mentioned a man named Reggie Little ? I met a man at the bayings at the seminole brighton res. his name was Reggie Little !! He came up to me after my dog bayed and told me he liked the way i handled her and she had potential !!! he also gave me a lil advice !!!  back then i was more into the catch and tie and he was helpin me with that. he gave us some pointers !! We ended up second fastest time out of a very large crowd !! Im sure it is prolly the same Gentlemen you speak of !! i stayed in contact with him over the phone for a few years, just called to chat but since have lost contact !! would anyone know if he has an email address or maybe a handle on here where i could contact him !! VERY VERY Good person !! I would love to chat with him again !! i learned a lot in a very short time from him !!

thanks
Chaz

[Spencer]

You mentioned a man named Reggie Little ? I met a man at the bayings at the seminole brighton res. his name was Reggie Little !! He came up to me after my dog bayed and told me he liked the way i handled her and she had potential !!! he also gave me a lil advice !!!  back then i was more into the catch and tie and he was helpin me with that. he gave us some pointers !! We ended up second fastest time out of a very large crowd !! Im sure it is prolly the same Gentlemen you speak of !! i stayed in contact with him over the phone for a few years, just called to chat but since have lost contact !! would anyone know if he has an email address or maybe a handle on here where i could contact him !! VERY VERY Good person !! I would love to chat with him again !! i learned a lot in a very short time from him !!

thanks
Chaz

Hey Chaz, Mr Reggie is  "Baypenbubba" on here! If you go to his profile, it gives you his e-mail! He is the Head Honcho at Fort Bayou Ranch Baying. Just search Fort Bayou Ranch and it will take you to his web site! You are Very Right, got to meet Mr Reggie this past year, and he is a great Guy! He is full of knowledge, and sometime full of B.S. , but then again, who isn't! I think his proper name is " Reggie Littleton"! LOL 

[cetchdawg]

Thanks brotha !!!!! thanks a bunch !!!!!!

 Heck thats been prollly ten years or so ago !!!  I did know his name was reggie !!! also i had seen some pics of him on the ft bayou site and just figured i could put two and two together !!! LOL But thanks again !!! much appreciated my friend !!

Chaz

[Maver!ck]

Reggie Littleton.. that is funny
Reggie Little and Jason Littleton  but you would think that Jason is Reggie's son   

It is 'Reggie Little' and he does have some good advice.  It would be worth asking him questions as he has seen and trained just about every kind of dog.  As with anyone, you do have to take some things with a grain of salt, but Reggie is very knowledgeable and you could learn a great deal from him if you took time to hear some of his techniques.  Regardless of any shortcomings, you can't argue with the fact that he has trained some pretty jam-up dogs over the years. (Including Bubba and Cutter, the most well-known from the days of old)

When you get to read this Reggie.... and i assume you will pretty quick as word spreads fast across the hog airwaves when your name is thrown out there, i'll call you about those gyps friday.

Maver!ck

[Maver!ck]

Now my reply to training tips for bay pen dogs -
I mean no offense to anyone's opinions, i'm simply offering mine.  Opinions are what makes us different and that is a good thing.  

Most of your 'winning' class dogs are born with the ability.  It is much easier to train or work with one that already 'has it' versus one that doesn't.  That is not to say you can't work a average dog into one that can win on their better days.  If your dog is losing concentration and looping, i would not mean this in a bad way, but I wouldn't continue working her for a One dog situation.  Keep working her in 2 dog situations and that is where she seems like she will excel.  Losing concentration is just as others have said, she is getting bored and losing focus and that is one of the hardest things to train into a dog.  (that's generally one of those has it or doesn't traits)
Another tough trait or habit to break is looping.  Escpecially if the dog loops when being challenged or rushed.  When a dog starts to loop in that instance, they are 'bailing out' and giving up due to fear.  Taking fear out of a dogs mind, again, is very hard.  
Every dog is different and a trainer must recognize the dogs strengths and weaknesses.  A trainer must bring out the best in their dog and eliminate or hide any flaws.  If your dog is gritty, practice them on rougher hogs until they back off.  If your dog is soft, practice them on softer hogs until they gain confidence.  Don't let young/inexperienced dogs get steam rolled.  MAKE IT FUN!  don't make it work for the dogs. Pull the dogs out when they are having a blast, don't work them til u have to literally drag them out of the practice pen from over-exaustion.  I would NEVER practice my dogs for only 2 mins.  A dog will learn this time frame and start to either loose interest & look around to see if it's time to quit around the 2 min mark, or a grittier dog will start getting antsy wanting to grab and catch thinking the hog is about to run out of the pen.  As stated before 3mins or so and most bayoffs do end up going 3-5 mins.  When you get to a baying, study the hogs.  <--Can't emphasize this enough!!!  Know the hogs you are going to bay.  If you draw the first run, so be it, use your best judgement.  If you can watch several runs before your turn, watch as many as you can.  See where certain hogs like to bay up and where they don't.  See what hogs are rougher/softer/runnier(made that word up).  And, work your dog accordingly.  
The best trainer is the one that doesn't stop 'training' at the practice pen, but the one that uses every bit of information to their dogs advantage til they load their dog/s in the truck AFTER a competition.
There is so much more to put on here and not enough time or space.  Makes me want to start training baypen dogs again.  

Maver!ck

[cetchdawg]

Thanks yall !! thanks a bunch !!

Ok im am gonna just give a lil run down of what i am dealing with ! Hopefuly the folks who are willing to help will have the patients with me and read this if it gets a lil lengthy ?? I will also try and stay on track without jumping around my subjects !!

Alright here goes, I will start off sayin that i really appreciate all the info !! Here is my deal, my dogs are dogs that rarely ever get "skunked" if theres a hog around hes caught and im not just sayin that to brag im just givin a description. all of my dogs are from the same line and are born with that drive! ive posted some pics of them working hogs at six weeks!! So they do have that heart as to the hog aspect !! Im sure that the drive to be a pen dog is different !!
 This is what my dogs are like in the woods they usaully stay within id say 300 yards and check in every 5 minutes or so !! if my dogs are gone for more than that i know they are fixen to catch a hog !! i run two full grown dogs and sometimes a pup or two ! With that said once my dogs find a hog there will NEVER be a bark !! EVER !! its just squeel or grunt !! I am not proud of this now but when i was younger thats just what i was into ! i have hunted with a lot of others with bay dogs and now i realize the advantages of the bay dogs !! Less time doctorin dogs and prolly a hog or two more could be caught!
Now, soon as i leg a hog my dogs will relay back to the pack to catch another one !!
 Also they wont fool with a hog in the box or in a pen !!! I can put them in a pen and get them to work a hog ! but around the pen they wont just fool with a hog !!kinda like they know the difference ! ive always had a hog pen in the yard and its a "they know better" kinda thing !! I would say my dogs handle pretty good not the best but they do listen when around hogs ! if i throw them in a pen most of the time i can get them to bark (which is kinda funny cause i never hear that out of them) sometimes they feel "TRIED" i guess and will catch, once that happens they will loose all the control i was getting them to have and i will have to start all over!! My male which is prolly the more experienced of the two i hunt  has the most "GRIT" actually seems like he understands better than my female! in the pen he will bay tight (like i said before its kinds weird watchin him do that ) and rapid and not move, he gets  really close prolly within a foot of the hogs face.  if the hog "tries" him he will try and catch i can tell him to get out and sometimes he will and sometimes he wont !! so i know at least sometimes he is listening !!
Alright im gonna switch it up a bit !! LOL I do own my male dogs mom ! i dont hunt her anymore cause she is in rough shape. she is 12  when she hit a certain point she started getting a lil smarter she started backing off a lil , that was not till she was around 8-9.
My male is almost that old and he does not seem like he is doing that, in the woods he still wont back off! He is almost 8 !! and i know if he dont figure it out he is gonna get killed!! ive been very lucky !! 

I guess  another question i have is can i put a muzzle on him in a pen ?? i always have thought about doing it but was not sure about it?? I know he would prolly go nuts !! Maybe i could get him to understand a lil better that he needs to ALWAYS listen to me !!

Ok now to my main subject on workin my pup! i will start by sayin this all of the pups i keep always start off bayin and baying very well! not untill they get around a year old and have been around a bunch of caught hogs do they start catching!! so im right at that point now he is almost ten months old !! and he does awesome in the pen and in the woods he still bays when the other two are catching! He is bigger than both his parents and it just seems funny he will not grow the balls !! (which i dont want him to!!!!) So with that said i think i have a pretty good chance keepin him a bay dog ! I HOPE !!! LOL
This is pretty much what he will do in a pen He will get right up in the hogs face prolly a foot or so and bark right off the start, but more of a mad bark not an excited bark (i think there is a difference) he has a growl to his bark and kinda shows his teeth! He will stay there till the hog rushes forward then he will back off... if the hog charges him and keeps coming he will run from it but with his head turned back always watchin the hog!!  and when the hog stops he seems like he gets mad and will get a lil more aggrasive and nip at its nose (which in a bay pen i would assume is not  good or great?) he never really seems to get "bored" but he does get tired and starts to slow down ! his bark is really never very "RAPID: i guess?? but when he gets tired it does get slower than normal!!?? yesterday i worked him for about ten minutes and he only looked away twice!! i mean actually stopped and looked up at the others i had with me!! I read to bring people and turn on the radio so i did !! it kinda did get him off track !! also he did look at me a few times with just his eyes did not stop barking or move his head just looked my way with his eyes ! He still does not listen when i want him out and normally i go get him but yesterday  it tried to get him to come to me instead and it only took about a minute or so, i finally got his attention and he came to me !! so i was pretty happy about that!  thats pretty much it i could go on all day but thats the gist !! im not looking to have someone give me all their secrets but maybe point me in the right direction !! if i could attend some bays im sure i would lean WAY more  its just so far for me !! i am all ears and willing to listen to any and all adive !!

Thanks
 Chaz

[Spencer]

Reggie Littleton.. that is funny
Reggie Little and Jason Littleton  but you would think that Jason is Reggie's son   

It is 'Reggie Little' and he does have some good advice.  It would be worth asking him questions as he has seen and trained just about every kind of dog.  As with anyone, you do have to take some things with a grain of salt, but Reggie is very knowledgeable and you could learn a great deal from him if you took time to hear some of his techniques.  Regardless of any shortcomings, you can't argue with the fact that he has trained some pretty jam-up dogs over the years. (Including Bubba and Cutter, the most well-known from the days of old)

When you get to read this Reggie.... and i assume you will pretty quick as word spreads fast across the hog airwaves when your name is thrown out there, i'll call you about those gyps friday.

Maver!ck

LOL! Mr. Reggie, i hope you know im just messing with ya! I just remember the first time that me and Ashlie met you at DeKalb, and they started calling you Reggie Littleton! I thought that was funny! Hope your doing well Mr. Reggie. If we don't get to see you before hand, i guess we will see you in Winnfield!

[Baypenbubba]

The Baypen world is full of comedians LMAO and Jason Littleton was Adopted by me about 10 yrs ago when his real pop Loyd Ashlie tried to leave him at a hog bay LOL Just kidding Jason is a good friend and a fine young man just like Spencer and Mav are. As to the charges leveled aganst me 1 Being a bS"er and 2 loving to shovel out free advice to a eager ear I must plead guilty as charged. Chaz I do vaugly remember giveing a young man advice on some catch and tie techs in Brighten but thats been a long time ago but feel free to call me any time at the FBR 228-238-9530 i would love to talk dogs and old times. Now back to the original topic of this post.There have been and are several people who have had some success training or correcting older dogs. I do not hold with the old saying (you cannot teach a old dog new tricks) anything that has a brain can be taught , conditioned or manipulated into performing a task and there are many different techs. if you can teach a dog to find drugs , bombs ,dead bodys to attack to retreive ,to play frisbe to guard and to even be seeing eye dogs you can dang sure train one to find and bay a hog ! Now finding a person with the knowledge, abillity and the god given tallent for being able to read the nature of the beast being any animal domesticated by man well they arent easy to come by.

True Blue

1.There are very few A,B,C"s to to training a hog dog some but not many!

2. why? no two dogs are alike they are individuals with dif personalitys!

3.some breeds are smarter and more trainible with certain instincs stronger in there genes
4.Blue Lacys are a wonderful and diferse breed of dog very trainible and a good trainer should be able to improve her performance to some degree in the pen
5. A proffesinal can assess your dogs abbilitys in a relitivly short period of time and should be able to tell you if she is capible of becoming a winner.
6.If you would like PM me and I will put you intouch with some active trainers who can help yBay . some of them right there in texas!
7.Free advice and opinions mine included are easy to come by ! SEEK the councel of a pro.
Reggie
PS HOPE TO SEE ALL OF YOU AT EARLS

[Pecos21]

Reggie that opens another can of worms....LOL! There are a lot of guys who consider themselves pros but really aren't.....ROFL!!! Just Kidding..... I told Maver!ck we needed to make a run to Uncle Earls for old times sake.....