Dog breeding question - Barlow, BigO, Parker, Texashogdogs, etc

[Circle C]

Barlow, BigO, Parker, Texashogdogs, etc,  how do you place your pups so that you know if a particular cross was a success?

Let's use a hypothetical litter of 8 pups

Do you keep them all and raise and hunt them?
Do you pick a couple that you will raise and hunt personally, then cull the rest at an early age? Or keep them all then cull after starting them in the woods?
Do you select certain people who hunt in a similar manner as you and send pups to them?

What I am trying to find out, is how does one really know the quality of the pups they produce first hand?

I know that within the small group of people that I hunt with, we look for different traits in a dog, and we have different expectations.

Take this example and tell me what you think...I have a dog that I think highly of, and a friend has a bitch that we both think highly of, we both feel that this will make a good cross. Now, I don't think either one of us wants to raise 8 puppies, and I don't feel like I am able to hunt often enough to give 8 pups a good shot at making a dog. I think that I can feasibly start and give a fair shake to no more than two pups... I don't want to send the pups to just anyone, but I also know that everyone has varying expectations of a pup/dog.  How do I know that the cross was successful in this situation?

Or maybe the better question is simply, how do y'all know if a cross was successful?

 

[TexasHogDogs]

I use to  own a lot of land so a lot of dogs were no problem but now I live in town on a Hugh lot but still not the country so I cant keep a lot of dogs so therefore  you can bet the ones that I do keep are the real deal ,

What I do is I don't make a bunch of breedings cause I don't sell dogs I breed what I need so like I had a liter of 11 and I could only keep two and a good friend what hunts with me wanted one so I kept three and the others went away .   You never know which pup is going to be what so I get ask all the time how do you pick your pups well the best way I have found to pick your pup is put them all in box shuffle them up and close your eyes and pick two are three how ever many you are going to keep and let it be done .

I hear this all the time well I want a certain body build and I want long legs and I want this dog to look like this are have that.  Well all I can tell you is that I have seen many liters of dogs not nesserally cur dog pups and I'm here to tell you conformation don't really mean Jack I have seen medium size dogs blister a long legged dogs  and I have seen short body dogs with great wind and lungs and I have seen short eared dogs have noses better than hound dogs.  So why beat yourself up when picking a dog just roll the dice and get it done you will be happy.

Once you bred are A man like Mr Parker has  bred A good line of dogs for so many years it don't really matter like he said most will turn out just because of the culling process and the breeding behind them .  I dont now Mr Parker for Adam  but just using him as a example would like to meet him one day .

I have seen breeders that have bred lines for 40 years and people would say O man I want that pup that looks just like the daddy identical and he would more than welcome them to take it,  just because a dog looks  like the momma are the daddy don't mean jack I  have seen dogs look identical to there dads are moms and be just the opposite when it came time to show.  Picking pups for the looks is for show people .

To answer you question on a subject like that is hard to do not knowing the line of dogs are how the breeders have bred threw the years.  In a case like yours  the best thing to do is place the pups out that you don't want even tho you may not want to but you need to because you have not had enough breeding are breedings go on with  your line of dogs to figure out just what is what you need to see a real percentage and then  you can start making your decisions on how many to keep for sure and cull the rest .   You question is a hard question to answer.  Once you get your family set then the real problem comes as to what to do with all the pups cause your percentages go up big time once the family is set.  I would most likely try to hand a few of them out to some one you might can trust not many these days.

I would like to state that I don't want anybody on this forum to think I have the best dogs in the world nor do I think they are any better than yours.  I have not bred cur dogs but for about five years but i bred other strains of dogs for over 25 and had some good success . I'm I proud of the dogs I own now the cur dogs yes I'm and yes there is always better dogs out there some were never forget that I just strive to try and make mine better each and every time I breed if not I have no reason to own these dogs . Every mans dogs has a bad day mine do yours do everybody's does .  I'm no trouble maker man I just rub some people the wrong ways some times because if ask a question I'm gonna anwser it as truefully as I can and if there is one thing people can stand it is the truth sometimes so yeah I can rubb U the wrong way but you have been told the truth on my experince with dogs when you leave, one thing to remember here is that I'm not pushing no sales and are pushing my line of dogs to sale so what I say is for your bennifit if you want to use it  not mine thats a big differnce n some.     if somebody's dogs spanks mines butt I will gladly shake your hand and come back harder the next time that is just friendly competition and the way it should be if yours spanks mines ass hell you might not get rid of me till you let me buy a pup are breed to the one that done it ahahhahahahahahahahahahahah

All in sport man all in sport if a man ain't completive he need not be in this game.

TexasHogDogs




Dog Killer 1


Dog Kller 2



Mutts

[bigo]

I consider a cross a good one when I don't have go through too many to find some good ones. You need some help in my opinion, to breed hunting dogs. A man can't start more than a couple of pups at a time without having problems. I know some folks that are good dogmen and good hunters that like the same type dogs that I do and will flat hunt the hair off one. I give them all they will take. I have made a couple of mistakes over the years in breeding these dogs and these same people have saved my rear end from loosing it all. I started with dogs from a great cross, so its been hard to improve them and a struggle to mantain them, but they are capable of producing some great dogs. They also produce some junk and more so so dogs than I would like and have found it impossible to produce the percentages Of what I call good dogs that other people claim. It doesn't bother me to cull a whole litter, after trying them, but when you see me unsnap one, it's a good one.

[Noah]

  if a man ain't competitive he need not be in this game.

TexasHogDogs

Well said... Well said.  Are we here to chase dogs..... or to catch hogs?

...... I think I feel a t-shirt logo coming on.....

[crackerc]

Noah, I have a t-shirt that you would like. I picked it up at a show in south Fla last year. It is really more suited for young guys but I just had to have it....LOL

It reads" I am either out with your old lady, or catching hogs your dogs can't". Man, you think THAT won't ruffle some feathers.......

I will have to see if I can dig up who I got it from, he had several good ones, including one that had a Rebel flag, the FWC logo and read " FWC's Most Wanted".

As far as competition, I don't care much about that. I hunt for me and my dogs , not someone else. If I like my dogs, I will keep feeding them. I really don't care how they do compared to someone elses dogs. As long as I keep catching hogs, I am fine with that. Can I improve? Absolutely. But its to suit me, not compete with the Jones's.............

[cward]

Amen!! Cracker I like to catch hogs and as long as my dogs are getting the job and succesful then I am happy and will keep feeding them.Now I will get real competive if someone says there's a hog out there that can't be caught I'll make it happen some way or another.               But chris all my dogs on my place are related and I have kept whole litters tryed it that way but I usally get mad when I do that just messing with that many puppies you just can't put the time in them they need. I try to keep a pair then try to hand them out properly to people I no.Yes you gamble on theres being better than yours but it is a gamble that turns out in the end.

[TexasHogDogs]

As far as competition, I don't care much about that. I hunt for me and my dogs , not someone else. If I like my dogs, I will keep feeding them. I really don't care how they do compared to someone elses dogs. As long as I keep catching hogs, I am fine with that. Can I improve? Absolutely. But its to suit me, not compete with the Jones's.............

Amen!! Cracker I like to catch hogs and as long as my dogs are getting the job and succesful then I am happy and will keep feeding them.Now I will get real competive if someone says there's a hog out there that can't be caught I'll make it happen some way or another.         

Thats what it is all about man .  Your dogs catch hogs thats all you need.  I dont really care for the competition either but when it comes to a challange if somebodys got one and my dogs and I are there we are in .  I chased that first dog killer up there for over a year and he finaly messed up he killed my Black Jack dog the second one like to killed me and did kill my Daisy dog he drug me down three flights of river bank and Killed my Daisy dog along the way  the only hog I have never been able to flip and Tom slid down the bank three flights with a 30/30  put three rounds in him point blank before he fell the plastic back in the back of the truck is my dog.  Tusk went straight threw a well known catch vest.

TexasHogDogs

[Silverton Boar Dogs]

Chris, If I am making an unproven cross I always keep all the pups untill they are at least 10 months old. I want to see for myself how they turn out. I want to handel the pups all the same and see how strong the cross is. I will show them hogs at the same time, show them cattle at the same time, start them hunting at the same time...thats the only way I can really tell what's what with a litter. I may cull some along the way, but I want to really see how they compairand see how consistant the litter is when they are being raised and trained the way I want.

[raider54]

Contact Mr. Howard Carnathan in Tupelo Mississippi, he registered the first YBMC a dog named Bruno. He can tell you every cross he has ever made. He can tell you what nicked well and what didnt! He keeps in touch with the owners of his pups. Mr Carnathan would be a good one to ask that question, he has kept record of his dogs for 40 years and he is more than glad to talk to anyone on the phone

[parker]

i sale  my  pups ......if  you  give a  pup  away  he   is  worth  zero to the  owner .....if  he  buys  him  he  has money   in him  or  her .....that  means  the  dog  will  get  better treatment  usually ...... also  he  can  make  a few  mistakes and  still  live ...as  they all make  mistakes .....hahahahaha


now  far  as  how  they turnout as a  whole  litter ....most  people  call me  and  tell  me  about the hunts the  pups     has  been  on  and  what  he  seen the    pup   do ..... and  if  a  pup  does  real  well lots  of  times  i  get calls  from  his  hunting  buddies  wanting  one  .....i  can  tell how  a  cross  does  by  just getting  feed back  on  em .....it  real  easy  for  me    now .....  mine  or  so  line  bred  if  they take  after  anydog  in there  breeding  they'll turnout ..... if  one  isn't  working  out  i  try  to  buy  it  back ..... if  i can  usually  i work it  for a  while  and  sale  it  for  double ....most  of  the time  it  was  the  owner  not  the  dog ......

just  like  well  bred  retrievers ... they'll  fetch when there babies and  they  don't  know  why .....young  well  bred  bird dog puppies  will  just  lock  up  and  point  and  they  don't  know  why .... ITS  BLOODLINE .....


mine  or  bred  to  hunt  and they  have  bay  quality .........

[dgdawsonBMCs]

The first BMC dog was registered in 1964 by L.H. Ladner, not that it really matters, but you can call NKC and see for yourself.  Also, he raises more of a tree dog strain.  He has some people using his dogs on hogs, but he doesn't do it himself like the people on this board do.  Not talking bad about H.C., just stating the facts..

[pig snatcher]

"i sale  my  pups ......if  you  give a  pup  away  he   is  worth  zero to the  owner .....if  he  buys  him  he  has money   in him  or  her .....that  means  the  dog  will  get  better treatment  usually ...... also  he  can  make  a few  mistakes and  still  live ...as  they all make  mistakes .....hahahahaha"

All depends on who you are dealing with, their mind set and whether they are wanting to make a dog or worrying over losing a couple of bucks.

[crackerc]

I tend to agree with Parker on selling pups. You can read what I posted earlier about my bad experiences giving pups away. Most guys just don't seem to take care of them if they are free. Its almost like they think they aren't worth anything......

Its not about the few bucks you make off the pups. However, it IS fairly costly to raise a litter of pups right. If you put a pencil to it and figure wormer, shots, puppy food, flea stuff, etc plus your time it all adds up.

I also figure my time invested in 27 years of raising these dogs is worth something too. I am sure Larry will agree. He hasn't invested his time on breeding up his dogs to just give them to any Tom, Dick or Harry that wants one.

Its the old adage about supply and demand. I usually have a waiting list for pups, and I get $200-$250 for a pup. I can sell every one I raise, I just choose to not raise many as I only breed a dog when I want a pup. I don't raise dogs just to sell.

I have many repeat customers, as I am sure Larry does, so the small amount they are paying for a pup doesn't seem to discourage them from buying another pup.

[pig snatcher]

Dont get me wrong Crackerc, not saying anything about selling pups. Nothing wrong with that at all.

JUst saying not all of us view a cheap/free dog as a throw away dog even though I know a lot do.  

Read what you wrote about the guy w/ the pup, I would have been quite ill myself.

May not have worded my original post the best. Dont do so good transfering thoughts to type some times.

[parker]

I  AM NOT A  DOG  TRADER  OR  PUPPY  MILL ....  i consider  myself a  dogman ....i hunt  squirrel ,coons,hogs and  i have  3  labs  i duck  hunt  with .... i'm  proud  of  my  dogs ...... and  i  like  breeding  and  watching the  young  ones  develope and the  process  of  crossing with in  my  line  and  seeing  what  comes  out .......  i  never  breed a  dog  with  the  thought  of  selling  pups .....i  have  note  books  full  of  names  of  people  wanting  pups  or  dogs .....  i raise  about  2  litters a  year ....there  is  more  people  raiseing  dogs  out  of  my  line  selling them  than  me ....and  they ask  for  more  money than  i  do hahahahah ......  giveing  pups  and  them  being  worth  zero  is a  fact .....

i  have  met  some  super fine  fine  people  from  coast  to  coast  messing  with  dogs ...  i'll talk  your  ear  off  about  dogs ...... so  i  love  the  calls ..... there  is  dogs  from  here  at  my  house  i  bred  and  raised hunting  in  9  different states  i  know  of .....i  can't  fool  that  many  people hahahaha  the  dogs  speak  for  themselves .......i guarantee  the  pups .... and  when  i  sell a  started  dog  or  finished  dog  i like  for  the  person  to  come  here  for a  couple  days  and  hunt  with  me  and  THAT  dog ..... after  that  he  know s wether  he  wants  to  tak e the  dog  on home and  i give a  trial  after  that ......  i love  meeting  the  people  and  visiting .....now days  i  do  more  dang talking than hunting  hahahaha  i  have  gotten  lazy

[crackerc]

Pig Snatcher,

No problem, but if you read my earlier posts about free pups, you know why I do what I do. And that is just a small portion of my experiences in giving pups away.........

If a guy spends $200+ on a pup, he is going to take care of it, put it up at night, feed it well, etc. He doesn't want to do anything to lose his investment.
 

Now I KNOW not everyone that gets a free pup/dog doesn't take care of it. I am just talking of my experiences.

My Monkey dog was free as a pup, and I take good care of him. I hunt the hair off of him, when its not 100 degrees, but otherwise he gets taken real good care of.

I used to raise a litter every 3-4 years. I raised one litter, that will be 6 years old in Oct. Since then I have raised two litters of pups. I want to raise a couple more litters in the next couple of years though, as I am down to two breedable females of my line of dogs. They are the ones that will be 6 years old in Oct. (each has had one litter) so I am running out of time on getting pups out of them. Thats why I hunt Monkey more and them less, I am not wanting to get them wrecked or killed as they are my breeding future to maintain what I have.

[Circle C]

Thanks for the feedback gentlemen, I appreciate y'all taking your time to respond.


   

Chris, If I am making an unproven cross I always keep all the pups untill they are at least 10 months old. I want to see for myself how they turn out. I want to handel the pups all the same and see how strong the cross is. I will show them hogs at the same time, show them cattle at the same time, start them hunting at the same time...thats the only way I can really tell what's what with a litter. I may cull some along the way, but I want to really see how they compairand see how consistant the litter is when they are being raised and trained the way I want.

Paul,

     I am pretty sure that is how we are going to handle this litter if and when it happens.  It seems that there is a greater monetary cost, but within the litter the nature and the nurture are the same, so nurture is no longer the variable that it might be sending pups to various homes.

         

I  AM NOT A  DOG  TRADER  OR  PUPPY  MILL ....  i consider  myself a  dogman ...

Parker,
    You must be doing something right, because people seem to know and want your line of dogs.

BigO,

I consider a cross a good one when I don't have go through too many to find some good ones. You need some help in my opinion, to breed hunting dogs. A man can't start more than a couple of pups at a time without having problems. I know some folks that are good dogmen and good hunters that like the same type dogs that I do and will flat hunt the hair off one. I give them all they will take. I have made a couple of mistakes over the years in breeding these dogs and these same people have saved my rear end from loosing it all. I started with dogs from a great cross, so its been hard to improve them and a struggle to mantain them, but they are capable of producing some great dogs. They also produce some junk and more so so dogs than I would like and have found it impossible to produce the percentages Of what I call good dogs that other people claim. It doesn't bother me to cull a whole litter, after trying them, but when you see me unsnap one, it's a good one.

I don't know you, but reading what you typed sure leads me to believe you are a straight shooter. I am not fortunate enough to know very many people that have the same wants in a dog as I might, so sending them to other people to hunt may not get me the type of feedback I am looking for. You are fortunate that you have people that you can send pups to try and that you get honest feedback, and that they look for the same thing you do in a dog.


 I think what makes things so difficult in comparing hog dogs, and "testing" a litters success rate, is that there is no "breed standard" per se   We know with the aussies we raise, that they can be tested in the performance and show ring, and that there are judged events.  It makes it real easy to know if the mating was a success.  First did the pups grow and fall within the established breed standard in regards to temperament and conformation. Then, did the pups excel in their particular field, be it trialing, agility, flyball, etc.  Going back to the hog dogs, everyone wants a little something different. One person may figure if most of the litter grows up and is capable of finding a hog, then they consider that litter a success. Others, may be looking for something more specific, therefore the same litter may have a smaller percentage turn out to be what they are looking for.  At least that is what I have taken from reading this thread and others.

[barlow]

I must have been lumped in with these other guys by accident because I haven't been at it for nearly as long and what I type here is just my opinion from some limited experience . . . but I'll give it anyway.

When I fist began to produce a few pups that people wanted I thought I had turned proffessional. That in itself seems to be a problem in the dog world as so many guys get in and in order to feel like they are in the big leagues and deserve the respect of their peers . . they have to sell pups. In many circles it isn't a matter of how much you catch and what you can do with your own dogs . . it's your pup price and your waiting list. I've sold and shipped pups all over the U.S. from New England to Florida and west as far as Idaho and Utah. I've sent them to Ontario and British Columbia and northern Europe for the Scandinavian Lynx and Brown Bears they hunt in Sweden and Norway. One thing I can say with certainty is that with the possible dubious exception of a $200 to $500 income boost . . . none of those sold pups ever did a darn thing for me or my breeding program. I've sold or swapped them to newcomers who had never raised their own litter and to several hall of fame breeders. The one thing all of those deals have in common is that unless you go hunt personally with those pups after they mature . . . you will never know if they made it or what kind of dog they are. In order to believe in one of those super 90% crosses I sure wouldn't take it on the word of someone I sold a puppy to. But that's just me. I've been down that road and bought dogs from crosses that never produced a cull. Well, the one I bought wasn't a cull either . . but he wasn't the type I wanted to add to my breeding program.

I've gotten feedback on dogs that can cold trail, run and catch a bear . . then skin him and bring him back to the truck before the pup was 9 months old . . . but apparently when I got a chance to hunt with this same dog at two years old he had regressed significantly.

I know of hunters who've bought and raised pups from other folks' breeding just so they could bad mouth the man that produced him and claim the pup never did anything. I know a past president of the American Plott Association who raised another man's pup til he was over a year . . then lead him out of the kennel and shot him without ever turning him loose. Now he is always quick to say he tried and culled one of that man's pups because it was worthless.

All of that is just a part of the reason I quit registering my dogs. I don't want them to go to the guys who breed for paper and I'm just as happy that as unregistered dogs they are only valuable to someone who will hunt them.

You can say what you like about pups that cost nothing being worth nothing . .  but the cold hard fact is that if the $200 puppy price is all that is going to convince someone to work the pup he bought from you then he isn't a dog man at all and doesn't deserve one of mine. Also says a lot about how much demand there really is . . just another example of folks trying this bloodline and that shortcut because they want an easy answer. I'd still rather give a dog to someone who is a friend and I know will hunt it. And I mean hunt it because he is a hunter . . . because he lives to hunt, because he couldn't imagine not hunting a dog that was born and bred to catch game. The world is full of suckers who will buy anything for sale off of the internet or out of the parking lot of a feed store or swap meet. I wouldn't take much pride in selling to them or have much confidence in their evaluation of a dog.

I'm with Silverton and BigO . . I want to see what my pups do for myself because I'm the only one whose opinion counts and I'm the one who hunted with the last however many generations and can really say how this last batch measures up.

I don't sell pups anymore. It suits me better to keep as many as I can and slowly whittle em down to kindlin. Guess that will prevent me from getting famous for producing those 100% litters we all want and hear about. But for starters, I don't need a whole litter to hunt . . and additionally . . . I have never seen eight dogs that were perfectly equal. There's always one that is better . . and that is the one I want. I can't help but think that some folks who produce large litters of dogs that turnout . . . are only hoping for dogs that are good enough to turnout. Myself, I want one that is slightly better than that.

I've seen fellows who are happy if their litters are just good enough to keep the pups from being returned for the guarantee. Not me. I only offer one guarantee. If I have one to spare and I believe you are a hunter who knows how to evaluate THIS type of dog . . you're welcome to it. I guarantee I won't wet myself when you call and tell me how he's baying his own hogs at four months old. I guarantee I'm not gonna kick about it if he doesn't make the grade and gets done away with . . and I guarantee that if he makes some kind of legend I won't ask for any extra money.

I have no evidence for, no reason to and no interest in questioning the integrity or the character of any man who hunts his own dogs and is happy with the results of whatever he does with them. I can't judge what I don't know.

I mentioned the idea of a get-together for hunter/breeders. I want to hunt with some other folks and their dogs. Not in a competition. I don't want to have judges or award cash or prizes or titles or trophies. I just want to hunt with whatever else is out there as another means of evaluating what I'm doing. Maybe learn something along the way.

And Larry Parker. I've heard your name for several years, always favorably. I'd love to hunt with you sometime or at least call you up and b.s. about good dogs.

[barlow]

And one more thing (or two). Howard Carnathan originally registered Bruno in 1978 as a Southern Cur. The first BMC was registered in 1974. Ladner never registered a dog til around 1980 but when he did . . the pedigree he gave for that dog went back to 1964. And with all due respect to those who deserve it . . . commercial breeders like these two are a large part of what is wrong with hunting breeds.

[TexasHogDogs]

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