Dog breeding question - Barlow, BigO, Parker, Texashogdogs, etc

[UNDERDOG]

And one more thing (or two). Howard Carnathan originally registered Bruno in 1978 as a Southern Cur. The first BMC was registered in 1974. Ladner never registered a dog til around 1980 but when he did . . the pedigree he gave for that dog went back to 1964. And with all due respect to those who deserve it . . . commercial breeders like these two are a large part of what is wrong with hunting breeds.

Well said....

[dgdawsonBMCs]

I don't think it is appropriate to talk about people who have passed away like that.  Just because you don't agree with what they do, doesn't mean you are right.  If you want to keep your dogs for yourself you can do that.  However, if other people find a market for pups then they can do what they want. Many a person out there are happy with both of these individuals dogs. You are sounding a bit like some of the gun nuts I have met.  You don't like guns so you want to take them away from everyone else.  You mentioned you have sold many dogs in the past (all over the world), so I want you to list your name as well when you sling mud in the future......Frankly this "holier than thou"  attitude is getting old..

[parker]

barlow  your  welcome  to  call  me  anytime  to  talk  dogs ......


 i guess  everyone  has there  own  thought  about what  is  what ,,,,all  i know  is  what  i  have  gathered  along the  way .....  i  guess  you  could  say  i  have  an  educated  guess .....hahahaha

[Wmwendler]

All of that is just a part of the reason I quit registering my dogs. I don't want them to go to the guys who breed for paper and I'm just as happy that as unregistered dogs they are only valuable to someone who will hunt them.

You can say what you like about pups that cost nothing being worth nothing . .  but the cold hard fact is that if the $200 puppy price is all that is going to convince someone to work the pup he bought from you then he isn't a dog man at all and doesn't deserve one of mine. Also says a lot about how much demand there really is . . just another example of folks trying this bloodline and that shortcut because they want an easy answer. I'd still rather give a dog to someone who is a friend and I know will hunt it. And I mean hunt it because he is a hunter . . . because he lives to hunt, because he couldn't imagine not hunting a dog that was born and bred to catch game. The world is full of suckers who will buy anything for sale off of the internet or out of the parking lot of a feed store or swap meet. I wouldn't take much pride in selling to them or have much confidence in their evaluation of a dog.

Thats the way I was raised.  Keep all the pups that you can hunt, and give the rest to people you know and trust and maybe in the future if you need a pup they will return the favor.  That way they are close and you can still hunt with the dog and evaluate every dog in the litter.    Ive never bought a dog and only sold one grown dog and sometimes I wish I had her back but thats the way it should be or I did'nt have any business selling in the first place. 

Waylon

[barlow]

Mr. Dawson I apologize if my words offended you. Maybe that was over the line and I did not mean to imply that Mr. Ladner was a bad person or anything else. But it is my firm belief based on the real facts that the volume approach to dog breeding does no good in the long run. Anyone who keeps over one hundred breeding gyps on his yard for the commercial dog selling market can not evaluate closely enough and therefore can not hope to consistently produce the quality that I or you should expect. But if you throw out those kind of numbers . . I would think you'd have to produce a few that were good. I am not holier than thou or holy in any other manner. I just hunt as hard as I can and try to breed the best dogs I can for my own use. And I still try to learn something every opportunity I get. If I sound critical . . it is because I am critical of those methods . . not any one man.

[TexasHogDogs]

When a man starts out in love for his sport  and breeds his dogs and acquires good dogs and keep the quality of his dogs high and the numbers low and  he keeps his family of dogs gene pools clean and culled  and he uses them for himself and his friends the quality of his dogs are at its utmost high.  Then as times goes on he starts to sell a few dogs here and there and then the all mighty dollar enters the picture before long his three are four great brood gyps that he was getting his pups from and he and friends were still hunting most of the offspring  then as this is going on the pup selling starts and his three are four brood gyps   turn into 20 Ca$h Cows on just their  bloodlines alone  having pups year round and all the sudden the quality of his dogs  turns into  quantity and  all for the love on the almighty dollar.  Now the ca$h cows are  rolling and he is addicted and when this happens everything suffers the quality of the dogs and it even effects the breeder as now he is doing things that he once would have never done to keep up with the demand for his pups and is addicted to the cash flow .  Now he is doing 20 - 30 breedings a year opposed to his 3 are 4 back when he was a serious hunter using his dogs himself and friends  culling checking  and now he is turning out all these pups and the funny thing about it his numbers now of good dogs are no higher than they were when he was making his three are four breedings a year now he is just producing  sure numbers quaintly instead of quality .   Its just sure numbers folks hell if I sell 100 - 150 pups a year something has got to turn out on sure luck .  This is were family's of dogs suffer.
Again it all resortes back to the almighty dollar if a man is not making plenty of money in producing 100 150 pups a year then you know damn well he is not going to breed them cause he cannot even begin to hunt them all so that tells you right there what the game is all about.

When you breed more dogs than you can use and keep honest  thats a big warning sign that things are going to quainty not quality  and you have been bitten by the Cash Bug!   

[grittydog]

How do yall feel about Randy Wright and the Weatherford Ben bloodline?

[crackerc]

Seems that some on this board have taken offense to us that do sell our pups. I am not a dog trader and definately not a puppy mill. You can read my earlier posts, I have raised exactly 3 litters in about 6 years and one of those litters only had 4 pups. I am not going to exactly get rich selling pups at that rate.

I don't understand why you think I should give my pups away. I raised horses for 25 years, have owned up to 150 head of my own cows, managed ranches for 13 years with 500 pairs....and I never had anyone give me a horse or cow.....I see dogs as being no different.

I bred a mare to the NCHA World Champion Stallion, Smart Smokin Pep. I wasn't given the breeding. Bill Kidd raised the horse, trained him and showed him. He had considerable time and money tied up in the stud. Should he give those colts away?  I don't think so....

My dogs are the same way to me. I have a lot of time, money and effort in them. If someone wants one, they can pay for those efforts just as in everything else you buy. That doesn't guarantee they will hunt the dog or that the dog will be a world beater.

You have NEVER seen me claim 80-90% of my dogs make good dogs. Truth is, I couldn't tell you. I have sold dogs to about 5-6 states and lose track of some of them. Then I have guys track me down and want to buy more like the first ones they bought from me. The first ones couldn't have been that bad.

I have had several that said they were the best dogs they ever owned. But to me, that is relative. What may be a good dog to them, may not be a good dog to me, so I don't claim(never have, never will) to have an 80-90% percentage of pups that make GOOD dogs.

All I can say is if you don't want to buy one of my pups, don't. Its that simple. I raise very few litters and have more people wanting pups than I want to raise. There is no "cash cow" at my place or brood gyps. In fact I only have 2 breedable females on my place, both are coming 6 years old in Oct and each have raised one litter.......and I hunted each for 5 years BEFORE I bred them, so I knew what they were capable of.

Not exactly a puppy mill in my eyes.

I don't know Randy Wright, but I think he could sell ice to the Eskimos......

[TexasHogDogs]

I myself am not talking about folks like you I understand what you are doing noting wrong with selling a pup here and there are a dog here and there I myself sell a dog now and then and a pup here and there but it is the mass production type that I'm talking about not ordinary people that breed a couple liters here and there and keep the quality of dogs high and breed for themselves.  Other folks that fit in to this is the people that just stick two dogs together and run to www and claim this and that and sell trash .  Not a thing wrong with what you do.

[Scott]

It seems that some folks are getting a little wrapped around the axle regarding selling pups or giving them away. I would imagine that to most, it doesn't really matter what others do one way or the other. I personally see nothing wrong with selling pups...that being said, of the few litters I've had, I've given approximately 80% of the pups to folks who would work them free of charge. It doesn't make my way better, it's just how I choose to do things. I guess that I've been fortunate on the placements, because I've gotten the feedback that I wanted from each and every one of the folks that I placed them with.

There's many different ways to "skin a cat"...

[parker]

hahahahha  i guarantee  you  i  get  better  than  80 %  that turn  out  to  find  and  bay there  own  hogs ..... some  will always  be better  than  others .....i guarantee the  people  that get a  pup  from me is  very  glad  to  get  em ....... as  high as dog food  is  and  vet  supplies  and  just  raiseing  dogs ....anyone  that thinks  anyone  raiseing and  selling  hogdogs  is  getting  rich  is  crazy ....  i  spend  way  more  than  i  get  back ...... has  anyone  seen  me  advertise  any  dogs  for   sale .....NO ...don't  have  too.....i  get  calls dang near  every night ...

anyone  looking  for a  good  quality  pup is  way  better  off  to  buy  one  from  proven  stock with a  guarantee  ....... that way  if  the  dog  doesn't  work  out  you  can  recover  some  of  your  money ....if  someone  gives  you  one  you  will be  out  all  your  money ......


not  everyone  but  most  people  that  give  away  pups  give  it  i with tagg  attached  ...(if  you  ever  get  rid  of  the  dog  it  comes  back  to  me ).....your  better  off  to  buy a  pup than  take  one  like  that .....i see  more people  with  hard  feeling  over  that  kind  of  stuff ... 

[Scott]

Well, let's see...a free pup from proven stock with a guarantee if the pup doesn't work out, it'll be replaced. The only catch, if it makes a dog, I may want a pup back off of it.

The way I see it, I'd be out all my money if I bought one under the same conditions...

I guess what I'm trying to say is (and this works both ways): do you trust the man (or woman) that you are dealing with will do right by both you and the dog.

To me, it doesn't matter how many litters they've put on the ground, how many pups they've sold, how much they've sold them for, how many they've given away, or how long they've been breeding...if I don't trust they'll do the right thing, I don't want anything from them.

My 2 pennies

[Bryant]

I don't know Randy Wright, but I think he could sell ice to the Eskimos......

That's a pretty bold statement, don't you think.  Do you base your assesment on the fact that you have owned and raised some of his pups and they weren't worth two squirts of urine, or simply due to the fact that he sells a lot of pups?  Fact of it is, is that his DOGS sell his dogs...not his advertising or sales pitch.

Some of the posts on this thread are just straight ignorant.  Some of you think that simply because a person breeds a lot of dogs, or sells their pups that they are the devil.  I see absolutely nothing wrong with making a little extra money off something you have devoted your life to, and basically have "mastered" if you will.

Why don't some of you go to your doctors office and tell the man that because he has mastered the technique, and that he transplants hearts (commercially, and on a daily basis heaven forbid) for a living that you think he should do it for free and that it's just plain wrong that he makes a living with his knowledge.

Guys...it's just as simple as this.  In the dog breeding world, repeat customers are the tale-tell sign.  Speaking directly of Randy Wrights dogs (because those are the only ones I have PERSONAL experience with), I think some of you should call the State of Lousiana and tell them that their official state bear dogs are straight up BS dogs because they came from a commercial breeder.  Then when you finish that call, get the state of New Jersey on the line, the Texas Department of Criminal Justice on the line, and the THOUSANDS of END USERS who have been buying and using his dogs for the past 20+ years and tell them the same thing.  Heck, I can name a BUNCH of users just on this board alone that have his dogs and LOVE them.

In fact, I personally just sold one to Cull Buck on here.  Ask him what he thinks of the dog.  Is he a super-dog?  By no means...but I would say he's far better than 90% of what's out there being traded around.

The question was asked...how do you determine if a litter was a success.  In my opinion, it boils down to this.  If I'm breeding for myself (which I just did, and in fact have my first personal litter on the ground now), and the pups perform as I had hoped then I'm satisfied....it was a success.

[Yeller]

I'm not a spokesman 4 any one but this is my experience with Randy Wright's  dog's almost every dog I have goes back to a dog that was bought 12 years ago from R.W. .Anyway my buddy called and bought a young dog from him the dog didn't work out so he called him and R.W.sent him another one that dog is finding hogs in Conroe Tx. A year and a half ago I called and mailed a deposit 2 R.W.'s assoc Steven Dallas (4Dkennels)in N.M the pup was delivered 2 Uncle Earls it didn't live a week I called S.D.he said he'd make it right this year at uncle Earls he brought me a 9mon pup it found its first hog in the woods at 10 1/2 months I don't know R.W. personaly only talk 2 him on the  phone once 2 get S.D.'s #. That's just my experience.

[parker]

why does  everyone think   everyone  selling  pups is  out  to  hook  them ......

scott  maybe  you  misread  what  i  posted  or  maybe  i din't  make  myself clear enuff ..

i don't  replace  on a  guarantee  i  give  the  money  back  then  if  they want another  they  can  buy  it  when  i  have  them  another  one .....

if  you  get  one  for  free  and  it  doesn't t urn  out  you  or  out everything ....

mine  are  proven reproducers ... do   you understand  proven ....

dogs  from north carolina  to  california finding hogs  for  there  owners .....

hahahaha  this  is  crazy ..... hey  i  bet  ya'll  have  to  end  up  culling  7  of  the give me's  out  of  10

[dgdawsonBMCs]

Barlow - Apology accepted.  I am not saying I don't agree with most of what you are saying.  I just didn't think it right to call out people on a message board 1) that has passed away, and 2) that was not here to defend himself.

[Scott]

Parker, if you go back and re-read my posts on this thread, you'd know I don't think that everyone selling pups is out to "hook" someone. I have no problem whatsoever with folks selling dogs...it's their property to do with as they choose.

So, you don't replace on guarantee, you give the money back. Is that just the purchase price or the purchase price plus all costs of raising the dog until it is culled or returned to you?

What exactly is "everything" that you would be out of by taking a free pup off proven producers? And yes, I know and understand what proven producers/reproducers are.

Ultimately, I don't care what anyone else does with their dogs/pups...sell them or give them away, it makes no difference to me. They're not my dogs. But it would seem as though you believe any dog or pup that doesn't have a price tag could never be a quality dog. And, that my friend, could not be further from the truth.

And as for you last comment...in my experience, you are way off on your culling percentage. You see, quality is quality whether you purchase it, or someone trusts you enough to give it to you. The catch is, you have to know what quality is, if you don't, I'd imagine your stated 7 out of 10 to be culls is probable.

[dgdawsonBMCs]

Barlow - Back to registering the first BMC.  I know that BMC is a fairly new term the last 30 or so years, but you mention a dog that was registered in 1974.  What dog and what organization?

[crackerc]

Bryant,

I have hunted with 11, count them, 11 YBM dogs that came directly from Randy Wright over the past 12 years or so and of those 11, only 1 ever found a hog while I was hunting with it.

The one that DID find a hog by himself (a dog named Wylie), bayed a boar hog in a thicket one night, we heard him get cut as we were on the way in on a cow trail with my Rock dog on a lead to catch the hog. As we were going in, Wylie passed us on the cow trail going to the truck. We went in and caught the hog with Rock, and no bay dog there......So no, I don't think its a bold statement. The Wylie dog was purchsed directly from Randy Wright by a guy named Marty Stevens as a finished hog dog. I have never owned a Randy Wright/WB dog, nor do I intend to.

These are my personal experiences hunting with dogs directly from Randy Wright and I have witnesses that were on every hunt.

I am sure he must has produced some good dogs,as many as he has raised,  but I haven't hunted with them.

Official state bear dogs??? Are you telling me the WB dogs are now state bear dogs??? And the people in New Jersey are hunting them too(course they probably don't know which end of the dog wags in N.J.)  LOL   Man I have heard it all now...

Larry Parker, you, I and the other guys that have  Brand X dogs need to just cull what we have and get the WB dogs. They catch hogs, work cows, trail prisoners, tree bears, wash your truck, go to the store and get beer for you, etc.......LOL

[Bryant]

Bryant,

I have hunted with 11, count them, 11 YBM dogs that came directly from Randy Wright over the past 12 years or so and of those 11, only 1 ever found a hog while I was hunting with it.

The one that DID find a hog by himself (a dog named Wylie), bayed a boar hog in a thicket one night, we heard him get cut as we were on the way in on a cow trail with my Rock dog on a lead to catch the hog. As we were going in, Wylie passed us on the cow trail going to the truck. We went in and caught the hog with Rock, and no bay dog there......So no, I don't think its a bold statement. I have never owned a Randy Wright/WB dog, nor do I intend to.

Very interesting.  I will tell you that of all the MANY people that I pesonally know that have and use these dogs, you are in the minority.  Like I said before, they are no superdog (and I do not use them exclusively) but I feel they are well bred dogs that serve their purpose.  In my opinion, Randy (whom I know personally) has a better grasp on canine genetics that anyone else I have even known or spoken with.

Official state bear dogs??? Are you telling me the WB dogs are now state bear dogs??? And the people in New Jersey are hunting them too(course they probably don't know which end of the dog wags in N.J.)  LOL   Man I have heard it all now...

I not going to waste my time proving what is fact.  Paul & Maria Davidson (game biologists for the state of LA) are keepers of Lousiana's state dogs and in fact the dog I sold Cull Buck is a pup from the Lousiana dogs.

Quickly, here's something I had bookmarked.  I call your attention to the bottom of page twelve of this article.

http://www.state.nj.us/dep//fgw/pdf/2004/bear_report04.pdf

Perhaps they don't "know which end of the dog wags in N.J.", but I would imagine they (along with other states) had the money to buy whatever they felt like was the best.

I will say no more...