Dog breeding question - Barlow, BigO, Parker, Texashogdogs, etc

[crackerc]

"A fool and his money are soon parted"...truer words were never spoken. And the state of New Jersey, like other states, is run by politicians spending tax payers money on something they know nothing about.

How many dogs do you actually think the people from NJ went and HUNTED with prior to buying dogs? I would bet none or very few. They sat in an AC office, researched them on the internet and found some "wonder dogs" that were for sale.

Its easy to think you have the best dogs around when you haven't  been to the woods with many.......

Not trying to get in a pissing match, I have just been in this game a long time and know how things work.

[parker]

 scott ....  the   pups  are  guaranteed ..... thats  it ....purchase  price .....  sometimes  i  fork  outa  good bit  more  than  i  sold  em  for  to  get  em  back  for  breeding  stock ..... you  can  find the  best  dog  you  ever  owned standing  on  side  the  road  somewhere .... but how  many  you have  to  go  through  to  get  one  good  one .....it  and  investment  even  if the  pup  is  free ....  if  its free they  usually  want  it  back if  you get  rid  of  it ....

fact  is  fact ...you WILL NOT   get the  caliber  dog  i  raise  consistantly from  freebies or  give me's ...i  don't  care  who  believes  it  or  not  i  get  better  than  90 %  turn out  on  most  every  litter ....thats  just a  fact ....if  any  of  you  don't  believe  it  come  see..... go  to  my  web board  and  ask  the   people  that  own  em ....

[WAARHEID]

Bryant and Crackerc... consider that it is possible that you are both right. It is possible for one man to have a string of bad luck with a certain line, and another man to have really good run with that same line. It is possible... just sayin'.

[Bryant]

How many dogs do you actually think the people from NJ went and HUNTED with prior to buying dogs? I would bet none or very few. They sat in an AC office, researched them on the internet and found some "wonder dogs" that were for sale.

Actually, they hunted and watched the dogs work with two other states.  They were satisified that the dogs would suit their intended purpose, so they bought pups...mimic'ed the training techniques of others and are satisfied with what they have.  What more could they ask for?

Please don't think I'm trying to get into a argument, either.  I've also been in this game a long time (not as a breeder) and have my own opinion of how things work.  

You know what *I* think is the biggest demise to the hunting breeds of dogs?  Every Tom, Dick, and Harry "back-yard breeder" breeding half-cocked dogs and flooding the market with these $50 piece of junks that get passed from person to person until finally someone else ends up with them and breeds them AGAIN!  This is one of my biggest pet peaves...sounds so simple, yet there are those who simply don't understand that great dogs are not produced by crossing junk.

Bryant and Crackerc... consider that it is possible that you are both right. It is possible for one man to have a string of bad luck with a certain line, and another man to have really good run with that same line. It is possible... just sayin'.

WAARHEID,

I agree, and what you state is what I could see being so difficult about breeding for the public.  Everyone's expectations can vary. (But I will agree with crackerc, that ALL should at least FIND a hog!)

I am not endorsing Randy's line of dogs.  I have owned, raised and hunted some but honestly there is one thing about the dogs that I don't prefer and that's the fact that they tend to be closer range hunting dogs.  VERY GOOD, and I would not hesitate to say above average dogs, but nonetheless but I'm sticking with what works best for ME and my style.

[UNDERDOG]

fact  is  fact ...you WILL NOT   get the  caliber  dog  i  raise  consistantly from  freebies or  give me's ...i  don't  care  who  believes  it  or  not  i  get  better  than  90 %  turn out  on  most  every  litter ....thats  just a  fact ....if  any  of  you  don't  believe  it  come  see..... go  to  my  web board  and  ask  the   people  that  own  em ....

Parker, I think your missing the point....if some one has a program (like your self lets say) you don't think if you farmed or gave one to a like minded hunter it would not turn out...I think you are useing freebies and gimmie dogs in refrence to internet  classified junk not well bred and thought out breedings from solid lines of dogs,I have had and have some pretty good dogs given in friendship...some worked real good others did not,have had better luck w/ friends vs the high dollar promoted type dogs...culled many more of them than the others.

[Bryant]

Bryant, (cool name by the way)

I think (and Larry would probably agree) that giving pups away to people you know and trust is very different that just giving away to anyone..at least that's the way I see it.

[UNDERDOG]

Bryant, (cool name by the way)

I think (and Larry would probably agree) that giving pups away to people you know and trust is very different that just giving away to anyone..at least that's the way I see it.

Very cool name indeed lol....I agree w/you, konowing Scott I think Larry was missing what Scott was getting at as I don't beleive that he (Scott) just hands dogs out to anyone. I myself very seldome sell a terrier...too many years of work in them for anyone else to have them and breed them different than my plans,usually keep the whole litter between myself and partner,eval them cull them and work what works...

[Scott]

fact  is  fact ...you WILL NOT   get the  caliber  dog  i  raise  consistantly from  freebies or  give me's ...i  don't  care  who  believes  it  or  not  i  get  better  than  90 %  turn out  on  most  every  litter ....thats  just a  fact ....if  any  of  you  don't  believe  it  come  see..... go  to  my  web board  and  ask  the   people  that  own  em ....

Parker, I think your missing the point....if some one has a program (like your self lets say) you don't think if you farmed or gave one to a like minded hunter it would not turn out...I think you are useing freebies and gimmie dogs in refrence to internet  classified junk not well bred and thought out breedings from solid lines of dogs,I have had and have some pretty good dogs given in friendship...some worked real good others did not,have had better luck w/ friends vs the high dollar promoted type dogs...culled many more of them than the others.

Thanks Bryant, that's exactly the point I was trying to make.

[TexasHogDogs]

You know what *I* think is the biggest demise to the hunting breeds of dogs?  Every Tom, Dick, and Harry "back-yard breeder" breeding half-roostered dogs and flooding the market with these $50 piece of junks that get passed from person to person until finally someone else ends up with them and breeds them AGAIN!  This is one of my biggest pet peaves...sounds so simple, yet there are those who simply don't understand that great dogs are not produced by crossing junk.

Bryant you could not have hit the nail on the head any harder with this statement !
Very well said , very , very well said!

This hurts the game as bad as anything does.   I will say this if you give a dog away to a friend and if he is a real friend that wants to hunt and knows the kind of dogs you have he will respect that dog but you cannot just give anybody a dog most people think they know the everything there is to know about a hunting dog and end up not knowing Jack.  You give a man a dog like this and because he has not paid his hard earned money for it he does not respect the dog and the dog gets abused because of it.  I have given more dogs away than I think I have ever sold and I have found this to be true nearly 100% of the time they just don't respect the dog as much as they would as if they paid you good money for it .

If  I got a breeding program going on and I make a breeding and have pups I have put that breeding together expecting the best are I would not have made the breeding I don't see how I could tell if the pup I was giving away was going to be any less dog than the one I was selling  from another breeding .  How can you know this being bred from the same family of dogs ?  When I make breedings from any one of my dogs the offspring all have the potential to make great dogs because of there Dad and  Mom and genetic history behind them so how can I give one away knowing he wont end up being the best dog I ever produced,  I don't understand that.

I will say this I'm sure there are some great breeders out there that produce a large amount of dogs to the public that still care about the dogs and try there best to put out the best they can but on the other hand there is a large amount of commercial breeders out there that don't give a damn about noting but papers on a dog and money in t here pocket and  ,  I got to admit I'm sure not every breeder that produces a large about of pups has bad intentions and do still care about the dogs and there heritages and tried to keep them with in the range of greatness,

[dgdawsonBMCs]

All dogs are not producers, so it is possible.  I hunt Ben dogs off of yellow jacket one of his sons (I believe the best producer).  So, I can't really debate the rest of the dogs, other than I have heard some similar results as crackerc mentions, particularly among the bounty hunter strain...All I know is I love the Jack dogs and of the few litters I have had (and the several friends have had), I don't personally know of any dogs that wouldn't at least bay a hog and most make good find dogs.  

[barlow]

DG . . . this is all from memory but I want to say the dog was registered in April of 74 with Tom Stodghill's Animal Research Foundation by a man in Florida. Bruno wasn't born til October of 74. A fellow that I know called the registries and did some asking a few years back when the "first registered BMC" debate was going on . . . on another site. I did speak personally with the previous owner of NKC and he told me the timeline and circumstances on the first Ladner dog being registered.

I've owned a dog or dogs from Ladner and Carnathan breeding and while both produce some usable dogs . . neither of those bloodlines produce many of the type I prefer. But we all hunt differently and I'm looking for a special dog.

I've never even layed eyes on a dog from Larry Parker or Randy Wright so when I post about my preferences or my experiences or what I choose to do with my dogs I hope it isn't being taken as a slight against either of them. I know there are a lot of hunters who like what they've gotten from both of those breeders and that must count for something.

As for the family of dogs standing in my backyard . . there are probably a lot of folks with better hog dogs. I hunt several days a week with Bob Owens and I get my ass handed to me regularly . . . but that's by a man with older, finished hog dogs who has been breeding towards one goal for over 30 years vs. this Yankee and some young, bear bred Plotts. I have a ways to go, for sure. Now, if any of you would like to see how yours do on bears then bring your best and let's go.  It's a different sport.

I know that from these dogs that I have bred . . . every one I ever sold or gave or traded away made a good to great dog except one that I know of. That was a young female pup and she was re-sold at nine months old and her second owner says she made an excellent dog and he's now bred two litters out of her. That is a 100% success rate. As for the ones I keep for myself from those same litters . . . seems like I get about one in ten that pleases me. Either I'm a lousy hand with dogs or I'm lousy at picking pups or some folks are more easy to please.

[parker]

what  i hunt  is  about  as close  to  being  a  hound  and  not  being a  hound ..... probably  some  of  the  old  mountain  cur  in there  blood ..... 

[WAARHEID]

I know that from these dogs that I have bred . . . every one I ever sold or gave or traded away made a good to great dog except one that I know of. That was a young female pup and she was re-sold at nine months old and her second owner says she made an excellent dog and he's now bred two litters out of her. That is a 100% success rate. As for the ones I keep for myself from those same litters . . . seems like I get about one in ten that pleases me. Either I'm a lousy hand with dogs or I'm lousy at picking pups or some folks are more easy to please.

That pretty much sums up the truth of this whole thread right there. Thank you Barlow.   

[dgdawsonBMCs]

Barlow makes pretty good sense there....Can I ask what the 9 out of 10 get culled for?  Is there something the are consistently missing, or is it a differnt combination of things..  In other words, do you think they are missing something genetic, or could they possbily not be showing you what you want early enough.  I am just trying to see the differnces in the picky people and some that aren't so picky.

I know that you want a dog that goes and finds game and hunts hard.  You want one to go as far as he can to bay game.  What I am trying to find out is what else you cull for that maybe the average hunter wouldn't

Just trying to learn as much as possible about different hunting styles...

[skoalbandett]

The thing on percentagest to me is, it's really all but a moot point without more knowledge on who is establishing the benchmark for what that is as well as their definition of what good is and what a cull is. I really dont think hearing it is good enough either. That is something that sure isnt universal. I mean, it's like what a cull is to one man is like the same thing as the definition of what good is. I promise you that criteria, definition and standards are all over the board, every person has their own. I see it hunting wtih people from everywhere and have for years.  How are you going to know what any man's criteria or standards truely are for sure  without seeing it and seeing it first hand and on several occasions with several different dogs? I promise ya listenting to them may sure not establish that, at least for me. Yep, I have seen some awful good ones but by in large, that wasent the case.
This percentage thing  when talking about numbers is also deceptive. Big O talks about his percentages... Knowing BigO like I do and hunting with him for the many years I  have hunted with  him, I seriously doubt there is a man alive who has any stricter definition of what good is or what a cull is or what just a decent dog is than he applies to  his OWN dogs.  Now he dont set there and judge your dog if you are in the woods with him, he honestly dont care and proud for you if you are happy with it,  he is watching  and judgemeing his own dogs, every minute of every hunt. He aint gona say a word about yours unless you ask. I have seen a many a dog he culled, didnt like  or was using short term that he just considered a decent dog,that completely satisfied another man. It's this way in the woods with him,  How many people go to the woods and only see and talk about the few good things a dog dose and ignore the 20  things he did bad or didnt do when they are going to place a tag on him or judge him ?  
Bottom line those percentage numbers are are based on opinions and are skewed in terms of what one mans definition are and what another mans definition may be. In his case, his percentages might be 90% for one man yet, 10% for him. Same goes for other folks I know well.

And Larry Parker. I've heard your name for several years, always favorably. I'd love to hunt with you sometime or at least call you up and b.s. about good dogs.

 Mr Parker..I think Barlow is correct about wanting to come hunt with you if you would allow it. I myself would love to come down and hunt with you and your dogs to see all this for myself. I havent found it yet but I am always looking for a better line of hog dogs and try to keep a open mind about such. If you got em, I sure may do all I can to get some of them. I am not doubting you, just one of those old boys that should be from Mo. and have to litterly see it to be satisfied.  
 I have been to the woods with guys over the years who had a dog they said was a parker cur or that they had parker curs. That is something you just never know for sure is the truth or not. I would like to see them go several times and would like to know some folks in this part of the world or at least somewhere in east texas who have the real mccoy that I could maybe go hunt with. ( Athens, Texas area )
 Thanks, look forward to hearing from you.

[barlow]

LACK OF IMPROVEMENT. HaHa.

It just depends. Sometimes it's just the fact that I know I only wanna keep one and I keep weedin thru em til I choose what I think is the best. There's always gonna be one that's the best.

Track speed or that ability to go from grubbing out a tough track to picking the head up and shifting into high gear has been a factor a few times. It seems to come as a learned trait in this line of dogs. At young ages they make determined track dogs and will take the first one they come to and try to work it out even if the track is beyond their skill or experience level. And at that stage they can tend to babble a bit on track. Both of these things improve with hunting. They learn to solve problems and make guesses about trailing and they learn that once the trail starts to heat up they no longer have to stick their head in it. They also start to open less and less til you can tell pretty clearly what they are doing based on how they open. I have a young gyp now that is almost silent or sometimes is silent til she locates and begins to bay.

Late starters. I always figured that late starters more often produce late starters so I don't want to go down that road and end up keeping dogs for two years to see what they'll do. Some argue that late starters may make the best finishers but I just don't have the patience.

Timid. Have given up on a few because they were man shy or because of a similar trait that runs in these dogs. Isn't the same as being shy but they are a little overly sensitive and can not take a scolding and certainly not an ass whipping.

Lack of desire. Have seen dogs that will climb in a bear's pocket and fight for all their worth, but when he breaks and leaves out they come back to the truck. To me that is just a lack of desire and a fatal flaw. Lack of desire manifests itself in plenty of other ways in other lines but this has been my experience twice now within this family. I will not tolerate a quitter.

Size or conformation concerns. This may sound stupid to some folks but going back on one side of this family of dogs there are some size issues. I can trace it back for you to about 1930 in my pedigrees. If it goes unchecked you'll end up with 25 and 30 pound dogs and that is too small for me. I had a nice young gyp that was about 28 pounds and I bred her to a right-sized male and only kept right sized pups and am being careful and culling for size with that side of the family til I know I have it under control. If you look you'll find that nothing happens without a reason. The dogs behind this size issue in my dogs pass on a hereditary thyroid problem. The Thyroid affects growth. Can also lead to early onset sterility. So, in a sense I'm not culling for size . . I'm culling for a hereditary thyroid condition when it manifests itself as a size problem.

But on the other hand I've raised dogs that others might have culled just because I had a good feeling about them. I don't think you can take the human condition out of your breeding program no matter how hard you try. We are all susceptible to liking a pup based on some silly thing it did as a 4 week old baby or because he looks like old so and so . . and we'll keep giving them special treatment or extra opportunities. That's the difference between our culling and that of Mother Nature. She don't give a damn about cute or sentimental. You'll never see a retarded or deformed deer who lives to breed in the wild just because his great grand dad had a 20 point rack.

[crackerc]

Very good points made by several guys in this post. I don't know it all or have all the answers, all I have to go by is what I have seen in the woods. I have hunted behind many dogs in the past 30 + years , owned by me and many other people, and have seen a few real good dogs, several good dogs, a bunch of average dogs and a whole bunch that probably need to be pushing up roses somewhere......

I am sure there are some good W Ben type dogs out there or they wouldn't be popular. I just have never hunted with one that I liked...not yet anyway.

All my dogs don't make "good" dogs I am sure, but again, "good" is kind of like "beautiful"...its in the eye of the beholder. What is good for one guy may not make the grade for someone else.

I think the difference in my dogs is, I hunt one dog out most of the time. If the dog doesn't go hunting, find, stop, bay and/or catch a hog alone, or catch with a catchdog, over and over again, under different hunting conditions and places it isn't a "good" dog to me and won't stay here. Lots of you guys hunt several dogs out and thats fine, I have no problem with that, its your style. As long as you don't have 10 bay dogs and 2 bulldogs on a 60 lb sow anyway.....

I don't want a dog that relies on another dog to go with it, to hunt. Thats not my style. But I am sure it doesn't suit everyone and thats okay.

[dgdawsonBMCs]

Sounds to me like I may want one of Bob's best culls .   How do you go about getting one of those?  You know, one of those that made it up until the last hurdle so to speak

[skoalbandett]

I hope we get back to that point pretty soon Greg..   Best older dogs are either gettin to old or got killed this year, some younger ones  have had to step up and doing ok with it.  Been a rough couple  years around here for our dogs.  We're Pretty hopful about hookin up with clue this year and doing some breeding for each other and swapin some pups around,, Several of us are all  are trying to beed strong back into the old dogs that sired  the litter Henry and Bob's old Punch dog  was in.   We always have used that  Punch dog as the foundation for our dogs, but we got short  in the last few  years.  . We;ve  got several nice pups to start this fall inbred back to the old dogs, pretty hopeful about them. If one comes along, I'll let ya know.

[dgdawsonBMCs]

thanks...I would love to have some of that blood that made ben famous..