Breeding for Results...

[Reuben]

I believe the best way to breed better dogs is to breed the best to the best from with a family of dogs...and "family" meaning line breeding and inbreeding...Identify an exceptional male or female after about 3 generations and then use that dog for closer family breeding...

If I had a line of hard hunting, gritty strike dogs and wanted a little more grit and jaw power I would find the right color and performance game bred pit bull to breed in to my line of dogs...I would then pick the best pup from that litter and breed back into my line which would put me at 3/4 of my line of dogs...I would then get a few of these pups from that cross and hunt them with the pack and those would be bred back in again so it would go from 3/4 to 7/8 of my line of dogs...The idea is to dilute some of the traits that are undesirable and keep what is desirable so as to reproduce consistence...

If the first time cross of half breeds are too inconsistent then get rid of those crossed pups and look for another line of bull dogs that has all the required traits and try again...

In my mind when one wants to breed more grit then don't use a loose baying dog with a gritty dog if at all possible...breed grit to more grit...I see this all the time when folks breed hound to cur for more hunt...breed dogs that already have decent hunt to one that has more hunt...

more grit...don't breed a loose baying strike dog to a bull dog...find a gritty cur dog and breed to the right bull dog...

When breeding a bull dog to a cur...breed a leggy slender type bull dog because your dog will need the stamina to make long runs...a barrel chested heavily muscled dog runs out of wind pretty quick...

animals that are bred to run might have slightly wider ribs towards the back for lung capacity...but towards the front legs the ribs become oval shaped for narrowing...this allows for better and free movement of the front legs...dogs and other animals built this way spend less energy while running because of the fluid motion...JMO

any other theories or beliefs???

 ETHD is getting a little slow right now...must be the heat so I thought I would throw this out there and get some discussion going...

[WayOutWest]

Rueben, I agree with most of what you said but wonder why color of dog has anything to do with the breeding program. I been runnin bulldogs for over 30 years and never cared what color they were. As long as they got there job done.

[Tiffany]

always wondered this ..... if you were going to breed a pit to a bird dog for an example, and lets say the pit was the male and the bird was the female, would the pups be more like the daddy , more like the momma , half pits and half birds , or a good combo of both ?? guess what im trying to ask is , if you wanted dominate traits from one dog and just a touch of the other , does it matter whos the male and whos the female in the breeding ??  lets say i wanted a  leggy dog with great nose , lots of hunt ,stamina and grit ...... should the female be the bird dog or should the female be the pit for the breeding ?  or does it matter as long as you use good genetics on both sides ?  thanks

[buddylee]

No way to tell what you'll get with breeding 2 dogs. My pit bred my very soft Catahoula and the one puppy she had was insane on hogs. Way rougher than the pit. Gotta keep most of the litter and weed out what u want and don't want. As far as line breeding vs out crosses, I see no disadvantage breeding out if the outcross comes from dogs like yours. I think some line breeding with an out from similar or better quality dogs is a positive.

[KevinN]

Rueben, I agree with most of what you said but wonder why color of dog has anything to do with the breeding program. I been runnin bulldogs for over 30 years and never cared what color they were. As long as they got there job done.

Crossing in an ugly ass bulldog that gets the job done or a good lookin bulldog that gets the job done?

Heck yeah...I'm gonna choose a color I like. Why would you not!?

[Reuben]

WayOutWest...it doesn't matter just a preference thing...I like solid colored dogs and don't care for much white on a dog...but performance comes way before color...

Tiffany...some folks say it matters who the dam and sire will be but I really don't think it matters...but that is just me...Just like anyone one else I could be wrong...one thought that has been brought up is this...and it makes sense...if the dam is the pit bull then the pups will at least learn from the dam because they spend the first 6 or 8 weeks with her...so this is a learned behavior and not a behavior driven genetics...so if the dam is the cur...very young pups are very impressionable so there might be some truth to that...

[KevinN]

And I hear you Reuben!

I chose the path I did because I don't want super rough dogs. I want what I have (regarding Jasper) with just a touch more gritt.

[BA-IV]

Well families had their origins from two dogs in the beginning that were most likely non-related.

Like I was told once, your once in a lifetime dog, well it was better then its parents so why was that? That throws a kink in the thought process right there. Don't get me wrong, I'm a firm believer in line breeding and in breeding, but at the end of the day, it's best to best and hope for the best. 

And this will ruffle a few feathers I'm sure.  But if you are having to breed your dogs to something else for this or that, was your dogs even that good to begin with, probably not. A hog dog doesn't need this or that, it needs a ride to the woods is all. I can ask that cuz I raise, feed, and hunt plenty of culls myself.

[KevinN]

Truth In those words Ben.

If your somehow lucky enough to put a few truly great...grad "A" hog dogs together from here and there then you've got a hell of a deal.

Most aren't that lucky.

Until a man gets EXACTLY what he's looking for out of his yard it's all trial and error, hit and miss. You do what you can just to maintain what you have and you try to improve on it even slightly when you get the chance.

[chainrated]

Say you had two linebred littermate brothers. One was an exceptional dog but out of 3 litters didn't produce the same as himself and only threw average dogs for his line. Would you breed the lesser brother? And if you did and he threw above average dogs for the line which one would you continue to breed to?
Best to best is not always the best. Half of the time there is a lesser littermate that will produce much better dogs if they are linebred.

[YELLOWBLACKMASK]

Best to the Best until the cross fails to produce.......then find out which link is the weak one.  Typically just one.

Some......are just not genetic producers or cannot reproduce the desired traits to the offspring.  (Mostly its piss poor judgment of quality by the breeder.....to an inferior dog) 

If you have a hot to trot male or gyp.......take the time to find another match that is either as good....OR BETTER to breed to. 

Can a line littermate that is the lesser dog produce a great batch of pups over the better littermate ?.....Sure.......but rarely consistently.     There is a reason he or she is Second best.......and that in my book is called (Lacking)

[reatj81]

And this will ruffle a few feathers I'm sure.  But if you are having to breed your dogs to something else for this or that, was your dogs even that good to begin with, probably not. A hog dog doesn't need this or that, it needs a ride to the woods is all. I can ask that cuz I raise, feed, and hunt plenty of culls myself.
[/quote]
I have never seen an animal that their was not still room for improvement.  But that's just my opinion.

[TexasHogDogs]

Say you had two linebred litter mate brothers. One was an exceptional dog but out of 3 litters didn't produce the same as himself and only threw average dogs for his line. Would you breed the lesser brother? And if you did and he threw above average dogs for the line which one would you continue to breed to?
Best to best is not always the best. Half of the time there is a lesser litter mate that will produce much better dogs if they are line bred.

HALLELUJAH THE ANGELS ARE DANCING IN HEAVEN  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes sir brother !  Amen !  Damn its been a long long time since I seen somebody say this!  When you got heavy line bred to inbred family's of dogs it is not always the best perform ace dog in the liter that is going to be the producers of great dogs.   A whole lot of the time when it is heavy heavy family bred it is the Ole ordinary good but not great bro are sister that is the real producer in the liter.

Why is this you ask well usually it will be the one that has the most are is showing the most inbred defects .  In this I mean he will be slower not be as fast maybe not breath as good as his super star bros are sisters he will show the defects from the heavy breeding.   What does this tell you ?   Well it tells you that to make super dogs there has to be some hybrid vigor take effect in the breedings in order for the super stars to perform the way they do ,  so that tells you their gene pool is not as pure as the Ole regular brother are sisters is .   So what does this tell you well it tells you that that Ole regular bro are sister that are showing some inbred defects is the one that is packing the concentrated gene pool of all the dogs in the liter .  Now what does that tell you well it tells you that this Ole reg bro are sisters is just liable to be the ones that can throw that concentrated gene pool to make those super stars that is family is known for.

When breeding it is not all the time about who is the best and breeding best to best even tho a lot of folks sling it around ,  I myself think it just makes them feel like they got big balls with out the experience to really know what they are talking about but the people that have bred many dogs and many liters know what this man here chainrated just spoke of.  It takes a lot of breeding and a lot of studying of breeding to even realize this !

Great post Chainrated !

[TexasHogDogs]

And this will ruffle a few feathers I'm sure.  But if you are having to breed your dogs to something else for this or that, was your dogs even that good to begin with, probably not. A hog dog doesn't need this or that, it needs a ride to the woods is all. I can ask that cuz I raise, feed, and hunt plenty of culls myself.

If this is true then all I got to say is man there is a lot of us that are just breeding pure Chit then.  I been a breeder of dogs a long long time and I aint never seen a line of dogs so good that they could stand on their on for years and years of heavy line and inbreedings.  Without needing this are that and yes a cross to something to bring back out what they once had because they aint gonna get it from the family any more because there is no room for the gene pool to breath because it is so stagnated.  A line can only take so much and then go stagnant with its on gene pool !   

[Reuben]

Best to the Best until the cross fails to produce.......then find out which link is the weak one.  Typically just one.

Some......are just not genetic producers or cannot reproduce the desired traits to the offspring.  (Mostly its piss poor judgment of quality by the breeder.....to an inferior dog) 

If you have a hot to trot male or gyp.......take the time to find another match that is either as good....OR BETTER to breed to. 

Can a line littermate that is the lesser dog produce a great batch of pups over the better littermate ?.....Sure.......but rarely consistently.     There is a reason he or she is Second best.......and that in my book is called (Lacking)

I never bred second best on purpose so I wouldn't know from experience...however...it has been written by others many times...

[Reuben]

Texashogdogs...you are for sure right about stagnation with too much linebreeding/inbreeding...I reckon it is a double edged sword...not enough of it gives a high level of inconsistency when looking at pups that perform from such breedings...to much of it gives you smaller weaker pups...I never really experienced this problem because I bred another line of similar type dogs but freshened up with just enough to keep my dogs almost the same as before but with that small amount of new blood...if I were younger I would do it again...but it takes lots of work and money to do it fast and right...

too much inbreeding causes inbreeding depression...I used to like the Kemmer "Gold Nugget" line of dogs...Nugget produced hard hunting cold nosed mt. curs...some made excellent hog dogs and fast on track but most were or are open...lots of folks tried to line breed or inbreed off of this dog in the kemmer association because he was a great coon dog...well this man I know got him a pup that was 7/8ths Gold Nugget bred and he named this pup "Gold Nugget JR" and that pup grew up to be one ugly dog and dumb as a rock...but when he was bred to the right kemmer females he threw some top of the line kemmer dogs...I bought one of his sons and he was a good dog that hand the hunt and he knew how to stop a hog...looked just like the original gold nugget...

Gold Nugget JR made it into the KSBA Hall of Fame just on his ability to produce champion hunting dogs...

[BA-IV]

And this will ruffle a few feathers I'm sure.  But if you are having to breed your dogs to something else for this or that, was your dogs even that good to begin with, probably not. A hog dog doesn't need this or that, it needs a ride to the woods is all. I can ask that cuz I raise, feed, and hunt plenty of culls myself.

I have never seen an animal that their was not still room for improvement.  But that's just my opinion.
[/quote]

I can certainly agree with this statement, and I'm a firm believer in an outcross when you are linebreeding dogs.  I've seen the effects of heavy linebreeding with no out crosses.

What I don't agree on is having to add to a line of dogs because they can't stop hogs, they don't have enough nose to get the job done, they're slow, and so on and so on.  I'm all for perfecting a line of dogs, BUT there is a huge difference in perfecting something and then having to breed because said dog couldn't get the job done. Just my opinion, always room for improvement, No doubt, but there's a difference there that should be able to be distinguished from.

[Cajun]

Their is a lot of truth in most of the statements posted. Most of the successful strains of dogs out there, that have held up over the years are linebred.jmo  Does this mean you cannot get good dogs from crossing two unrelated dogs. Of course not.
  Most of the linebred strains will focus on one particular dog that is outstanding. They will stack a pedigree around him. Now if things go right he has a son, daughter, grandson, or granddaughter that is outstanding so they will start stacking the pedigree around that dog. It goes on from there. Now here is the problem. All lines will start falling back towards the average without relentless culling & sooner or later, you have to make a outcross for hybrid vigor. Most of the time, when you make that outcross is when a superstar will rise to the top & then the focus will be on linebreeding that dog.
  None of these methods are guaranteed unless the dogs have all the qualities you like & their is still no guarantee the pups will come out like you want.lol
  I have had the most success with linebreeding & I still have dogs that do not meet my standard. Just the way it is. But, on the crosses that I make I can predict fairly accurate what the pups will be like. Like all litters some will be better then others.
  If it was easy, we would all be hunting superstars.

[Reuben]

a big part of a breeding program has to do with pup selection...we must do all we can to keep the right pups for hunting and breeding...I looked for hard hunting pups that started early and had the ability to locate game...Also looked for pups that went the distance at an early age...if we want the best then that is what we have to do...

here is another angle that really makes it hard breeding better hog dogs...

I am talking about breeding gritty to rough dogs...run 1 one these dogs and they don't bust bays but it also depends on how much grit the dogs has...run 2 dogs and they might keep the hog stopped...run more dogs and we have a long race because the hog will out run the dogs for a good while because dogs can not keep up with a hog that runs in the thickest brush...the dogs might get out ran in the thick brush also because of the heat...the same dogs in the winter will catch more hogs because most of the time the weeds and foliage are dead and the hogs can't use heavy cover to hide...not to mention the weather is cooler or cold which helps the dogs...think palmetto's are bad year round...

sometimes one gritty dog will keep a big boar stopped for hours if needed and when you get there the hog is wore down...so many different variables for different terrain and temperatures...

sometimes a loose baying dog with the aptitude to do all it can to stop the hog is the best way to breed...but I love a gritty dog...

x2...on the good discussion...

[Judge peel]

If you follow horse breeding its just like dog version but more money they take top winners and stick them to every thing close to the line and things out side the line to get winners and never make the one they started from but they get good stock. Then some guy has one from two nobodies and wins the big stakes I grew up around champion coon dogs and hunted coons with my grand paw and uncle they new there stuff and I was in the horse game to as are my kids I think all they really good one just happen and every one does things different and that doesn't say that they can't have kickers to jmo good luck to every one pure or cross I got both