Breeding for Results...

[Rocking Y]

The foundation dogs that we had died a few months ago before we could get another litter out of em. All I have left is a brother sister pair from them and another pair that came from the father and another cross. The ones that came from the first cross are better than the ones with the other gyp. So how should I breed them to try to get back what we originally had

[TexasHogDogs]

Rocking Y,

If you will go back on some of my post you will see that I introduced this Partin Floarida Cur into my line of dogs .  This is a major major cross into my line of dogs here .  I did this because I like what those dogs are and what they can bring .  Will it work well that remains to be seen but I bet the odds are very high in my favor because of how they been worked and culled over the years.  I done this because I already have my family of dogs set , I can go out there and breed any which dog in my yard to one another and they are all family so any way I go am still family breeding.  My main dog is my Horn dog and he is half Plott and half pure my family of dogs here and when I breed his liter I did it for a purpose because I knew in time I was going to need a outcross here on my yard for all my family dogs so now when I breed Horn to all these family bitches he throws that half plot into his pups which the pups will all have a 1/4 Plott in them and that little bit of a 1/4 is critical in what my pups will turn out to be .  I didn't know this Plott would click into my blood when I done it I took a chance and it has worked out real well for me here now .  Now I have done the same thing with this Partin Fla Cracker Cur I took him and I bred him to two hard core family pure family bitches one of the bitches is as tight of a family bred bitch as one could want on the ole Joe blood.  So now I will have to wait and see if this Partin dog is going to cross like I think it will with my ole Joe blood which am betting big it will .  Once all this is done and I find out this Partin dog clicks with my family blood then I will put all this together for the final end product  which will be a three way cross of bloods all proven to work together over time proven by me and tested by me ,  which will be my old heavy  family blooded dogs the Joe blood , the Partin Fla cur which is heavy heavy family blood in his family and the little bit of Plott blood that is in my Horn dog which that plot blood that was in him was 7 times Sizzlin Heat and like 8 times Alabama hammer .  All three bloods heavy heavy heavy in pure family blood and all heavy heavy proven in what they do .  Am about four five years away from this end product which is were I plan on seeing my best dogs over all this time of doing this.  Once that is over you will just go back to BACK CROSSING just like I just told you about in my post bringing the old blood of what made this line right back to the front !

Sorry that was long but a lot to say in a short space here .

[TexasHogDogs]

The foundation dogs that we had died a few months ago before we could get another litter out of em. All I have left is a brother sister pair from them and another pair that came from the father and another cross. The ones that came from the first cross are better than the ones with the other gyp. So how should I breed them to try to get back what we originally had

The bro x sister breeding was it a full bro x sister breeding are was it a half bro x half sister breeding ?

The one that came from the father x Cross ,  has this cross been used before in your dogs now and has it worked before and good and if so is it whats in your dogs now that you are wanting to breed to it  ?

Its hard to say and be on the bullseye without knowing your dogs.  I can only try to help you in the ways we bred dogs and the odds are in your favor .

[TexasHogDogs]

Family breeding is a whole lot different from best to best.  When you breed best to best you just roll the dice and hope to come up on seven are eleven no science to it you get what you get if it don't work you scrap it and go to the next best to the best.  Nothing wrong with that because some great dogs come from it and over years breeding best to best can turn into one hell of a family of dogs when it is put together .

Family breeding is all about knowing that your going to get high percentages when you breed liters threw a culled out family tree.

The thing people don't realize is , you can only go so tight are do so much family breeding without having a outcross put in to help your family to restore its vigor .  But this is critical and crutial the out cross you choose can make you are break you and if you make the wrong decision and get so so dogs from your cross and you say well those dogs were ok and then you go to breeding them into your family in about two gens your dogs are going to start going down hill .  The outcross you make is going to make your dogs .  People think its the family that matters the most but cannot be furtherest from the truth ,  the outcross that you have in those dogs is just as important and even more important really because the out cross is what is going to make your dogs .  I don't know how to explain that really .  Once the cross is done and you get great dogs do not think that it was just your family that made those dogs and that the outcross had very little to do with it because if you do you are sadly mistaken .  That's why when you use a out cross into your family you want it to be as heavy bred are harder than your family dogs and you want it culled as hard as your family dogs the harder bred the harder culled the outcross is the better and better your family of dogs is going to get once it is introduced into your family.  I don't give a damn how great the dog is  you breed to if he don't have noting to back him up you are living in a glass house and sooner are later it is going to all come crumbling down .

The house is only as strong as the foundation it sits on !

Long winded damn but its hard to put all this into a few words .

[Rocking Y]

The foundation dogs that we had died a few months ago before we could get another litter out of em. All I have left is a brother sister pair from them and another pair that came from the father and another cross. The ones that came from the first cross are better than the ones with the other gyp. So how should I breed them to try to get back what we originally had

The bro x sister breeding was it a full bro x sister breeding are was it a half bro x half sister breeding ?

The one that came from the father x Cross ,  has this cross been used before in your dogs now and has it worked before and good and if so is it whats in your dogs now that you are wanting to breed to it  ?

Its hard to say and be on the bullseye without knowing your dogs.  I can only try to help you in the ways we bred dogs and the odds are in your favor .

The cross I'm trying to do now is a half brother x half sister. The half brother I brought in is a cross we tried with a gyp of our friends and out of those we got two good puppies but the female puppy fell off so I ended up keeping the male. I like his roughness and aggression towards hogs. I'm thinking I could cross him with my gyp from the original foundation dogs to make some good puppies

[TexasHogDogs]

I will send u my number we can talk about it in private  if you like. I will try to help u out were I can.

[parker]

the best way to get back to your old dogs is keep the ones that look like them the most and line breed the better ones til you get  there ... that is simple and the way it is ...

[justincorbell]

the best way to get back to your old dogs is keep the ones that look like them the most and line breed the better ones til you get  there ... that is simple and the way it is ...

Mr. Parker, not asking this in a smartass way in any way shape or form. This is an honest question and I would like to hear your answer........ you say to keep the ones that look like them the most and line breed the better ones...... I am in a predicament of sorts.....I have an old male that I am trying to replicate. I have 1 male pup from him as of now and am currently working on a breeding with a close but not directly crossed gyp. Hopefully she will take and throw a decent sized litter so that I can expand my yard as far as his line goes.  The male pup I have is not turning on as quickly as I would like and has not been real consistent thus far. I have considered culling him due to his inconsistencies but am giving him a bit more time due to his age. If you were in my shoes would you hold onto this pup until you knew for sure that you had other replacements based off simply knowing that the breeding/genetics are there and purt near all other dogs of this line ARE hard hunting and consistent? OR would you cut your losses and hope for the best in future breedings?

[justincorbell]

Anyone who has any experience/ useful information regarding my above post please feel free to reply.

[parker]

well it all depends on how much breeding stock of  that old male is availble ?....... definately  if  you want more like him breed the ones  that look more like him and  pick the better ones  to breed back to each other ....you gonna have good and bad  in any breedings til you get lined out in agood  really inbreeding program ....  had  afriend of mine had an old dog that was a good dog he thoughtthe world  of but  he was of  mixed up blood  ....litters  would look like a box of chocolates ...last time he bred him he had  one pup looked just like the old  dog ....he kept him and one  female well she  turned  on perty good but didn't look nothing like his  old dog .. the male pup that looke dlike the old male  wasn't makeing it .... i told him keep the pup  breed him to something  of the bloodline if you can find one ..get  you a few pups that look like your old dog and kill the male since  he ain't much .... breed the good ones that look like the old dog and you will eventually get back to the old dog and probably breed more likeness of him than he did since he wasn't line or inbred..... well he  didn't and now he can't get one that looks like his  old dog . .he lost it ...  looks is the first sign of likeness  in any animal or human to show what the lenage is ....

[justincorbell]

well it all depends on how much breeding stock of  that old male is availble ?....... definately  if  you want more like him breed the ones  that look more like him and  pick the better ones  to breed back to each other ....you gonna have good and bad  in any breedings til you get lined out in agood  really inbreeding program ....  had  afriend of mine had an old dog that was a good dog he thoughtthe world  of but  he was of  mixed up blood  ....litters  would look like a box of chocolates ...last time he bred him he had  one pup looked just like the old  dog ....he kept him and one  female well she  turned  on perty good but didn't look nothing like his  old dog .. the male pup that looke dlike the old male  wasn't makeing it .... i told him keep the pup  breed him to something  of the bloodline if you can find one ..get  you a few pups that look like your old dog and kill the male since  he ain't much .... breed the good ones that look like the old dog and you will eventually get back to the old dog and probably breed more likeness of him than he did since he wasn't line or inbred..... well he  didn't and now he can't get one that looks like his  old dog . .he lost it ...  looks is the first sign of likeness  in any animal or human to show what the lenage is ....

10 4. I have access to the same bloodline just not direct descendants other than the male pup I am referring to. This line is all pretty tightly bred going back to each other one way or another for quite a few generationgs back. I am hoping that he makes it long enough to  for the pup out of his litter last year to hit her second heat to breed him back to her and if all goes well then to breed the best pup out of that litter to the best pup out of the litter I am trying to produce now. this would be a full brother to sister breeding just out of 2 seperate litters. I also have a hellacious little gyp that is out of bonnie's brother and another solid gyp ( bonnie is the gyp that I bred to last year and am trying to breed him to again right now) so I will have a cross available as far as preserving the momma's side.......

If you can't tell I'm not to experienced in line breeding, I have always just tried to breed best available to best available but I am trying to start breeding a bit tighter to produce more consistant litters and better dogs overall. Thanks for your help.

[parker]

sometimes you'll get a dominate producer of likness to themselves  ..other than that  you gotta linebreed and inbreed ....  man don't let people scare  you   with you gotta  have an outcross  cause  you to tight ....what do all the squirrels  rabbits   and barn rats do .... there so inbred it ridiculous ... it matter's if  you have  defects ...  keep with the dogs  you have til you get to perty much inbreeding keeping the better ones  and  you'll  be  way  way ahead  of  the game .....

[justincorbell]

sometimes you'll get a dominate producer of likness to themselves  ..other than that  you gotta linebreed and inbreed ....  man don't let people scare  you   with you gotta  have an outcross  cause  you to tight ....what do all the squirrels  rabbits   and barn rats do .... there so inbred it ridiculous ... it matter's if  you have  defects ...  keep with the dogs  you have til you get to perty much inbreeding keeping the better ones  and  you'll  be  way  way ahead  of  the game .....

thanks for the insight Mr. Parker.

[mike rogers]

what you got to remember when you outcross from the outside the family pool not only do you bring in the good genes, you bring in the bad ones too.  You can control what you have and what you want to produce from line breeding and inbreeding.   Outcrossing can be done and in some cases needs to be done, but remember that those undesirable characteristics are normally hidden until you make the cross.   I prefer to go further back into the same family  for the outcross.   It's still line breeding, but your going out of the box and opening the gene pool up,  but from the same family.   For example uncle to niece.   You can  pull out of a previous litters or even 2 litters prior and put on a daughter of your sire and dam.  If the uncle carries those desired characteristics that your hunting and has a lot of the same characteristics of the female and or the sire or dam, then you should be producing the same desirable dogs that took so long to build and breed.  Again this may not be the best cross. you may need to go great grandfather to grand daughter or so on so on.  The biggest concern in outcrossing is not knowing what undesirable characteristics you'll be introducing into your line.  And that may take a year off your breeding program and set you back.

We all start somewhere.  The best advise that I can give : " you'll never know until you make the cross" .  Live and learn.  Go to proven breeders that are producing dogs that have what you want and start putting it all together.  Remember not all best dog to best dog produce best dogs. Sometimes that crap just doesn't line up and you get a bunch of culls with one shining star.   We all want 100% on ever litter, but trust me thats harder than you think do, if not impossible. 


good luck with what ever you do.

[Reuben]

what you got to remember when you outcross from the outside the family pool not only do you bring in the good genes, you bring in the bad ones too.  You can control what you have and what you want to produce from line breeding and inbreeding.   Outcrossing can be done and in some cases needs to be done, but remember that those undesirable characteristics are normally hidden until you make the cross.   I prefer to go further back into the same family  for the outcross.   It's still line breeding, but your going out of the box and opening the gene pool up,  but from the same family.   For example uncle to niece.   You can  pull out of a previous litters or even 2 litters prior and put on a daughter of your sire and dam.  If the uncle carries those desired characteristics that your hunting and has a lot of the same characteristics of the female and or the sire or dam, then you should be producing the same desirable dogs that took so long to build and breed.  Again this may not be the best cross. you may need to go great grandfather to grand daughter or so on so on.  The biggest concern in outcrossing is not knowing what undesirable characteristics you'll be introducing into your line.  And that may take a year off your breeding program and set you back.

We all start somewhere.  The best advise that I can give : " you'll never know until you make the cross" .  Live and learn.  Go to proven breeders that are producing dogs that have what you want and start putting it all together.  Remember not all best dog to best dog produce best dogs. Sometimes that crap just doesn't line up and you get a bunch of culls with one shining star.   We all want 100% on ever litter, but trust me thats harder than you think do, if not impossible. 


good luck with what ever you do.

X2...

[Reuben]

X2...I was fixing to bring up what you said but in a different way...tight family breeding with best to the best breeding from within that family will be producing consistency...so quite a bit of desirable traits are displayed because they are doubled up recessives...a recessive trait to be displayed must get one gene from each parent of the same so lets say it is for ranging and hunting...so the tight bred dogs carry those recessives for that trait but when bred to an outside dog, and that outside dog just might be carrying a dominant for not hunting and when the dominant matches up with the recessive hunting trait then the dominant trait will be displayed...so lets say quite a bit of the desirable traits in that line of dogs are paired up recessives and the outside blood has quite a bit of dominant genes for the opposite....the result will be lots of culls...but since the tight bred line has to pass a recessive and the outside dog is carrying a double dominant or a dominant recessive then some of the pups will hunt but not more than half of the litter when dealing with averages...

The biggest thing about dog genetics is that I have not seen any studies on hunting traits...

[Reuben]

I suspect the hunting traits or lack of are not like a color gene but more like a wide range from no hunt to hunting hard to the point of heat stroke from not slowing down in hot weather...JMO

[justincorbell]

X2...I was fixing to bring up what you said but in a different way...tight family breeding with best to the best breeding from within that family will be producing consistency...so quite a bit of desirable traits are displayed because they are doubled up recessives...a recessive trait to be displayed must get one gene from each parent of the same so lets say it is for ranging and hunting...so the tight bred dogs carry those recessives for that trait but when bred to an outside dog, and that outside dog just might be carrying a dominant for not hunting and when the dominant matches up with the recessive hunting trait then the dominant trait will be displayed...so lets say quite a bit of the desirable traits in that line of dogs are paired up recessives and the outside blood has quite a bit of dominant genes for the opposite....the result will be lots of culls...but since the tight bred line has to pass a recessive and the outside dog is carrying a double dominant or a dominant recessive then some of the pups will hunt but not more than half of the litter when dealing with averages...

The biggest thing about dog genetics is that I have not seen any studies on hunting traits...

Regarding what I have hi-lighted in red.......answer me this if you can........My smoke dog bred to an old gyp named sue a little over a year ago resulting in the male pup that I was speaking about in my above post that is perfect conformation wise but has yet to put it together in the woods, I have owned 4 of the pups out of this same litter and have traded or given 3 of em away here and there to close friends for one thing or another but have held on to him since 6wks of age as far as I know none of the 4 that I have been around have made dogs which is VERY strange for the line...... My male has produced some great dogs and the female used in this breeding has produced ALOT of great dogs....... both of these dogs are as breed worthy as any i've been around, solid hard hunting no nonsense type dogs and i'm not trying to toot my horn in anyway or saying that because I own one of them, they just are. ( I did not make either of these dogs the dogs that they are today, I was got lucky enough to be involved with them) Anyway what would be your opinion as to why none of these pups have worked out thus far? Smoke was also bred to a daughter of sue last year named bonnie also resulting in 1 puppy, that puppy started hunting at 6mths old and has been on over 20hogs as of now at 10 months old, she is doing great........... I am currently making the same cross again breeding smoke back to bonnie and hopin n prayin for a decent sized litter to raise, with exception to a very small group of people the pups will all be staying with me..... Anyway, all this genetics/ breeding talk interests me but when I see 2 great dogs breed and the pups not work out it makes me wonder why.... To be completely honest Sue is a better dog than Bonnie, however bonnie has nowhere near the 12yrs experience as sue so it kinda all comes out in the wash, just weird to me......

[boone823]

Justin
 What I would do is breed your old male to a female that has the desired traits you are after. Then keep a couple females pups out of that litter. Take the best one and breed back to him.
Just my 2 cents

[Scott]

Justin, some lesser littermates will outproduce their littermate(s) that is/are stars. It's just how the genes line up. You have to remember that a pup can pull from any one dog in it's pedigree. That's why I always find it amusing when people say something to the effect that papers don't hunt. While that is true, if you want to make good/better dogs...you better know the pedigree of the dog, registered or not.