What Exactly is a Cur?

[charles]

In my mind a cur is a mutt also. With that being said I see catahoula , black mouth, mountain, and other cur dogs bread to a standard of look temperament and ability are indeed just another breed.

All these 1/4 this half that mixed up mess are cur dogs or mutts. I own some of these dogs and they get the job done but in my mind they are still mutts.

Until they are reproduced....exactly....10 generations.....to where every litter comes out near exact in confirmation and color.......are they still just mutts then?

I think it would take more than 10 generations. To me it would need to be able to take 2 dogs of same "breed" off different yards that would not be considered line bred to produce a consistent standard.

For example I have a red catahoula if u had a catahoula we should be able to breed these dogs and produce pups that are unmistakably catahoula. Same goes for black mouth or mountain or any other breed.

Until this point to me they are just mutts. They may be ur line or mine but they are a line at best not a breed.

I'm not trying to be confusing or insulting to anyone but this is the way I see it. Without a standerd adhered to by multiple lines of dogs that consistently produce the same standard they are line bred mutts or curs

perfect example.

[Reuben]

I know the topic is about cur dogs...but I want to point out what I have seen through my eyes (how I see it)...

Dobermans started out as a top breed of dogs that excelled in guard duty or protection and were built sturdy...over the years they have evolved as show dogs without regard for working attributes...now you see a 28 inch to 30 inch dog that is clumsy with a very narrow chest and narrow head...they breed true for color and other dobie qualities but I wouldn't own one...If I were to quite hunting and needed one dog just to piddle with it would be a working type Doberman and it probably would be 27 inches at the shoulder but a sturdy looking dog...

I am a big fan of the mt cur but nowadays lots of folks breed them to be closer ranging dogs and they breed them smaller with small ears...I like the old time colder nosed mt curs with some size to them...

the looks and actions of a line of dogs within a breed have more to do with the likes/dislikes of the breeder...

clear and strict standards will produce a breed that is easily recognizable...but over time it can be ruined by popularity or fads like most other breeds...

This here was the talk back in the 1970's and 1980's...field trials have ruined the breed...this talk was in the lab circles, coon hound circles and pointer circles and I probably missed some...The hunting lab folks were saying that the trials produced high strung hard headed dogs that were hard to control...and these dogs would tear up your yard...the coon hound hunting folks said the field trialers had ruined the coon hounds by producing go yonder dogs that looked for hot tracks and passed up some good tracks...they were hunting for dogs and not hunting with dogs...the pointer hunters were saying that the field trialers were ruining the breed because they were breeding dogs that left the country and you needed big country and a horse to hunt with the pointers because the pointers didn't hunt with you but for themselves...

In my opinion, the best dogs come from organizations that have performance and conformation standards that their dogs must meet to receive certificates... and the dogs that meet these requirements can be bred because they meet certain qualities that are required for hunting, and the physical qualities that are needed...so that the dog can perform in the environment where it will be working/hunting...

looks like I got off subject...

[Shotgun wg]

Rueben I have to agree. I own old style labs. They are the big labs with an athletic build and large heads. They are not the rotund dogs with skinny heads u see in shows. They are hearty head strong smart dogs with no quit and a willingness and natural aptitude to do the job intended. In any breed the ability to do the job intended should be first and foremost before the pet trade qualities.

[KevinN]

In my mind a cur is a mutt also. With that being said I see catahoula , black mouth, mountain, and other cur dogs bread to a standard of look temperament and ability are indeed just another breed.

All these 1/4 this half that mixed up mess are cur dogs or mutts. I own some of these dogs and they get the job done but in my mind they are still mutts.

Until they are reproduced....exactly....10 generations.....to where every litter comes out near exact in confirmation and color.......are they still just mutts then?

I think it would take more than 10 generations. To me it would need to be able to take 2 dogs of same "breed" off different yards that would not be considered line bred to produce a consistent standard.

For example I have a red catahoula if u had a catahoula we should be able to breed these dogs and produce pups that are unmistakably catahoula. Same goes for black mouth or mountain or any other breed.

Until this point to me they are just mutts. They may be ur line or mine but they are a line at best not a breed.

I'm not trying to be confusing or insulting to anyone but this is the way I see it. Without a standerd adhered to by multiple lines of dogs that consistently produce the same standard they are line bred mutts or curs

perfect example.

This is where I kind of disagree.....this is based on confirmation and color alone and ONLY AN EXAMPLE:

You can take 10 Walker Males, 10 Blue Leopard Catahoula Females, 10 Fawn Pittbulls Females and 10 Yellow Black Mouth Curs Males, every dog in each Breed being of different blood. You could cross all these dogs and The litters out of these dogs would sure enough be considered crosses, or "Mutts". Now you can select a Male and Female from each litter....with a certain confirmation and color (as near as possible) and make multiple breedings....always basing your selections on that confirmation and color until you build up a base of these Male and Female crosses or Mutts that are similar in confirmation and color but are in no way related.

You would take these pups and begin crossing them to come up with your "Mutt" that is 4 quarters of 4 different breeds....again making your selections based on confirmation and color only. Now we are only 2 generations into this program and we have a foundation stock of 40 1/4 Walker 1/4 Cat 1/4 BMC 1/4 Pitt Male and female dogs that you can get 20 breedings out of without crossing a related dog.

Continue your breeding.....selecting your pups on a strict confirmation and color and I would THINK....you could easily produce a litter of pups that are near identical in color and confirmation by the time you reach the 10th generation and continue to do so with said pups being only very distantly related.

Again this is only an example and doesn't even take into account hunting attributes. I HAVE to think this is how MANY breeds came about and I am in awe of how the men who did the work that it took to not only create these breeds but they did it while still accounting for the working ability of the dogs.

Genius

[Shotgun wg]

Kevin I agee with u based on color and confirmation but at 10 generations I still don't call that a breed. As I said above ability to do the intended job should be first and foremost.

There have been modern breeds bred over the last century. The Dogo is an example. While color and build we're accomplished giving it a consistency that is required to become a breed the hunting ability has not been refined and improved thru breeding. This is why they are still struggling in the hunting world. If u take a dog be it a cat Dogo walker or redbone that don't hunt or herd as intended it is not a good candidate for breeding regardless of how pretty it is or how proper the size.

These are my opinions and I am no expert. I am open to other opinions and welcome someone to enlighten me on the aspects of my opinion that are incorrect.

[KevinN]

Well....I'm not a fan of the Dogo but I would bet money the first few generations off the brothers yards did EXACTLY what they were bred for and yet still....did it well.

You have to take into account what happens to a breed once it is out in "Public" hands.

You can take the best bred dog and put it in the hands of someone who is not competent and that dog will not show it's full potential. Have that dog bred to dogs along the same lines (well bred but not handled properly) and the blood starts to decline.

[Shotgun wg]

I agree

[KevinN]

Also....along the DOGO line of thought. MOST people don't use them properly.

They were bred to hunt as a pack....all together. They werent bred to strike and bay but to strike and catch big dangerous game. They weren't bred for use as a single RCD or lead in CD.

[Shotgun wg]

That was just an example of a breed that has lots of mixed opinion about it. I do not own one or hunted with one although I would like to considering the original intent of the breeding fits the type of dogs I like. As far as find run and catch hogs.

[Reuben]

shotgun...I am not saying you are incorrect but I will say this...my belief is that we can lock in color and size pretty quick because it is visual...also depends on dominant and recessive genes to a certain extent...but I believe that dogs that don't preform consistently has more to do with folks not hunting/testing the dog...

with the dogo I believe that to be the case...we don't have to hunt the dog to know how he needs to look and what color it needs to be...but the majority of the dogos bred are bred without regards to working ability for different reasons...probably the biggest reason has to do with the lack of opportunity to prove the dog...as a result we have culls for working ability...but looks should remain..."Should" is key word here because some folks will breed even if the dog does not meet the visual standard to recoup the money or just to make a profit...

you can breed a redbone to a black plott one time and then breed the offspring back to redbone from now on and for many generations the black color can and will show up...has to do with color dominance and lack of breeding to a required standard... but why can't working traits or lack of not do the same???

[Shotgun wg]

It would be nice to breed ability with consistency in a few generations. Controlled breeding over lots of breeding will produce and reproduce natural aptitude but not always ability.

For instance

[thickethunter]

My family have be using currs  for 5+ generations they were first used to drive hogs to the working pens in the middle of the big thicket in southeasttexas around Saratoga and kountze we use them now for recreation and to get meat for the freezer. My granddaddy said they would drive herds of hogs to a set of pens .they would sort the hogs.he said you would have up to5-10 different family marks in the pens at one time.he said old school currs were long ,lanky and very gritty.they were very protective over the family mostly the children.

[HoosierGunNut]

You'd think with Curs being around for so long they would've been accepted as their own breed by the AKC or UKC or whoever it is that does that stuff

[charles]

The ukc does accept the bmc

[justincorbell]

My family have be using currs  for 5+ generations they were first used to drive hogs to the working pens in the middle of the big thicket in southeasttexas around Saratoga and kountze we use them now for recreation and to get meat for the freezer. My granddaddy said they would drive herds of hogs to a set of pens .they would sort the hogs.he said you would have up to5-10 different family marks in the pens at one time.he said old school currs were long ,lanky and very gritty.they were very protective over the family mostly the children.

May I ask your last name? not to be "that guy" but I know of a few families in the setex area that have been using currs for a LONG TIME in the china/nome/ batson/ saratoga area's

[HoosierGunNut]

The ukc does accept the bmc

Right on. I was under the impression that they were considered "mutts" for lack of a better word, not an actual breed. When did the UKC accept them?

[charles]

The ukc does accept the bmc

Right on. I was under the impression that they were considered "mutts" for lack of a better word, not an actual breed. When did the UKC accept them?

Dont know. In 2009 i got a pair from a guy just north of ok city. After bout 7mths of waiting, i finaly get the reg papers for them. Supposedly the parents were ukc reg, but unless the registry holds an x amount of reg # per parents just for the pups, the parents reg numbers were sequential with the puppy reg papers. So as of 2008 to current, i can only speak for. Im not sure bout the catahoula cur though, not sure if the ukc or nkc recognize or acknowledge them as a breed but they should.

The bmc pups i got from ok had the "text book" confirmation, build n color, but wouldnt do crap. I spent $700 on them n gave them away to a guy in ok. He said the fm turned out a good cow dog but the male popped smoke n wondered the area. Not sure whats goin on with them now

[Wmwendler]

First and foremost a cur is NOT a mix or a mutt.


The truest definition of cur that I can come up with is that individual types of cur dogs are simply dogs with common ancestry stemming from the needs of the local population from which they originated.

Meaning...

People in the Texas behind the pine curtain had to scratch out a livin off the land and employed the use of dogs as rugged, determined and mean as the early pioneers themselves. In the big thicket, alot of these folks were of peasant decent from the working class of scots, Irish and English ancestry. They would have brought with them several dogs from the old world such as lurchers, collies, shepards, some running and treeing hounds and game dogs among others. As with every area in America, this section of the country provided it's own blessings and challenges to every day life and since these folks weren't in the habit of feeding dogs just for the sake of benevolence, the best of the best (as it pertained to helping the family survive and thrive) were the ones that lived to breed. Over the course of time a specific "type" developed and as time moved on the traits became more ingrained in the "look" of the dogs.

All that being said, you can see many similarities in the curs from the carolinas all the way the cues of west Texas, but, when you single them out individually, you begin to see the subtle differences that suit them to the local areas they traditionally occupy.

IE;
Southern Louisiana curs retained camouflage or dark colors and more specifically, webbed feet.

Working Texas curs often yellow for heat resistance and becuase it's the color of supremacy. Lol

On and on and on...

HoosierGunNut......this is your best answer in my opinion.

Very well said T-bob.

A Cur is most definitely not a cross.  All dogs started out as mixes at one point, as did Curs, but they like other dogs have moved well past that point in their existence.  The kind of dogs from which curs originated is virtually non-documented.  Most of the internet literature you will read is not a good resource.  It is very speculative, romanticized and not plausible.  One thing is for certain Cur dogs were developed by working class people for a real working purpose.  The dogs that were the foundation of the Cur breeds were most certainly dogs which were commonly available to those that lived in the region where cur dogs developed (Texas and through the south east including Florida).  Those dogs were also dogs that had a working function in their current existence.  Herding, Hunting, Home protection. ect.  I've posted my opinions on what those dogs might have been you can search past posts if you are interested in that.  



I would like to add that a Cur is a type of dog like a hound is a type of dog.  There are different breeds of curs like their are different breeds of hounds. Black Mouth Cur, Catahoula, Florida Cur, Lacy.  But a cur is defined by function more than it is defined by form.  At its root, it is a livestock working dog, that also has strong hunting instincts.  The hunting instincts making them unique from other breeds of livestock working dogs.  The hunting instinct makes cur dogs a valuable tool in areas where livestock has thick cover to hide in.  The hunting instinct also makes Cur dogs a versatile tool for hunting other non-livestock animals.  Such as bears, cougars, raccoons ect.  As pointed out, it is the livestock working instinct that sets Curs apart from hounds.  Just like the presence of strong hunting instinct sets them apart from other livestock working breeds.  The way they hunt is also a function of the livestock aspect.  The best way to describe it is that a good Cur dog will hunt for you.  As opposed to hunting for its self.  Where as a hound may cast off in a random direction searching for the scent of its target, regardless of where his handler goes or what he does.   A cur dog will travel with its handler while searching for the scent of its target, making loops and checking back in to keep up with them.  A cur dog can be trained to hold behind a horse when working cattle, and will only begin hunting once sent by the handler.  This makes working cattle much easier because the handler chooses what pastures are worked and which cattle are gathered.  Hounds are much less receptive to this kind of training.  My cur dogs stand around the truck looking at me while I get organized for the hunt as if they are clueless to their job.  However once I set off and we get to hunting they go to work.  Good Cur dogs have an instinct to gather livestock.  Since hogs are nothing more than wild livestock it is something they bring to the hog hunting game.  They understand their job is to hold the animal at bay.  Hounds run to catch and kill and if the animal fights them off or excludes them by going up a tree they will bay.  In my opinion a Cur dog does not run to catch and kill.  They can be conditioned to catch or have other dogs bred into them which will bring along the tendency to catch but a Cur dog has its roots in livestock work and its true function is to control the animal and at the same time keep the animal alive and intact, and marketable.  Many cur dogs are naturally gentle with young livestock.  It only makes sense because you don't want your stock dogs harming the future of your industry.  It is not uncommon for well disciplined Cur dogs, used on cattle, to be put in the same trailer compartment with calves and they will not harm them.  They very frequently lay sleeping in the front section of a cattle trailer with the remained of the trailer loaded down with cattle.  Many people have seen their Cur dogs bring them live baby pigs.  Its just another aspect of their livestock working nature.

Hope that helps you understand Cur dogs.

Waylon

[HoosierGunNut]

Right on. I was just curious about that since before I looked up Hog Dogs I had never heard of that type of dog before. In retrospect I've probably seen a few up here and never noticed it.

[Reuben]

The ukc does accept the bmc

AKC???probably the beginning of the end for that breed of working dog...