HEAVY JEEP PITS

[MrsLouisianaHogDog]

When I read this post I really wanted to post as James was a good friend and I still have his blood but I couldn't have summed it up any better than RRSlim did. I have been catching with Jeep/Redboy/Rascal dogs and they work but I am getting a linebred APBT catchdog at this point because in my opinion you don't need a dead game dog to catch hogs with. Mine never did want to go straight to the ear and sooner or later it was gonna get them hurt bad. That line is not natural ear dogs. Yes I believe that with time they could probably get steered that way but I'm going with dogs that do it almost automatic. On a sidenote, I am one of the guys that don't believe Honeybunch was off Bullyson. Bill Pitre says Ironhead sired her and I tend to believe it when  how many favor him over Bullyson. But at this point it doesn't matter a lick.

I have heard that story about Honeybunch being off Ironhead as well.  What a lot of fellows don't understand is that when looking at the papers / pedigree of any gamebred APBT, there is a pretty good chance that somewhere in that pedigree, there is gonna be some lies told somewhere.         

x 2

[TexasHogDogs]

Tell me if I'm right about this fellas. Game-bred s almost more of a type of pitbull now than it is actual bloodline. For this reason...if Jeep for example was in a pedigree 30 times but jeeps been dead so many yrs now and presumably none or very few of the dogs in the pedigree since him have been fought we don't know if they were game or not half of them coulda been curs but were nvr tested.

Hard to say what I mean but I hope y'all catch my drift.

EXACTLY.  I have been preaching this for a long time.  A bloodline (or family of dogs) is only as good as the person doing the breeding and culling.  I have made the argument before and will do it again.  We will use the dog Jeep as an example since we are on the subject.  However we could use any known famous dog from any breed of working dog that carries name recognition with it.  But for now we will use Jeep.

Here goes . . . . You could take 2 different dogmen / dog breeders, and go back to say 1988 and go to James Crenshaw's place and purchase 20 puppies directly Sired by Jeep and out of females sired by Jeep.  So these 20 puppies are by Jeep bred back to his daughters.  So this is as "up close" Jeep genetics as you can get.  You give 10 puppies to one guy, and you give 10 puppies to the other guy.  The rules are as follows.  Each man must raise his 10 puppies to adulthood.  He has to school them out, train them, select which ones are good and which ones aren't.  He has to decide which ones are good enough to be bred and which ones aren't.  He must breed them ONLY to each other for 7 years.  He is allowed every 7 years to breed outside his own program to make an outcross.  However, once he has made the outcross, he must breed back ONLY to the dogs on his yard that he has selected and culled from (that originally came from and go back to the initial Jeep puppies).  So after following these rules from 1988 to 2013, you would have two different breeders with 25 years of heavy Jeep genetics in their programs, with only 3 outcrosses so far.  Now ON PAPER, both sets of dogs are about as inbred Jeep as you can find.  Both sets of dogs are gonna have basically the same percentage of Jeep blood.  However, it is possible that these two separate sets of dogs could be as different as night and day.  One group could be FAR SUPERIOR to the other group.  They may even look different.  What people don't understand is that you can't inbreed FOREVER.  You have to go outside the blood at some point and make an outcross, or the dogs are gonna start breaking down (structurally, performance, mental, fertility, health, strength, etc, etc).  So while both of these groups are real heavy bred Jeep, it kinda depends on which dogs were used as outcrosses along the way as to which group will be better.  Also, maybe one guy culls harder than the other guy.  Maybe one guy makes excuses for poor performance.  Maybe one guy can't cull a dog, so he gives it away . . and the other guy is looking for a reason to cull because feed aint cheap.  Maybe one guy is testing his dogs and putting his reputation and money on the line, and the other guy is just breeding puppies.    

Now on top of all this, AD IN THIS MONKEY WRENCH . . . Either man can sell all the puppies he wants to during this 25 year period.

So the moral of the story is . . . What exactly is a Jeep dog?  One man's Jeep dog could be total garbage, and the next man's Jeep dog could be a superstar.

A bloodline is ONLY as good as the individual man who buys their feed.          

      

That's a very good post Red.    My money is on the man that is breeding and using his on dogs in the stiffest competition available using on money, blood , sweat and tears  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Yes people do not understand that the family breeding is all fine and dandy but the cross you choose to breed it into is what is going to make them family dogs famous!!!!!!!!!!!!  Are chunk'em in the chit can !

[TexasHogDogs]

When I read this post I really wanted to post as James was a good friend and I still have his blood but I couldn't have summed it up any better than RRSlim did. I have been catching with Jeep/Redboy/Rascal dogs and they work but I am getting a linebred APBT catchdog at this point because in my opinion you don't need a dead game dog to catch hogs with. Mine never did want to go straight to the ear and sooner or later it was gonna get them hurt bad. That line is not natural ear dogs. Yes I believe that with time they could probably get steered that way but I'm going with dogs that do it almost automatic. On a sidenote, I am one of the guys that don't believe Honeybunch was off Bullyson. Bill Pitre says Ironhead sired her and I tend to believe it when  how many favor him over Bullyson. But at this point it doesn't matter a lick.

WWW  am right there with you!  I don't no believe Honeybunch was off of Bullyson never have   !

[TexasHogDogs]

Easttex91

Its not the pedigree that matters its the man that has been breeding them.  I have seen dogs stacked on top of dogs on top of dogs and then some more .  They were suppose to be the tightest this are the tightest purest this and what they amounted to was a big pile of horse dung !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now at the same time I have seen dogs that were bred with the same dog in mind that the dummies stacked and stacked and stacked but this man knew how to breed dogs new how to handle dogs knew how to work dogs knew what he was looking at and he did not stack the dogs like the dummies but just worked , weaved and used the said dog and his whole damn yard was great representation of the said dog in performace and looks !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

After a said dog has earned his degree in what ever then and I say it again and THEN it is the man that breeds them that makes all the difference in the world as to weather they are World Champions are just stacked and pack Horse Dung !

[redriverslim]

Can I get A'men on that brother

[Reuben]

Easttex91

Its not the pedigree that matters its the man that has been breeding them.  I have seen dogs stacked on top of dogs on top of dogs and then some more .  They were suppose to be the tightest this are the tightest purest this and what they amounted to was a big pile of horse dung !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now at the same time I have seen dogs that were bred with the same dog in mind that the dummies stacked and stacked and stacked but this man knew how to breed dogs new how to handle dogs knew how to work dogs knew what he was looking at and he did not stack the dogs like the dummies but just worked , weaved and used the said dog and his whole damn yard was great representation of the said dog in performace and looks !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

After a said dog has earned his degree in what ever then and I say it again and THEN it is the man that breeds them that makes all the difference in the world as to weather they are World Champions are just stacked and pack Horse Dung !

x2...sounds easy but it takes time and money...and lots of dedication and a genuine love for breeding the best of the best...some of the issues I perceive as breeding problems are that folks don't "see" a great dog when they are looking at one...and another mistake is out-crossing way to much and too often...when you have a good line of dogs going it should take days and even months on deciding who breeds to what...

[TexasHogDogs]

x2...sounds easy but it takes time and money...and lots of dedication and a genuine love for breeding the best of the best...some of the issues I perceive as breeding problems are that folks don't "see" a great dog when they are looking at one...and another mistake is out-crossing way to much and too often...when you have a good line of dogs going it should take days and even months on deciding who breeds to what...

Great post Rueben.

That's the problem unless a person's full heart is into it and his ever waking moment is thinking about what comes next then he is not a true breeder of dogs .  I was like that at one time but Am not like that so much anymore.  Why because it just cost way to much money , to many headaches , to many asses to deal with and it is just all time consuming .  Now a day 60 hour a week jobs and you still have not got enuff money for you and your family to live comfortable on .  30 $ bags of dog food its just unreal !  You have to have land and a set up and you have to have access to great dogs and most of all have to be very active in the sport you are breeding dogs for.  This does not mean hunting dogs once a week are three times a month that's a laugh .  We all know that ground and pound in the woods many times is the only thing that is going to make the dogs.    I breed a few dogs now but even with ten , twelve years of messing with this line of dogs I got that is just the baby stages of running a straight line of dogs you just now earning your huggies .  Ten , fifteen years is noting its just getting started the baby stages .  No its not till a man hits the 20 year mark with a same line of dogs that he is just beginning to hit the fruit of his hard work and when the line is becoming the line he foreseen.

Breeding a couple of liters does not make no one a breeder of great dogs , you may have some great dogs come out of the liter but the reason they are great is because of the men that bred the line and before you, this does not mean your gut feeling for breeding is for noting sure it helps but  no your stamp does not start to appear until ten , fifteen years and if you ain't careful you will never have a stamp on a dog muchless a line of great dogs .     

[Amokabs]

Great thread. It takes a special person to achieve the type of success mentioed in these posts. The main quality needed as i see it , is patience, a quality that is sorely missing in today's  "gotta have it now" society. Breeder's should have an idea of 20 yrs down the road outlook.  Cant suffer from kennel blindness, nor be reluctant to cull. And last, gotta have the eye and heart of a dogman. Some folks, no matter how much time and $$ they throw into it, just dont have that "something special" that it takes to put the right dogs together.

[WayOutWest]

Amokabs, you said a mouthful when you said "an eye and a heart for the dogs". I lost a friend last year that had it. When we sat and watched dogs he saw something different than everyone else. He would say what was gonna happen next and be danged if it didn't happen. Those men are rare and if you find one stick close to him cause you might learn something.