Papers!! Papers!!! Papers!!!!

[mike rogers]

To a lot of folks papers don't mean anything if much at all. Some times I wonder if it's even worth the trouble myself.  I often wonder this... unless you know the breeder and you have complete confidence in their breeding program do you really know what your getting???  There are folks that put  false papers on dogs everyday just for the $$$.  You can really be surprised when you breed a "pure bred" gyp to a "pure bred" male and get two or three pups that don't belong.  To go even further than that some registries will do nothing about it.  The best advise I can give is to call, visit and do a little research. See what they got and get what you want. At the end of the day the papers aint gonna tree no coon or bay no hog.

[oconee]

I used to do a lot of duck and goose hunting and sure wanted a top notch labrador to train.  I went through I don't know how many labs I got from 'proven hunting' stock out of the San Antonio Express News Classifieds.  Some were papered, some weren't.  But none of them made the grade.  I was taking all of them to a professional retreiver training to train.  After I don't know how many culls he finally had the courage to ask me, "If you your goal was to buy a horse so you could win the Kentucky Derby, would you start by looking in the news paper?"   
With his help, we found a well bred female in Oklahoma City.  The owner had her flown to Lyons, Michigan and bred her to a top male.  Both dogs were from proven pedigrees and proven stock.  I paid him in advance, $600.  I drove to Oklahoma City to pick her and so began our journey.  That female was worth every penny, going on to win in hunt trials and never embarassing me in front of friends, family, or professional guides where ever we hunted.  Many a guide warned me when I showed up with her, "if she ruins my hunt, it's on you!"  Every one of those guides offered to buy her before the hunt was over.
So knock papers all ya want, they there is a place for them and for people that want to know what they are are getting.
Many of you know of my Boo dog that I got from Chris & Brandee 12 years ago.  Half Plott, half Mt Cur.  A top notch strike dog that has been hunted in just about every environment in Texas, from the panhandle, the big thicket, the rice patties of El Campo, the pines of Tyler area, and the cactus of south Texas.  I never bred her and many have asked why not.  My question was always the same.  Breed her to what?  She's already a half breed.  Breeding her to anything is a crap shoot, a wild gamble at best.  And this world is full of pups from those failed attempts to create the next best dog.
I decided to pass and stick to full blood dogs.  Did I do it because papered dogs hunt better?  Nope, just that I figured if wanted to breed my own dogs, I'd go with a proven line and start with a solid recipe.   
Hog doggers seem to be the only, or at least the leaders of the pack, dog men that love to mix and match when it comes to dogs.  Duck hunters don't cross their labs with another breed to improve their retriever ability.  Men that work stock don't keep breeding their blue healers to other dogs to make them better herders.  Quail hunters don't cross their pointers to make better bird dogs, nor do ropers breed their quarter horses to other breds to make them head and heel better?
But when it comes to hog dogs, burn the papers, muddy the water, and hope for the best.
To each their own, and I wish them the best.  But for every $50 dollar dog I've culled, I could have bought fewer papered dogs and probably been way ahead of the game.  I know, for me at least, I am culling way less and having far better results.  But that's just me and my potlickers.

Quite possible the best reading on this forum!!!!!!!   Cross-breeding everything in the world is nothing more than a half-hearted attempt to shortcut your to the dog of your dreams.   

[Reuben]

I used to do a lot of duck and goose hunting and sure wanted a top notch labrador to train.  I went through I don't know how many labs I got from 'proven hunting' stock out of the San Antonio Express News Classifieds.  Some were papered, some weren't.  But none of them made the grade.  I was taking all of them to a professional retreiver training to train.  After I don't know how many culls he finally had the courage to ask me, "If you your goal was to buy a horse so you could win the Kentucky Derby, would you start by looking in the news paper?"   
With his help, we found a well bred female in Oklahoma City.  The owner had her flown to Lyons, Michigan and bred her to a top male.  Both dogs were from proven pedigrees and proven stock.  I paid him in advance, $600.  I drove to Oklahoma City to pick her and so began our journey.  That female was worth every penny, going on to win in hunt trials and never embarassing me in front of friends, family, or professional guides where ever we hunted.  Many a guide warned me when I showed up with her, "if she ruins my hunt, it's on you!"  Every one of those guides offered to buy her before the hunt was over.
So knock papers all ya want, they there is a place for them and for people that want to know what they are are getting.
Many of you know of my Boo dog that I got from Chris & Brandee 12 years ago.  Half Plott, half Mt Cur.  A top notch strike dog that has been hunted in just about every environment in Texas, from the panhandle, the big thicket, the rice patties of El Campo, the pines of Tyler area, and the cactus of south Texas.  I never bred her and many have asked why not.  My question was always the same.  Breed her to what?  She's already a half breed.  Breeding her to anything is a crap shoot, a wild gamble at best.  And this world is full of pups from those failed attempts to create the next best dog.
I decided to pass and stick to full blood dogs.  Did I do it because papered dogs hunt better?  Nope, just that I figured if wanted to breed my own dogs, I'd go with a proven line and start with a solid recipe.   
Hog doggers seem to be the only, or at least the leaders of the pack, dog men that love to mix and match when it comes to dogs.  Duck hunters don't cross their labs with another breed to improve their retriever ability.  Men that work stock don't keep breeding their blue healers to other dogs to make them better herders.  Quail hunters don't cross their pointers to make better bird dogs, nor do ropers breed their quarter horses to other breds to make them head and heel better?
But when it comes to hog dogs, burn the papers, muddy the water, and hope for the best.
To each their own, and I wish them the best.  But for every $50 dollar dog I've culled, I could have bought fewer papered dogs and probably been way ahead of the game.  I know, for me at least, I am culling way less and having far better results.  But that's just me and my potlickers.

Quite possible the best reading on this forum!!!!!!!   Cross-breeding everything in the world is nothing more than a half-hearted attempt to shortcut your to the dog of your dreams.   

there is no doubt about what DSmith has said is 100 percent right...to get a great duck dog one needs to look for the great breeders of these dogs...folks that are down right serious about the water retriever that lives and breathes it...the breeder that produces great dogs that are known to be hunters and field trialers...those guys advertise in magazines like Ducks Unlimited etc...etc...breeders are like any other profession...you have a few below average, and the majority average, then you have the above average and the few that are the elites...but even the average breeder is better than looking in the newspaper want ads unless the dogs in that advertisement come directly from that great breeder...

and DSmith is right about all the outcrossing going on...that will produce a few good dogs but mostly not...but one thing about hog hunting is this...you can line breed and inbreed a strain of hog dogs and those hogs will adapt to it...there is a way to outcross to improve on a strain by outcrossing but it should be done very sparingly...and very seldom and with the right dog...

another thing is that there are many styles of hog hunting that will require a different type of dog...

then you have to take into consideration the size of the land that is being hunted...and that requires one to consider the type of dog needed to hunt that area...I better quit bringing up these obstacles or I might want to quit hog hunting forever... 

[boogie]

I agree to a point, but have to wonder how much people would like there fullblood dogs with out all the crossing that made them the breeds they r today

[charles]

If u want paperd/reg dogs, buy them. If u dont want them, dont buy them, but dont bust other peoples ba!!s for doing it, or say its for bragging rights or some of the other stupid crap. U either want them or u dont n bryant shot a bulls eye when he said "if ur breeding n not writting it down, ur spinning ur wheels". Nobody is hold a gun to ur head n making u buy a dog/s that are papered/reg, so why hate or be jelioys of those that do hav/buy them, is it an inferiority complex or something? Kinda like the short man syndrome or the small twig syndrome n have to adjust their small life style with the bigger better world around them

[uglydog]

Papers are tools. the tools to keep a record of lineage. I have a record of all my "unregistered dogs for many generations, as far as could be traced as well as many other peoples dogs in order to know the information of what may show up in my dogs, health, temperament and most of all WORK ETHIC for HUNTING (bottom, drive, stay, focus) if they are related. I have all this information and I share with others, vice versa. However if My house burns down I have lost over decade of record keeping. In this day and time pretty Sad at how many people don't consider how important the past is to Our here and now. Hunting dogs are part of Our heritage, Stock working dogs are part of Our heritage, breeds such as the Catahoula may not be the most popular but have a long history side beside with Humans and settling this country.
Many people who never shared hand written records, or placed them in a registery have lost those dogs history, bloodlines and heritage Forever. I find incredible SAD, I have tracked some of dogs I work with now back to some very rough and savory characters with very interesting history. Thank GOD, some where wise enough to let these dogs lineage to be recorded and saved for someone like me so to look up up and find these peoples lives and their dogs so damn interesting. They found their dogs were tools like I think of these papers but they did not have time to discuss and dream about it as their where too busy trying to cut out a living for themselves

[halfbreed]

  best reply yet !!!!!   and there ya go folks . 

[Txmason]

I have papers and keep records of where my dogs came from and that is just for me, if a person comes and gets one what he does with papers is ok with me but I know what he got and where it came from. 
Krystal with Uglydog has always keep good recordas with her uglydogs and a very smart lady, but most young hands know more after 6 months that most of us old timers do any way.

[TexasHogDogs]

Papers are tools. the tools to keep a record of lineage. I have a record of all my "unregistered dogs for many generations, as far as could be traced as well as many other peoples dogs in order to know the information of what may show up in my dogs, health, temperament and most of all WORK ETHIC for HUNTING (bottom, drive, stay, focus) if they are related. I have all this information and I share with others, vice versa. However if My house burns down I have lost over decade of record keeping. In this day and time pretty Sad at how many people don't consider how important the past is to Our here and now. Hunting dogs are part of Our heritage, Stock working dogs are part of Our heritage, breeds such as the Catahoula may not be the most popular but have a long history side beside with Humans and settling this country.
Many people who never shared hand written records, or placed them in a registery have lost those dogs history, bloodlines and heritage Forever. I find incredible SAD, I have tracked some of dogs I work with now back to some very rough and savory characters with very interesting history. Thank GOD, some where wise enough to let these dogs lineage to be recorded and saved for someone like me so to look up up and find these peoples lives and their dogs so damn interesting. They found their dogs were tools like I think of these papers but they did not have time to discuss and dream about it as their where too busy trying to cut out a living for themselves

Yes mam,  I been preaching that for years and years.  Papers are just a road map to were you want to go with your dogs and it is a road map to look back and see were they have been threw all the years.

[justincorbell]

I have papers and keep records of where my dogs came from and that is just for me, if a person comes and gets one what he does with papers is ok with me but I know what he got and where it came from. 
Krystal with Uglydog has always keep good recordas with her uglydogs and a very smart lady, but most young hands THINK YOU know more after 6 months that most of us old timers do any way.

Hope you don't mind Mr. Mason but I edited your post a hair. Ive been hunting quite a while now and im younger (26) but believe i know im not speaking for just myself when I say that there are quite a few younger guys on here who still know when to shut up and listen when you "old timers" speak! People like yourself are the reason i come back to this site.

[charles]

Papers are tools. the tools to keep a record of lineage. I have a record of all my "unregistered dogs for many generations, as far as could be traced as well as many other peoples dogs in order to know the information of what may show up in my dogs, health, temperament and most of all WORK ETHIC for HUNTING (bottom, drive, stay, focus) if they are related. 

Yes mam,  I been preaching that for years and years.  Papers are just a road map to were you want to go with your dogs and it is a road map to look back and see were they have been threw all the years.

that aint what u said here below. sounds like u contradicted ur self
 

You don't need papers to have a pedigree.

DON'T YALL KNOW ?

BRAGGIN RIGHTS BABY , BRAGGIN RIGHTS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THATS ALL IT IS AND TO SAY I GOT THE TIGHTEST MONKEY PUNK BRED DOG AROUND !

[AnthonyB]

Papers are a matter of preference, if someone wants them or not is completely up them as is what they are willing to spend. Papers, hand written or registered, when used properly are a way to keep track of breedings, bloodlines, and crosses. As for the increase in price of a registered dog, that is up to the breeder and what they think they are worth, and up to the buyer and what they are willing to spend. For example, I bred one of the crosses that have been working really really well for me and my style of hunting. The few pups out of that litter that will be for sale will be at $1,000. That's my price. May not be acceptable to all, but hey, everyone doesn't own the litter, I do. If someone wants one of the pups that's great, if they don't like them, don't wanna spend that much, or don't want papers I could care less, not gonna hurt my feelings and I hope they find what they are looking for. In the end it's up to what a person buying a dog wants and what a person breeding a dog is willing to sell it for, why cry about papers your not breeding, dogs your not raising, and money your not spending?
Anthony

[t-dog]

Uglydog and Mr. Mason both expressed how I feel about it pretty good. I would like to add though that so many of these dogs that so many of us call pure breeds started as "crosses". In our hog hunting world there are several. The Plotts, originated by the Plott family, the Catahoula, the Dogo, etc. etc. Selective line breeding and inbreeding was done and hand written records were keep by these folks for generations and as the popularity grew and more people took interest, registries were formed to better organize and keep track of the animals. The AQHA has crosses in their registries between traditional quarter horses and thorobreds. It's a cross and it's on record. Because of the papers, you can look and see right off that this animal probably is or isn't bred for the discipline your gonna use the animal for. I myself I don't have a problem paying a little more for someone keeping track of the dogs history. You naturally, as rule, are gonna pay more the dogs out of the most popular or in demand bloodlines. Do people slap false papers on animals? Sure they do. Know the people your getting the animal from, be it from references, personal experience or whatever method. Do I think people get carried away with the prices on the "papered" dogs because they are papered, a lot of times I do. Are they good because of the papers or the lineage behind them? I guess I'm saying I don't mind at all paying for the past in this circumstance and that if I can have it down on pen and paper it just makes things that much easier for me.

[chainrated]

If you like papers there is nothin wrong with that. You can believe about 40% of what is written on them..
Most of the dogs I've bred and raised here for the last 10 years could be registered with a registry but I have "official" registered papers on none of them.. But I do know and have written down exactly how they are all bred because I saw it with my own eyes. If you don't see it then you can believe about 40% of what is on your dog's papers at the most.. If people knew what was actually  bred into their registered dogs there would be a lot of hurt feelings..

[aussie black mouth curs]

As the only BMC breeders in Australia papers are important for us in keeping track of our dogs; their breedings and performance.  But performance comes first and second.  Most of the the people who buy our pups are not concerned about the papers, but we send them out anyway.  There's a couple of points that I'd like to make -

1.  The hardest thing about breeding good pups is finding good owners, setting a high price for our pups does mean that we get committed owners for the most part

2.  The best thing about the internet is that everyones opinion is equal. The worst thing about the internet is that everyones opinion is equal....

Troy

[Reuben]

at one time I registered my dogs and sometimes sold pups and put a price on them because of the papers...then I switched to hunting dogs with papers and it didn't take long for me to quit registering the dogs because of the high prices to register...I started filing the papers and pedigrees and for quite a few generations I raised hunting dogs that I just put a few notes down and every dog bred was a top hunting dog as what I thought a great dog was and never deviated from that...

but why is there so many culls in some of these registered dogs???one reason is that when someone pays top dollar for a registered pup from the latest and greatest bloodline that is the latest fad at the time...will have to breed for the money and won't care less if the dog hunts...others hunt the dog and the dog is not really good enough but the dog gets bred anyway...others think they have a good hunting dog but they really don't have a high standard in what a good hunting dog is...

but there are good breeders out there that produce good dogs on a regular basis and know what a good dog is...

I once went to a kennel where the owner hunted his dogs hard and produced good to great hunting dogs but his idea of what the dogs should look like were totally different than mine...at least for that particular breed and strain...he liked his dogs short and stocky and I liked them taller and leggier...a medium athletic build...he had a top female that was given to him and he just gave her to be with the papers...he didn't like the looks of her and she was everything I thought a cur dog should look like in that breed...the other 30 dogs in his kennel I wouldn't have kept...

there are so many variations in what people like and in their working standards that one must do their homework before buying...sometimes one has to breed their own line to be happy with the outcome...whether it be with papers or not...

[dodgegirl]

The only dogs I prefer to have papers on is our dogos. Now it ain't for the money, it's just the fact that I like to be able to see the lineage. I had a lady awhile back want to breed her gyp to one of my dogs. I asked her to send me a picture of the dog and the pedigree. She told me the dogs sire was "funes de la cocha". But she refused to send me a picture of her dogs pedigree..... I wonder why? I figured she had lied about the sire. Needles to say I declined to breed my dog to hers. It seems like everyone moans and groans about people having papers, but those who like papers never complain about y'all who don't like em. To each there own my friends.

[jdt]

the bottom line is .......





     the best papers are the ones an old man wrights out on a scrap and has to scratch his head a few times while doing it 

[BIG BEN]

John you nailed it!!

Sent from my SCH-S738C using Tapatalk

[AW]

I've seen good dogs from hand written paper and printed and stamped paper and no one knows where it came from it all just depends on what a man wants to feed.