Natural Bobtails in YBMC ????

[YELLOWBLACKMASK]

Perty sure this is gonna start a landslide.....but truly an honest question that has eluded me on a knowledgeable answer.

Where did the natural bobtail trait come from in these main line bred YBMC that are being mass marketed?

Truly wanting a knowledgeable answer with some history research to back the response.

Granted I am explicitly familiar of the Cur dog trait being composed of numerous breeds.  But without the exposure to a Kemmer or Mountain cur breed........haven't been able to justify.

What's ya thoughts gents? 

Again not a hate post...looking for a feasible answer that actually chalks up to where my suspicions lead my curiosity.

Enjoy

[charles]

Myles, how bout this, not sure if its true, but i figure it would b a good place start. Like u said, the "original" curs were bred from who knows or cross bred to neighboring ranch curs. But what ever the make up is, i think the bobtail genes hav been isolated for specific breeding traits. That hidden gene poped up randomly in the past, those that liked the looks/confirmation of the bobtail would get/hang on to the pup, search around to find another bob of opposite sex n breed them. 2 naturals bred together hav a greater chance of throwing more bobtails. Then comes the line breeding n throwin a bob in from another unrelated litter n continuing the cycle till the bobtail trait is dominant in the breeding program. I hope my comment didnt come off as a smart ass, if so, it was 100% NOT what i was tryin to accomplish.

I bred my tailed male over to my short tailed (3-4") bitch and out of 7, only 1 had a short tail. I didnt mark him, but i think he went to mavrik10 on here, but as far as the few pups born on my yard, they all get bobbed at 3-4 days old. For me, personal prefrence. Iv owned 1 true bobtail n i have this current short tail.
I did though breed 2 tailed yellers n got 1 bobtail and a couple short tails in the litter. I dont think i kept a short tail, i could hav, but i picked the 2 that i wanted n let the others go.

[YELLOWBLACKMASK]

Yes Charles your point makes perfect since.

But I am wanting to know if someone knows specifically the dog or breed of dog that started this gene in some lines of YBMC.

I keep looking towards the mountains for answers .........am I crazy?

[charles]

 naw, I wouldn't think its a crazy thought of the mountain or kemmer cur to be involved in the manufacturing of the yeller bmcs. but if mnt curs were used, wouldn't at some point in the generations of breeding, brindle bmcs would arise from the depths of the gene pool?

this topic I would think would go back a similar topic a while back, asking what dogs made up the bmc line. nobody could seem to answer the ? of, what dogs made up the bmc, with any 100% certainty.

 during the westward expansion, im sure ranch dogs were mixed and bred with numerous "breeds" of dogs along the trip, and during these breedings, possibly before there was a true name given to any 1 type of breed a bobtail dog was used or got ahold of their dogs and 2 months later, that gene was in the "bmc" line of dogs.
im sure you have ran across this link and if so, sry for posting it.
 http://www.blackmouthcur.com/History.htm
I can NOT find ANY info other than the link I posted, to truly say what dogs made up the modern yeller cur, which still leaves the bobtail gene origin honestly unanswered.
I do know that some registry owners will take any ole' "cur as they call it" and throw it in their breeding pool just on ther dogs looks and or performance and now that dog is a bmc, yet other registries will register the dog/s IF you can provide a 6+ generation breeding linage of the potential bmc candidate along with pics of the linage and some form of documentation as proof of the generational breedings

I to would like to know, but with so many of the antique old timers passed away along with their knowledge, its gonna be near impossible to pin point the exact dog/s used to the throw the bobtail trait, EXCEPT for modern medical science and a DNA profile of the dog breeds.

[YELLOWBLACKMASK]

Think there should be a specific cross well inside this generation that explains it. 

Not all YBMC lines produce natural bobtails.  Just cannot put my finger on the specific cross that does.

[charles]

 did u get a bobtail pup out 1 of ur litters or a litter from a friend that yaw swap dogs with?

as far as registries go. I know the foundation registered dogs throw them, the black mouth cur breeder (used to be the southern bmcba) will NOT register any natural bobtail, and the dogs registered within that registry have to have some kind of distinctive tail and if a bob is thrown, it can not be registered. the former abmc (American black mouth cur) registry im not sure of 100% but I don't think they allowed bobs in there either. until I got some of the foundation dogs, none of my southern dogs had or threw bobs. not saying that other litters from other folks who dealt with the southern didn't throw bobs, especially since a good portion of those dogs had some of the exact same blood as those foundation dogs.   

but back to the OP, im with you, leaning to the mnt cur or kemmer cur thrown into the wood pile somewhere down the road. what steers me more towards the kemmer, is the lack of brindle/merle coloring/patterns being thrown, along with the bobtails.
but if it is either the mnt or kemmer, then the next ? arises. what dogs were mixed to get those particular breeds and which of those dog/s had a bobtail.

[OWL Black Mouth Curs]

the bob tail trait is dominate. it takes one to get one. just follow the bob tail dog's lineage back on the bob tail side as far as it goes, and you will have the answer.

[OWL Black Mouth Curs]

the foundation isn't the only source of bobtails, they come in some of the unregistered families too.

[charles]

I was speakin as to registries, thats why i stated,"as far as registries go". Yes, u r right, they can pop up in any breed or as u stated family of dog. And as for dominance "having have 1 to get 1", there are exceptions to everything. in a crossing of 2 of my full tailed dogs, i got a less than half tail, but not a complete bobtail in the litter. Several breedings before that, my fm n another full tailed maled threw a complete bobtail. Im not tryn to pick an argument, just stating what iv witnessed personaly.

[OWL Black Mouth Curs]

the sire or the dam wasn't a completely full tail. it may have been missing as few as one or two vertebrae at the end of it's tail.

[charles]

 I didn't xray and count the vertebrates, so yes, either 1 could have been missing 1 or 2 or 3, but so could many other breeds that are defined as full/standard tails. how many S vertebrates are all dogs suppose to have?

[YELLOWBLACKMASK]

did u get a bobtail pup out 1 of ur litters or a litter from a friend that yaw swap dogs with?

Haha....nah brotha. Been raising these almost my whole life and never even saw a bobtail on a Yeller dog till the invention of the net.

Traits typically spawn from one particular cross....dog...or event that can be narrowed down by someone somewhere.
Didn't say I was a fan....but not gonna hold it against others if it pleases them.

But the curiosity aspect of it is what intrigues me to ask.

[charles]

Ahhh, ok. Just figured a bobtail got stuck in the woodpile n it just now rose from the ashes 
It dont bother me either way, but i cant stand box barkin or tails thumpin the box or thrashin all around, so they loose them things asap.

[hillbilly]

Saw a lot in the ladner line.

[OWL Black Mouth Curs]

you will have to go off the back end of the papers on the foundation dogs to find out the true origin of the bobtails in that registry. the rio concho dog was bobtailed, and he was supposedly unrelated. he has a three gen. background with the foundation and was used as an outcross to the ben breeding. so its going to come through on more than one source. it just takes tracing it back further than what is recorded in the registry.
beaver's crook was another original source of the bobtails. i'm sure there were others. ben jordan has kept and bred from bobtails. the people wright received and bred dogs from are the people you should talk to if you really want to know...

[charles]

Concho wasnt a full bobtail. He had around a 3-4" tail. I used him for outcross n he threw 2 short tails out of 11 pups.

[OWL Black Mouth Curs]

half tail, bob tail, 3/4 tail, 7/8 tail.

it's all the same gene. natural bobtail refers to anything shorter than a fully developed tail.

[charles]

 hey myles, I did a lil lookin and found this. u mite hav seen it too, I don't know, but here is a lil of what I found.
as stated, out of the 23 dogs studied, which there r way more than 23, but maybe 1 of these breeds helped produce the bmc line many, many yrs ago.
A mutation in a gene called the T-box transcription factor T gene (C189G) accounts for natural bobtails in 17 of 23 dog breeds studied, but not in another 6 dog breeds, for which the genetic mechanism is yet to be determined.[2]

Natural bobtail dog breeds with C189G mutation:
Australian Shepherd
Austrian Pinscher
Australian Stumpy Tail Cattle Dog
Braque du Bourbonnais
Brazilian Terrier
Brittany Spaniel
Croatian Sheepdog
Danish Swedish Farmdog
Jack Russell Terrier
Karelian Bear Dog
Mudi
Polish Lowland Sheepdog
Pyrenean Shepherd
Rottweiler
Braque Francais aka Savoy Sheepdog
Schipperke
Spanish Water Dog
Swedish Vallhund
Pembroke Welsh Corgi

Natural bobtail dog breeds without C189G mutation:
Boston Terrier
English Bulldog
King Charles Spaniel
Miniature Schnauzer
Parson Russell Terrier

Dog breeds into which the C189G mutation has been introduced by cross-breeding:
Boxer

[jdt]

i'm told it comes from the beavers crook dog , i've seen when dogs are bred real tight - he will show his tail , or lack of one lol

[OWL Black Mouth Curs]

a couple more that contributed the bobtail gene to the foundation dogs.  there may be more, but i can't think of them off hand.

wright's cow camp was a natural bob tail. he was a sims male over an easter female, no ben breeding.
gay's sonny was a natural bob tail, he was william's ben bred to gay's henrietta, no ben breeding.