Natural Bobtails in YBMC ????

[The Old Man]

Williams Ben was a grandson to the Crook dog. The Weatherfords Ben dod did not carry bob tails in "his" lineage. W Ben was out of Henry and Bonnie, Henry was given to Ben Jordan by Ricky Driver and he was out of Leroy and Liz, Bonnie was a red gyp that was from Phil Lynes and owned by Mike Baumen, I have read where she was several differrent things but she was from Phil Lynes and neither of them had any bobtails in their lineage, that all came from other lines. I am not really up on the foundation dogs but do know the Ben side of them.

[The Old Man]

I made a typo Weatherfords Ben was out of Baumens Ben and Bonnie.

[charles]

Here is are the 2 dogs i bred n got a short tail out of. If it didnt come from the ben side which my dam was out of, then it had to come from the sire but i cant find a short or bobtail in his lineage.

Dam:


Sire:



2 burning, 6 turning

[The Old Man]

Those papers are incorrect, they show Baumens Ben to be out of Henry and Beavers Daly, when in fact Baumens Ben is out of a female that was owned by the Johnson's and named ugly, she had been pawed in the head and her skull was caved in. Baumens Ben was a stud fee pup from Johnsons to Ben Jordan and sold to Mike Baumen. They also show Bonnie to be from Bo Nutting which is incorrect. That is the only ones listed that I know.

[OWL Black Mouth Curs]

charles, i suspect the burkhart's vk female of being a bobtail.

i can't say wether she was or wether cowboy was, but she has had bobtailed offspring, i just don't know if they were natural or docked.

[YELLOWBLACKMASK]

Well that makes the second time the Crook dogs name has came up as a possible source beginning.

So let's magnify in specifically on him.

What timeframe was this dog around?........who bred him originally?  And what was his background?

[OWL Black Mouth Curs]

Williams Ben was a grandson to the Crook dog. The Weatherfords Ben dod did not carry bob tails in "his" lineage. W Ben was out of Henry and Bonnie, Henry was given to Ben Jordan by Ricky Driver and he was out of Leroy and Liz, Bonnie was a red gyp that was from Phil Lynes and owned by Mike Baumen, I have read where she was several differrent things but she was from Phil Lynes and neither of them had any bobtails in their lineage, that all came from other lines. I am not really up on the foundation dogs but do know the Ben side of them.

thanks for that bit of info on william's ben.

would you post or private message his pedigree info?
i'd be interested to write down what you know of it.
thanks again.

[The Old Man]

Williams Ben was out of Henry and Bell, Bell was out of Henry's paternal aunt named Ginny and Crook.

[charles]

Those papers are incorrect, they show Baumens Ben to be out of Henry and Beavers Daly, when in fact Baumens Ben is out of a female that was owned by the Johnson's and named ugly, she had been pawed in the head and her skull was caved in. Baumens Ben was a stud fee pup from Johnsons to Ben Jordan and sold to Mike Baumen. They also show Bonnie to be from Bo Nutting which is incorrect. That is the only ones listed that I know.

I can only go by what them papers say and if they are incorrect, they came from the foundation incorrect. iv got a copy of the her foundation papers somewhere on 1 of my computers or external hard drives and the southern papers reflect the exact same linage as the foundation papers. I can only go off what im provided with and there are 1 of 2 possibilities as to why the papers are incorrect. 1. accidental human entering error, or 2. a straight up bald face lie.

[The Old Man]

Don't mean to cause any hate or discontent but the dogs and people I have mentioned I know or knew personally, as to why the papers are incorrect I have no answer.

[bigo]

The Old Man is dead on on  the pedigree. The Crook Dog was owned by the Beavers when he was bred to Ginny and All who had that blood culled it or bred away from it. He must have been a powerfull stud dog to be responsible for all those bob tails and very seldom, if ever shows up on a pedigree. Mr. Sewell, Burkhart, Sims or Mr. Gay did not keep or breed tailess dogs.

[OWL Black Mouth Curs]

i agree with this...

i always questioned the beaver's crook dog to a big degree, as i have never traced any pedigreed dogs to him.
however, now that i know he is the grandsire to gay's sonny, it clears a little bit of it up.
gay's sonny was bobtailed and many papered dog's can be traced to him.  there are still bobtailed dogs that do not trace to him to my knowledge. which does not mean that they don't some where off the back end of those papers...

[YELLOWBLACKMASK]

Thanks for chiming in Bob.

Guess my next question would be.....did the Crook dog just happen to be born without a tail that accidentally turn into a genetic trait.....or did he have natural bobs in his background from unknown origins?

[The Old Man]

It wasn't just Williams Ben and Gays Sonny that went to Crook. There were also some Crook females purchased from JE Beavers that went to Texas.

[YELLOWBLACKMASK]

So were all these dogs from that source producing natural bobtails as an aready established trait?

[The Old Man]

I would take a guess that a huge percentage of bobtailed BMC's trace to Crook and folks just didn't know it or the papers don't show it. I do not consider bobtails to be a BMC trait, not to take away from Crook as he was a really good dog and produced some real good dogs, in fact one of my favorites was a grandson,  a littermate to Williams Ben. I never bred him though.

[rdjustham]

Ok im gonna throw this out there.  I am in no way trying to start an argument, discussion and LORD knows we don't need another Fl cur thread.  

But here goes;

I have never met the man alive that knows what makes up these south Florida cow dogs, however I do notice a real similarity between my mutts and some of the BMCs on here.  That being said we get a lot of bob tailed dogs out of mine and dogs like mine.  My guess is theres some old bulldog blood in the wood pile, which would explain why they are rough like they are.

Is it not possible theres some in yalls dogs too?  I know yall have a registry to keep track of genes etc. and we don't have anything like that, we just go off of memory and what one man passes down to the younger generation, but does anyone truly know what went into BMCs to "create" them?

[jdt]

here we go !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[YELLOWBLACKMASK]

I would take a guess that a huge percentage of bobtailed BMC's trace to Crook and folks just didn't know it or the papers don't show it. I do not consider bobtails to be a BMC trait, not to take away from Crook as he was a really good dog and produced some real good dogs, in fact one of my favorites was a grandson,  a littermate to Williams Ben. I never bred him though.

Have you seen the parents to this crook dog? Or does it go back to far?

[The Old Man]

Never saw his parents, he was from Tx and no one that I knew of, knew exactly what he was out of.