Breeding a Dog

[KevinN]

This subject has been brought up before but I'll do it again....just because of a certain dog and the circumstances surrounding him.

There are A LOT of dog hunters out there that believe a dog should be proven....some even say "finished" before it should be bred. Some hunters will respond with this opinion because they are parrots and haven't had enough experience to support said opinion. Others...that have been in the game a while will support this opinion because it's truly how they feel and they have reasons they feel that way that are valid.

Some hunters will swing the other direction...for various reasons.

Me personally...I fall into the second group...and I have just one reason...which I'll cover in a bit.

So....where do you fall?

My fellow Ranger...please do not respond just yet. We'll save your response for a later date.

[KevinN]

Cricketts

[Georgia-Hawgs]

Dont want to sound like a parrot here but I think a dog should be proven first. Good drive from a young age and whatever else the owner would want out of the dog. ( build, temperament , range etc. ) this is just my opinion and im a very inexperienced hunter. But anytime I consider getting a dog or pup from someone I try to find out as much information as I can on background of the dog. Genetics are genetics and will be passed on in my opinion. A cull is a cull . Just like the serious deer hunters that practice Q.D.M. they try there best to manage there land and "cull" out the deer with the small or deformed racks to keep that from being passed on during the rut. But everyone is different and in certain circumstances I can understand breeding without proving a dog. But if you have the capabilities to make sure both sire and dam will be "up to par " I think it should be done. This is just my opinion but maybe one of these experienced fellas on here will chime in and give their advice.

[Mike]

If it comes from a line that consistently produces good dogs, go for it. The lesser dog may produce better than it's "superstar" offspring.

[buddylee]

I would never breed to a crappy dog from a good line. I prefer an average dog from a awesome blood line to a awesome dog from average blood line.
I have a female that doesn't know what a bay is but throws outstanding dogs. The kind of dog I wish I could keep breeding too but can't afford all the pups.

[Reuben]

I copied this post from another forum...The name of the thread is "Who has the best OMCBA Bloodlines" (original mountain cur breeders assoc.). The man was interested in getting a dog from the best bloodlines and below is the response from another dogger...

but first I will say this...the same type answer applies to breeding...there are so many variables and reasons as to why to breed a certain way...I will give one example on another post...read the response below that I copied...I thought it was an excellent response...

Lots of great bloodlines and people just dont want to post probably because it is all a matter of personal preference and lots of times when someone says this line is the best it offends someone else or when someone generalizes on line as only great squirrel dog but not that good on coon or vise versa it can end up with conflicts. Best thing to do is keep on reading and looking and when you see I dog that type of dog you think you would like ask or research its bloodline and see if that seems to be a trait of dogs bred simularly. Lots of lines out there that are good on both some lines seem to do things different then others and all people have different opinions on what is the best. I guess it is kind of like talking to a group of Nascar fans and asking who is the best or sitting in a room full of football fans on Sunday and asking which team was the best.

 Some people like dogs who are open on coons some people don't. Some people don't care about style if they can still get the meat. Some people want a dog who goes real deep, some people don't. Some people think a dog should timber squirrel some people doen't. Some people like it when a dog is on the wood, some people like it when they tree back off the tree, some people could care less either way. Me I like dogs that are linebred out of good lines because to me you know more of what you are getting but there are always exceptions to every rule. I am pretty easy to please as long as they are a pleasure in the woods and do a good job at treeing some squirrels I am happy.


__________________
 GOD BLESS

[Bryant]

If your breeding for your own use and what your doing is working for you, then who's to say whats right or wrong.

If your breeding just to sell pups....well most of those people are doing one thing and saying another anyhow.

The term "proven" is just a general term usually thrown around by people to sound like they know what they're saying.  What does it really mean?  That the dog will find hogs? ...does that make a dog proven?

Me personally, how an individual dog I'm considering breeding performs is important yes, but I put a lot more emphasis on how his/her lineage performs.  I would breed a mediocre dog from a long line of greats way before I'd breed a scatter bred superstar I knew nothing about.

[Reuben]

If your breeding for your own use and what your doing is working for you, then who's to say whats right or wrong.

Me personally, how an individual dog I'm considering breeding performs is important yes, but I put a lot more emphasis on how his/her lineage performs.  I would breed a mediocre dog from a long line of greats way before I'd breed a scatter bred superstar I knew nothing about.

Amen to that...

[WayOutWest]

I agree totally with what Bryant said but there are more than one school's of thought on when to breed a dog. With performance dogs of any kind when there is a chance to lose the dog at any time many guys will breed that dog to insure that the blood stays available in case off losing the dog. Others (especially those who don't have unlimited room and resources) will prove out the dog before breeding. If I had a well bred dog from a long line of well bred dogs I personally wouldn't be afraid of breeding it early if I couldn't get another  like it. Not sayin either way is the only way but I've seen some guys who were really tickled that they bred that special dog once and then lost em.

[Bo Pugh]

i agree with what bryant is saying too. not everyone is going to have the option to breed a superstar male dog and a superstar female dog, even though they might say different, i know of a few people thats been breeding dogs for a long time that wont hunt their female dogs and they raise and have raised some great dogs, so how did the female ever get the chance to be proven if all she has ever done is raise a couple litters of pups. its all according to what you want to make and hope you get it right so you can do it again if the first breeding works out. its old timers over here where i hunt still talk about a dog named black man from back in the day and he just showed up at someones house and they started hunting him, no one knew what he was or where he came from but i still hear the old men talk about him how he was a hog dog kinda like a hoodeni and he was bred and made some nice dogs.

[Bo Pugh]

i though of something to add to my earlier post, people say a female dog needs to be proven, i have never met larry parker but i have hunted with a few parker currs before and have always heard he dont hunt his female dogs, what if one of the ones he started out with wouldnt do like he liked and he culled her, look at all the dogs now days that wouldnt be here that are some great dogs, im just giving that as an example, i dont know if its right are wrong for what your looking for but its sure alot of people that like parker dogs.

[Goose87]

I think people put way to much emphasis on this, on one hand as long you like it then it shouldn't matter as long as your the one feeding it, on the other some people see a young dog something they like and immediately assume it's going to be the next great thing and breed the fire outa him and he never do another thing, much like the competition coon dog world and have litter after litter of duds. People are better off if they get them some pups from PROVEN lines not what's popular on the internet and go from there. Some people are so worried about breeding dogs so they can say "their" line of dogs that tested and proven dogs in the woods and the brood pen are becoming a thing of the past. Only thing you can do is breed, hunt, cull, breed, hunt, cull, repeat and go from there.

[MrsLouisianaHogDog]

I agree totally with what Bryant said but there are more than one school's of thought on when to breed a dog. With performance dogs of any kind when there is a chance to lose the dog at any time many guys will breed that dog to insure that the blood stays available in case off losing the dog. Others (especially those who don't have unlimited room and resources) will prove out the dog before breeding. If I had a well bred dog from a long line of well bred dogs I personally wouldn't be afraid of breeding it early if I couldn't get another  like it. Not sayin either way is the only way but I've seen some guys who were really tickled that they bred that special dog once and then lost em.

I agree with this

[KevinN]

The one and only reason that I fall into the 2nd group is the availability issue. If I like a dog/gyp and I would have no problem owning a few more like it...that's enough for me. So...for the most part...by the time a dog/gyp is 1 1/2 I've made up my mind. This is a far from "finished" dog but chances are it's shown me enough.

What does this have to do with availability? Well...of course it falls into the category of possibly getting killed...but there are other things that can happen as well.

My buddy Judge Peel has a dog that is a perfect example. This dog...in my opinion...is a FINE hog dog...that I bet a WHOLE lot of hunters would love to own. I didn't talk to Peel before I made this post....so...I'll let him fill you in on the details regarding his dog and I'm interested to hear his thoughts.

[Judge peel]

Oh Kevin this breaks my heart every time I think back on that day. Because I was going to breed him to red and lil girl over the next few days then he got his man hood taken I am still sick about. this little dog is about every thing a dog should be to me you know first had of his big bottom his gritt is what cost him his man hood. His range is up and down when I let him out and he is gone I know it's going to be a good night. When he hangs around I know ain't much around he will hood rig cast walk run a track. But the best thing about him is he is my buddy got him by chance I reached the guy that had him for awhile before me and he was just any ole type of breeding nothing fancy no big names or nothing to stand behind him just a dog but man can he shine. I ain't never put a lot of thought in breeding cuz I think it only goes so far god rolls the dice not us I hope this helped Kevin lol

[Reuben]

when breeding an established line then only breeding the very best from that line is the way to go...no excuses and please take off the rose colored glasses...the simplest way I can tell you what a great hog dog is ...is a dog that can find you a hog and bring it to bay when most dogs never knew there was a hog in those big woods...I can write a full page to break it down but that is not the topic...also breeding for natural ability is a big factor as well...when the dog is 5 years old and finally makes a hog dog then you are not what I would call a top breeder...putting lots of time and tracks to make a dog...you can expect the same from the offspring...the percentages will work against you...

Rather than talk about what I favor I will explain how I created a line of cur dogs that I gave up in 2007 and shouldn't have...

speaking on averages as I saw it then...after stock dogs and Airedales and a cold nosed hound I finally decided to do something different...stock dogs didn't have the nose and hunt...Airedales are neither great strike dogs nor are they running catch dogs...

I finally tried some mtn curs that I had to cull for one reason or other...and after a few tries I finally got me a big red kemmer (Goldie) gyp that was bred right...the size was there...how she stopped a hog I liked...good nose and lots of bottom...but two thing I didn't like about her...way too open on track and not as fast on track as I wanted...but there were some greats in her pedigree not to far back and her sire himself was a great dog...

I also found some in San Antonio...the man makes me a deal on 6 mt cur pups that were about 8 month old and those were some hunting machines...first time out I took them to the marsh and they were swimming in the reeds and cattails looking for game...first time on hogs they ran for 3 hours or so and we caught one...moved to another clear cut where we could not walk through because it was so thick and they ran and caught another...they struck again and I couldn't head them off...I found them on my jacket the next morning...I culled three for various reasons and I bred the saddleback female to one of the best brindle bmc's around...I did it to get some size and to shut that mouth some...Smoke was a littlemate to the saddleback (Dragon Lady)...Smoke was as good as a strike dog could be if you didn't mind a very open dog...

Dragon lady produced one pup that I call a once in a lifetime dog because of the brain power he possessed...I tested the pups and no other pup from many litters ever tested as well as him...I tested for natural ability/inclination...
by this time I knew I was serious about breeding a line of curs that could be great hunting dogs and reproducers of great dogs...Even though Yeller was the best I ever had I knew he was scatter bred on the BMC side...They said the sire was Taylor bred but that is all I really knew other than he was a fair hog dog...but I wanted size and tighter mouth and he did bring that along with one heck of a chop mouth at the bay...

I didn't finish out Dragon Lady when I bred her but she already showed me what she could do...

I bred Yeller to the Kemmer gyp and produced some good dogs...Buck was his son and he produced five or six litters...buck was 7/8 mt cur...I knew my pups were hog dogs by a year of age most of the time...if they weren't on an acceptable trend for their age I did not keep them...usually by six months of age I knew that sometimes 10 months...

I also bred a Texas Smoke male to the Kemmer Gyp (Goldie)and used a Son out of that cross for breeding that I named Smoke #2 who was half brother to Buck...Also used a Male out of Buck crossed to a Texas Smoke gyp named Tut Tut (3/4 Texas Smoke) whose name was Red Man...all these dogs were hog dogs except for Tut Tut who had been a coon and squirrel dog...I paid some money for her just because of who she was...her pups were hard hunting and gritty gritty...the females bred were only tested and hunted very little and I turned them over after they produced a litter...limited space was the main reason and turning over the line was another...I chose to hang on to the males for hunting reasons and turned the females over quickly to purify the line...The tightest breeding was breeding buck to his grand daughter and then breeding to the great grand daughter who was also his daughter...

would I do it again now? no, I don't even hunt as often as I like...it costs money and I have to get ready for retirement...
would I do it again if I were younger? probably

in a round about way that was my thoughts on that...and I have no problem doing it that way and will do it that way but my main goal is to produce a few good dogs and not focusing on producing a high percentage of good dogs because of the cost...in other words hang on to good dogs first regardless of how they reproduce...and slowly move in that direction as new dogs are needed...

[Bryant]

When you get past worrying about whether a dog is proven or not, then prepotency comes into play.

Some of the best dogs I've seen hunt, when bred several times couldn't produce anything beyond mediocre.  I've also been witness to some bets placed on so-so dogs that payed.

Sometimes being lucky is better than being good.

[Judge peel]

You can't breed will and heart they got it or they don't. Being damn good with a little luck don't hurt luck it determination dedication and opportunity meeting together

[reatj81]

If you are breeding a family of dogs you should be able to know the dogs traits enough to know if a dog is bred worthy within 3 hunts.

[Reuben]

You can't breed will and heart they got it or they don't. Being damn good with a little luck don't hurt luck it determination dedication and opportunity meeting together

I agree JP...can't breed will and heart in but we can select for it...this is how I see traits that are not that easily seen at a first glance...

traits that are not readily seen in my minds eye are like the ones we can see...for instance/example...a red dog...if red were a trait for will and heart and a light cream red being the least amount and dark Irish red being a dog with so much will and heart that he could over heat and die from not quitting as long as there are hogs to be caught...if it were that easy everyone would have a medium to darker shade of red in their dogs...

I see hunting traits in the same way...