What do you and don't you know about pedigrees?

[CodysCatchdogs]

What I see a lot, experience, and see missued so many times are PAPERS.
Papers on a dog tells you from whom he came from and whence they came from. They are like maps that tell you how that dog came about and how YOU can make more like them (really just as close as you can, there can never be the same dog).
But instead I've seen more often than not people that say these ignorant things.
"Papers don't make the dog."
"Hogs/dogs can't read papers."
"These pups for sale for X amount of money with papers and this much less money without papers."
"I have pups for sale with UKC/ADBA/PKC/AKC/NALC (etc.)" when asked what Bloodline the dog is most of the time they name off a jumbled up mess of fancy names OR worse, "idk they are just registered.".

Ignorance!
Paper doesn't make the dog, no you idiot, his sire and dam did that part. The papers just show you how your animal is bred (repeating myself).
Papers that tell you how the dog is made up tells you just that! What the dog is MADE UP OF!
Hogs and dogs can't read papers. No F***ing duh. Apparently, you can't either.
People that sell puppies for MORE or LESS with or without papers are idiots too. Most of the time...
If you onew what your dogs genetic structure was, the papers wouldn't change the price of the dog, THE BLOOD makes the dog the same price.
People that say "idk they are just registered" are about the same ignorance level as the "papers don't make the dogs" people.
If you don't know how your dog is bred AND you have their papers... Your not reading them. I don't mean Read them I mean READ AND UNDERSTAND them. Why is your dog so awesome? Is it because 2 tight bred families have come together? Are they 3/4 one family and a 1/4 out of another? Is your dog scatter bred?
What's the percentage of successful litter mates? Are they line bred, in-bred, or maybe even have a scratch of different breed in them?
Once you've read and re-read your papers, do you see similar names pop up all the time? Do you know WHY?!

I could go on and on but what I'm stressing is... Don't be ignorant with papers.
Those that don't believe in papers, fine. Stay out of them. Not like you can read them anyways.
Those that like them but aren't intelligent to know what they are REALLY for, get schooled by someone that does.
If you look at how an animal is bred you get slightly closer on how to go about getting another one. ALSO! Did you know that different BLOODLINES of dogs (even in the same breed or cross breeds) have different temperments and work ethics.
That'd be mighty nice to know, huh?
What bloodline suits you better?
Anyways... Thoughts?
Not meant for an argument but maybe there are some people out there with this knowledge that agree with me on the high level of ignorance.

[Nannyslayer]

Papers are a pretty useful tool when breeding dogs. Some dogs do not have papers, that's fine, but the ones that do, it never hurts to take a look and make sure they are from seperate lines, or if they are similar lines.

[halfbreed]

   I'm a firm believer in pedigree's weather from an established organization or an old mans word of what is what and whom  is  whom out of  and so on and so forth .  when I get the hankerin for a new dog or new breed  I will do diligent research of the dogs ancestry .  like the old saying goes  '' the further you can look back the further you can see '' 

[CodysCatchdogs]

That's a good saying Halfbreed, I like it.

[MrsLouisianaHogDog]

I think having the pedigree on a dog is very useful. If a dog is good, I'd sure like to know his recipe. As Cody mentioned, in certain breeds, certain lines of dogs compliment each other and can heighten your chances for a good prospect. Certain lines are known for certain characteristics that you may or may not be looking for in a dog, another reason why knowing the pedigree is useful.  I have dogs registered through a registry, and I also have a couple with hand written pedigrees from seasoned dog men. Heck even folks who are generations deep in their own breeding program tend to keep written logs.

[Judge peel]

I wouldnt know good papers from bad would know the dogs names ether. If they mean something to you than there important. If not than that don't mean you don't know dogs or what a good dog is I write all my stuff what it is and where it came from just so I can keep up but I could care less if it works and produces than good if it don't it don't papers won't change or correct any of that or help your breeding out. But a good dog will. I will probly get name called for that but I don't care good dogs will come up the ranks papers just sit in the desk drawer lol. I ain't against them just don't do nothing for me if the papers say there good then by golly they best be or you got some expensive TP lol.

[Judge peel]

Oh here is a factoid my dogs are awesome cuz there mine and I shed blood sweat and tears with them. We go to battle with pride self confidence and the hunger for the game that's what makes champions. Now all that won't make cull into Cezar but the right dog given the chance won't need a ped that glows in the dark

[CodysCatchdogs]

Papers... May they be with a registration or hand written.
They are maps of your dog. If you don't care to read them or learn about the dogs of their history. Then that is fine. If you don't care about your dog producing good or not... Then why breed them?
Your dogs are not any less awesome than what you believe they are to be.

Judge, No one denies that you or your dogs don't "hunger" for the game or shed those precious tears. That's not at all what I'm talking about.
Your dogs are good because A: they want to be (can't lead a horse to water and make him drink) B: because they want it, you have good guidance in their training C: exposing them to said Game

Their papers are for you to understand what makes them good (yes their history does make them good), and how they were formed from what dogs. Even if ol' Roy was bred to Daisy and made a whole litter of bad asses, you still know where they came from!
If they don't have papers, no room for understanding!
If an old man hands you a hand written pedigree, tells you about every dog in that pedigree so YOU can know what line of dogs your Dog comes from. That's some valuable information.
If you toss it aside For your Glorified whatever it is that you do without careing for what the old hard working dog man has done. Good for you...

[MrsLouisianaHogDog]

I don't believe Cody was insinuating that if a dog doesn't have papers, they're a piece of shat. I didn't get that from her post at all. I do think that she was making a point of what a valuable tool a dogs pedigree CAN be.  Knowing a dogs lineage, strong traits from a certain line, can definitely help ones breeding program.

[Reuben]

for a pedigree to have real value one must know what type of hunting dog each and every dog was/is in that pedigree...

pedigrees are great but the problem I see is the fact that too many people do not have the same standards when it comes to breeding better dogs...it is either outcrossing too often which will not give you uniformity and that is scatter breeding at best...however, if one is not interested in high percentages of high quality dogs produced then one can get a pack going pretty quick doing it that way...but reproducing their selves will not come in high percentages...

the other issue that I have already mentioned about not everyone having the same standards is a problem embedded in the pedigree as well...

when we see more than a few top dogs in the pedigree especially when it is a few that repeat 2 or 3 times then there is a good chance one will get a few pups of the same caliber and type...

pedigrees are great don't get me wrong...but those are the first thoughts that enter my mind when I look at a pedigree...

[CodysCatchdogs]

Then you know what pedigrees are for and how to read them.
Bravo!

[Cajun]

Most people who study pedigrees follow a certain breed. Whether it is coon dogs, bear dogs, bird dogs, whatever, they know what & who have the better dogs or champions in the breed & breed around them to suit their criteria. Also whether line breeding, inbreeding, or breeding unrelated dogs there have been great dogs that have been reproduced & also a bunch of culls. Papers will tell you which dogs are reproducing the better dogs in every breed & most people will breed around them.
  I have always had a saying similar to Halfbreeds, a dog without a history, does not have much of a future.
  Also, as bad as this sounds, papers are only as good as the man who is signing them. There have been a lot of falsified papers.

[Reuben]

Most people who study pedigrees follow a certain breed. Whether it is coon dogs, bear dogs, bird dogs, whatever, they know what & who have the better dogs or champions in the breed & breed around them to suit their criteria. Also whether line breeding, inbreeding, or breeding unrelated dogs there have been great dogs that have been reproduced & also a bunch of culls. Papers will tell you which dogs are reproducing the better dogs in every breed & most people will breed around them.
  I have always had a saying similar to Halfbreeds, a dog without a history, does not have much of a future.
  Also, as bad as this sounds, papers are only as good as the man who is signing them. There have been a lot of falsified papers.

I agree...when I was breeding my own dogs I only bred dogs which I considered to be the very best...when one can only keep 6 or 7 grown dogs and 4 or 5 pups...then space becomes so limited that there is no room for error...all the dogs need to bring all they can offer to the table...the goal should be for all the dogs to look right...hunt right....act right...and they should fit perfectly in the pedigree for breeding purposes as well...

having said...there are too many different ideas as to what a good dog should be...but I reckon that is what makes the world go round...

a dog from a great pedigree (line of dogs) that hunts right is far more valuable than a great scatter bred dog if you are also thinking of breeding a few litters...

[halfbreed]

   what we need to do is remove the word papers and just use pedigree . most on here with dogs without '' papers '' still know a lot of the dogs pedigree   [ even judge   lol  ]  papers and pedigree or lineage  are no different it's just a trail of blood sweat and tears from the former breeders behind the dogs . papers be it a registry , a bunch of names wrote on a paper sack or from the memory are no different . just like you know who your grandpa and grandma are [ well most of you ] it's not from a permanent registry but in the back of an old book your mother has held onto  . one of the best I ever had on my yard I knew squat about and have regretted it ever since and I tried like hell to find out because I would have hocked the farm and bought her sire and dame and grand sire and a couple of aunts .

[WayOutWest]

The one thing predominant in the APBT world is false papers thru the years. You can't find a game dog out there today with 100% true papers. The only ones that you know for sure are the ones you bred yourself. Those men competing with there dogs were not gonna give you the recipe, they might give you a bowl of soup but you didn't get the recipe. I can't speak for other breeds but I know this to be true.

[CodysCatchdogs]

Yes papers are a little heavily used as far as good or bad.
Pedigrees is better for the discussion of good dogs.
As far as the papers goes I'm hoping others would realize there is more to them than just money or status or the dogs can't read, blah blah blah.

False papers are always disheartening! I know that APBTs have false papers on many... I also know some Catahoula dogs that have some bad papers... I know personally Plummer's Dotty Rambo. My husband owned her and culled her but still her name lived on... Weird.
Anyways...
Glad we have some intelligent people that know how to read papers and understand the importance of being able to read and understand the dog's pedigree. Paper or not.

[Judge peel]

Lol Cody'scatchdog you can't take everything I say to serous I like to cut up. But I really really don't see the big deal on papers I mean if you like to read up on all the peds and learn all you can on them that's great. I do believe half of the papers in the game dogs and hunting dogs are bs living off a dog or dogs legend. They scratch them papers to benefit there status and there wallet. I do also think the better the papers the higher the expectation are for the dog after all it's only a dog. A wise old man (my pee paw) told me not all dogs are good just like some people ain't good ether but got some reason we hang on to them

[CodysCatchdogs]

Yes Judge, I agree with you on it just being a dog after all. Also, the higher bred the animal is the more you expect from their pups. I agree to that also.
But The discussion is generalized on how important it is to understand registration. Not for people to say I don't know their bloodline, they are just registered. Or someone to holler around that the papers don't make the dog.
The paper doesn't no, but knowing the bloodline made the dog.
As far as looking at a dog's bloodline and expecting the offspring to be what their made of... I'd much rather have that to look forward to. Everyone has let downs in breeding dogs.
My husband bred 2 Catahoulas together once. Entire litter was crap. Out of 2 A-Team dogs.
Some how... My husband's friend talked him into breeding the same dogs back together... The second litter, all made good to Great dogs. Weird how that happens.
But! That second litter also produced good dogs that are still present in his dog's pedigrees to this day.

[Judge peel]

Cody the biggest thing I have learned is that you read peds and under stand what is behind but there is no way to tell what's in front of you but your eyes. IMO most guys that breed a ton of dogs are looking for something they don't have or trying to sale pups not much in between if a fella only breeds so often he probly has something he don't want others to have. I have had many a dog most I could tell what this and that was but I could tell what the dog was. People lie to much even your best buddy and the guy that he knows lol

[devildawg86]

To some it matters to others it doesn't.  If you r breeding yes. If u r just using not so much. If the dogs r good enough and breed enough you can just go to the source. Too each his own.  People get bent out of shape about everything. Do what works for u!