cloning

[halfbreed]

   well even being genetically identical there would still be room for a splash of color here and there  .

[joshg223]

I don't think anyone knows what actually leads to the position and extent of white markings on horses. I've read that it has to do with the migration..or lack thereof...of melanocytes (the pigmented skin cells) to the distal part of the limb bud during early development. If they don't make it all the way out there and proliferate, parts of teh body are unpigmented (white). The same probably directs melanocyte migration to the in the head. White patches = lack of melanocytes. Errors in directions to these cells cause white spots. As people who bred horses liked white patches, these coat patterns stayed in the gene pool. They're definitely inherited.

The answer, though, is differences in gene expression in a cell. Clones have identical DNA, but the way the DNA is transcribed to RNA, and the way the RNA is translated to making a protein, can be specific to the cell. There are epigenetic factors - basically, chemicals that adhere to certain parts of the genome - that dictate NOT whether the DNA is there, but how often the DNA is read to make RNA and how efficiently that is made into functional proteins. Think about a fertilized egg. It divides into two cells, then 4 cells, then 8 cells, then 16 cells, then 32 cells, etc. Every time the cell divides, it has to make a perfect copy of its DNA. The cell machinery isn't always perfect and little changes in DNA can occur. Also, those chemicals that can affect gene expression can get added or subtracted as cells divide. Many of them, however, are passed on to the daughter cells. That's how identical cells can have different levels of gene expression, and how people and horses and dogs with identical DNA can express that DNA differently and have unique physical features.

People used to say that differences in mare markings are due to the mare's womb, becuase two identical twins can have different markings. But twins from the same horse can have different markings and I think our understanding of genetics and epigenetics has evolved greatly since those first articles were published in the 80s and 1990.

[Goose87]

Was just discussing this with a vet and embryologist the other day during a transfer, I was told that they would have the same genotype but might be different phenotypic

[dallas22]

Well I'm a Mexican an I've always been told we all alike. Lol cloning take that!!!

meant to say we all look alike.

[Reuben]

IMO it is possible that the clone will not be reproduced as an identical from the cloned individual for several reasons...inside the womb the cloned pup might not be in the exact same type of environment as the animal it was cloned off of...let us say that the animal used for clonings mother was a great hunting dog that was hunting 3 times a week when pregnant and the pup inside who is attached to her for nourishment etc... went along for the ride...all her excitement when she inhaled the scent of a boar and trailing off the scent caused chemical reactions that somehow affected the pup...he felt her excitement and when he was born he had a natural inclination to love baying and running a hog...his dam also ate quite a bit of raw meat so that also was a factor in making him what and who he is...all those things could have caused him to be born a certain kind of way phenotypically and genotypically...his dam is a plott gyp and it is possible that that super active lifestyle she maintained while pregnant could have also played a big role on what her son came to be...

That Plott pup turns out so good they decided to clone him and they use an old collie gyp as a the one to carry the embryo to full term...she does not hunt and only eats dog chow and nothing else...she does not exercise and the cloned pup is born and...

the cloned pup is raised in a totally different environment as the super plott that was cloned...so does that play a role in creating a bigger difference in the two?

[Goose87]

Interesting point rueben, a lot of our recip cows are dairy crossed and the reason being is to have them high weaning weights and to raise bigger thicker calves, so yea I can see where your going with it.

[Shotgun wg]

IMO it is possible that the clone will not be reproduced as an identical from the cloned individual for several reasons...inside the womb the cloned pup might not be in the exact same type of environment as the animal it was cloned off of...let us say that the animal used for clonings mother was a great hunting dog that was hunting 3 times a week when pregnant and the pup inside who is attached to her for nourishment etc... went along for the ride...all her excitement when she inhaled the scent of a boar and trailing off the scent caused chemical reactions that somehow affected the pup...he felt her excitement and when he was born he had a natural inclination to love baying and running a hog...his dam also ate quite a bit of raw meat so that also was a factor in making him what and who he is...all those things could have caused him to be born a certain kind of way phenotypically and genotypically...his dam is a plott gyp and it is possible that that super active lifestyle she maintained while pregnant could have also played a big role on what her son came to be...

That Plott pup turns out so good they decided to clone him and they use an old collie gyp as a the one to carry the embryo to full term...she does not hunt and only eats dog chow and nothing else...she does not exercise and the cloned pup is born and...

the cloned pup is raised in a totally different environment as the super plott that was cloned...so does that play a role in creating a bigger difference in the two?

Interesting perspective but I don't think the pup in utero has any idea as to what mom is sniffing or getting excited about. If that was possible every body would be hunting pregnant bitches.


Shotgun
Arkansas

[Reuben]

Shotgun...just throwing it out there to get some discussion started...don't have that around here like we once had...

however I will add this to what I already said...the dam who is connected to the pup will have a boost of adrenaline pass to the pups and it just might be enough that when the pup smell pig at 10-12 weeks of age and is facing a piglet he might go off into fit  with baying and possibly eyes glazing over...and the next litter it will take a little longer to get the same results...it could be that it is not that noticeable but it could be there,,,

Why is it that women need to take certain vitamins as soon as they get pregnant so the baby will have a lot less chance of being born with certain diseases and conditions...

also, why is it that babies can be born addicted to crack/cocaine...and why is it that a women should not consume high amounts of alcohol or even smoke cigarettes while pregnant...

it is theories or ideas like this that can change the game even if it is minimal...sounds way out there but something to think about...

[colecross]

Good info reuben ,my daddy and grandaddy would hunt a preg dog up till the dog wouldnt come out its house,are wouldnt come to the end of its chain.he would say she knows wen to hunt ,and wen to start nesting,and the bitch dog and pups would always be close to a few hogs they keep caught up.them old folks was on to something,i always try keep my preg females in hog sign as long as i can.and i always have a boar hog caught up.have one now for the last 5 yrs.just saying.

[charles]

reuben, i would have to agree with you on your conclusion. humans fetuses can contract addictions to certain things entered into the system during development with no interactions with substances themselves other than through the mothers system. it stands to reason the animal kingdom is no different. developing fetuses in the womb can detect stress levels in the mother from different things in her environment, i.e.: stresses from work, stresses from physical/verbal abuse and so on, which can and in most case will be passed to the child during development.
now for the animal world, the carrying bitch running game during her pregnancy will produce certain bodily chemicals that are passed through the blood/nerological system during development, that when born, the offspring will know quite well upon the scent of the game.
if none of that is true, then how is that dogs that were used for hunting and now watered down for show dogs can't find their food bowl unless someone walks them to it, but yet a dog of the same breed, not watered down, can find his feed, plus game, solely because the breed used only for hunting retains the drive from the chemicals produced during the pregnancy, and those used for show have had the hunt bred out of them. frequently there are topics relating to the watering down certain breed of hunting dogs, used for show/money and folks are warned about buying dogs from a reputable hunter with a good track record of producing quality dogs strictly for hunting and staying away from the "name brand" dogs in a breed because some or a lot have been watered down and the hunt bred rite out them.

[Shotgun wg]

The hunt in a dog is a trait that is selectively bred for. In the show dogs that was not important so that trait was not tested for or selected purposely. In a human child addiction is passed to the child due to the chemicals that are in the blood. That blood is shared with the child and the child receives the same high. The scent receptors in a dogs nose send a signal to the brain. That scent is not getting to that pup nor is that signal from the brain going to the pup. I'm sure that adrenaline rush is sent to the pups. Adrenaline now that can be as addictive that could be the key. It's not the scent that transfers to the pup but the adrenaline. Seeing a pig or something triggers that adrenaline and instantly they know that rush and want it again. The fact that it's a pig or whatever isn't as important as the rush. Once they find that rush they want it again.


Shotgun
Arkansas

[Judge peel]

Imo cloning is stupid


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[Reuben]

we know that selection for working dogs is very important...but I am talking about the things that are never really discussed or even thought about...

if we smell scent or an odor then we are inhaling molecules because they are floating in the air...if we can smell them then it is very possible if not probable that they are also getting into our blood stream same as smoking pot or cigarettes do...if we can inhale oxygen into our blood stream then why not these odor molecules? and if it is something pleasurable to the dam then why can't it be passed on to the pups as something good and exciting...I am not saying I am right but I solved many a problem at my job that the experts had given up on by thinking outside the box...again I am not saying I am right but I believe...as a kid I hunted a female until she was ready to drop and all 4 pups were game getting fools...of course one example does not prove anything...

I remember the first time I read something about scent imprinting years ago I thought the man was full of poop...but after I learned a few more things in life I started reasoning out by my thinking on the things I posted here and developed my personal theories on it...and about what he had written in that article...and it makes sense to me...

[WayOutWest]

One of the reasons we breed dogs is to make better dogs. I don't believe that you have a chance at a better dog with a clone. Maybe as good but maybe not. With a breeding you are crossing up 2 sets of chromosomes in hopes of something better. JMO

[Judge peel]

They can never match what the original is if they could they would. Imo it's playing with fire if a benefit other than the re production of the original then maybe seems like a guy being a mad scientist 


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[Reuben]

One of the reasons we breed dogs is to make better dogs. I don't believe that you have a chance at a better dog with a clone. Maybe as good but maybe not. With a breeding you are crossing up 2 sets of chromosomes in hopes of something better. JMO

I agree...

[Cajun]

One of the reasons we breed dogs is to make better dogs. I don't believe that you have a chance at a better dog with a clone. Maybe as good but maybe not. With a breeding you are crossing up 2 sets of chromosomes in hopes of something better. JMO

  I agree also. I also think you will never get better dogs then what is in the pedigree of the dogs you are trying to breed. The problem is when you have the really great dogs, they have such a hard time reproducing there selves. Cloning might get you there a little faster but it is going to be too expensive for the average dog owner. I have owned & seen a few dogs that I would love to have a clone of, even if they were not quite what the original was.

[WayOutWest]

I believe if you are breeding good dogs from strong gene pools you will consistently better dogs than average, and if you keep doing it long enough you will get the occasional super dog. I don't think you have a chance to get that superstar thru cloning. JMO

[Goose87]

If there was anything to it then the racehorse world would have cornered the market as well as other forms of animal sports.

[Reuben]

If there was anything to it then the racehorse world would have cornered the market as well as other forms of animal sports.

I agree with this Goose...even if it could be done I think it needs to be kept out of the competitions on account it wouldn't be worth the time to pay for what your already know what to expect...If a Secretariat could be recreated through cloning it would be an awesome horse but I would not have any interest in him as a racehorse...