Game bred American pit bull terriers

[boarboy]

Ok guys I'm lookin for some true game dogs. Wondering if old family red nose is still around. Interested in that and chinamen. Anyone know any breeders?

[Judge peel]

There are a bunch of guys and gals on here that have what your looking for


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[boarboy]

Good lookin dog. How's it bred?

[redriverslim]

I would respectfully attempt to clarify that "old family red nose" is not actually game bred at this point in the 21st century.  The term "old family red nose" is a term that was used around the turn of the 20th century to describe a group/family/line of game bred bull & terriers brought to the US from mainly Irish immigrants.  These dogs were apparently red/red nose and were known for their gameness.  The term "old family" was basically referring to a family of Irish import red/red nose dogs from the "old country".  The term was used "appropriately" through the first part of the 20th century, up through the 1950's, 60's and even into the 70's.  There were a handful of breeders who could trace their dogs back to heavily influenced "old family red nose" stock.  Breeders such as Jake Wilder, Bob Hemphill, Bob Wallace and Bill Lightner.  These breeders often swapped dogs with each other, traded, bred to each others dogs, etc.  Their dogs were mostly red/red nose/ red toenails/ etc.  As the 1960's and 70's approached, the term "old family red nose" was really not even being used anymore by gamedog men.  The dogs at that point were just referred to by the name of their respective breeders because they were so far removed from actual OLD FAMILY dogs by that time, example: Wallace dogs, Hemphill dogs, Lightner dogs etc.  I feel I am uniquely qualified to verify this, because my mentor (the man who schooled me) was a protégé of Bob Wallace.  Bob Wallace had two protégé young dogmen who he mentored during the 1950's-60's.  One was my mentor /partner / friend of 30 years, and the other was Richard Stratton (that's right, the same Richard Stratton who writes all the books, as Mr Stratton was stationed at Jacksonville Air Force Base in Little Rock).  When these men died, the reputation of their dogs died with them.  Bob Wallace was from Little Rock, ARK and was a gameness fanatic.  But you won't see a dog anywhere in 2015 that has Wallace blood running through it, and it most certainly will not be "gamebred".  The same goes for Lightner, Hemphill, etc.  While these dogs are beautiful animals, and will represent the traditional "look" of the old family red nose, they in all likelihood will not be game-bred.  This is not to step on any toes, but most folks do not understand the meaning of the term "game-bred".  I believe it would be a pretty fair assessment to argue that an "old family red nose" dog had not been seen, used, or bred by any SERIOUS GAMEDOG MAN since probably the 1980's.  They are just not game-bred anymore, and they haven't been for decades.  Now what does game-bred mean?  Just because a bulldog had some game ancestors somewhere back in the 6th generation, this does not make them gamebred.  Gameness is recessive, and it must be tested for, selected for, and held onto religiously.  There are breeders out there who breed, raise, and catch with big red/red nose dogs.  And they make great hog dogs in most cases, because they are NOT GAMEBRED.  A lot of times, people will just call them "old family red nose" simply to describe any red/red nose pitbull.  The truth, most all lines of pitbulls throw red nosed dogs, depending on what they are crossed with.  And to go back far enough in a pedigree to find some dogs that were actually "old family red nose", you would have to be able to trace that back to the 1960's.   

As for Chinaman blood.  Chinaman was sired by Woods Trouble and out of Abernathy's Molly.  Chinaman was basically an Eli bred dog, for the most part.  A lot of people don't know that.  Was Chinaman a great producer?  Was he a piece of crap? Definitely NOT.  He was a very good dog.  His most famous son (I guess) was Garner's Frisco.  I had a son of Frisco X Hollingsworth Polly.  Decent dog, but nothing to write home about.  Frisco threw a fairly high percentage of curs, but threw some good dogs also.  That is the most difficult part of the equation that most folks have trouble understanding.  It's not the bloodline that makes the dog good . . . it's the dog that makes the bloodline good.  Chinaman blood, Eli blood, Jeep blood, or Old Family blood . . . its not the blood you need, it's a GOOD DOG from the bloodline that's important.  Most Chinaman blood you see now will be down from Frisco.  Nothing wrong with Chinaman blood, it's just WHICH CHINAMAN dog specifically is the blood coming from.  The blood running through the dogs veins from years back will not make the dog a good dog.  One dog that plays a major role in the Chinaman blood that's out there and available to the public now is Garner's Ch. Simba.  Simba quit (curred out) against GR CH Spanky. And then he was taken home and bred to lots of females and lots of puppies were sold. 

I guess the moral of the story is, a bloodline is only as good as the man who buys its feeds and culls it. 

                     

[Judge peel]

He got chinaman and carver blood in him the exacts not sure he is owned by my cuzin


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[WayOutWest]

Slim, most of what you wrote was true but the "Original old Family dogs" were not red. They come in different colors but it all morphed into Old family reds. And while it's true you won't find many game Old family red red nose dogs. There are a few guys keepin them. But there are a few guys who have kept some relatively game Am Staffs too.

[Treezbulldogz]

I'll post a ped when Jack gets his site working, it's down right now. But I have a dog with chinaman through frisco and one without frisco. That's one is through earl jr.

[Goose87]

Redriverslim I wish that statement could be posted worldwide for everyone to see, I get so sick of hearing folks say this ole dog is so and so bred, it ain't the pedigree that's makes the dog,its the production, the pedigree just gives you an idea of what to expect.

[Judge peel]

The best way to have a clear view of a dog is to expect nothing if it could it would and if it won't it probably never will


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[WayOutWest]

Back in the mid 80's Frisco was given to a fellow to raise and he was a school custodian so had summers off. He spent a couple weeks at my house with that Frisco. The dog was so wacked I never even took a pic cause I didn't think he would live to see a yr. old. He was 8 mo. and was flat backed and long and so shy you would have to corner him in the back yard to catch him after turning him out. I was absolutely shocked to see down the road that he was this highly sought after stud. 

[Judge peel]

Funny how things turn out hype has a lot to do with the legends of these dogs. There are some that are better that never was on paper or owned by a guy with a big reputation just doing his own thing the Bulldogs we use for catch dog are not the turn of the century type dogs in some ways that's good and some bad game bred only means that line was gamey for pitting nothing else 


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[tmatt]

Well said Slim!
Wayoutwest, it's funny you say that about that Frisco dog because a lot of the so called "frisco" dogs are extremely shy. A lot of folks don't believe that shyness is heriditary. A lot of them will also eat you up when you put your hands on them too.

[charles]

I never could get a solid answer on this dog, Iv been told chinaman, but never could get prove it, but would love to have another one like him.



Anybody got anything like this, pm me please. I would love to have another. He was 90-100lbs of catching power and was as lovable as a stuffed teddy bear for a child.


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[TheRednose]

Dang Charles that dog was a monster. 90-100lbs thats a huge pit! I would have like to see him work, had to be impressive.

[Reuben]

I would respectfully attempt to clarify that "old family red nose" is not actually game bred at this point in the 21st century.  The term "old family red nose" is a term that was used around the turn of the 20th century to describe a group/family/line of game bred bull & terriers brought to the US from mainly Irish immigrants.  These dogs were apparently red/red nose and were known for their gameness.  The term "old family" was basically referring to a family of Irish import red/red nose dogs from the "old country".  The term was used "appropriately" through the first part of the 20th century, up through the 1950's, 60's and even into the 70's.  There were a handful of breeders who could trace their dogs back to heavily influenced "old family red nose" stock.  Breeders such as Jake Wilder, Bob Hemphill, Bob Wallace and Bill Lightner.  These breeders often swapped dogs with each other, traded, bred to each others dogs, etc.  Their dogs were mostly red/red nose/ red toenails/ etc.  As the 1960's and 70's approached, the term "old family red nose" was really not even being used anymore by gamedog men.  The dogs at that point were just referred to by the name of their respective breeders because they were so far removed from actual OLD FAMILY dogs by that time, example: Wallace dogs, Hemphill dogs, Lightner dogs etc.  I feel I am uniquely qualified to verify this, because my mentor (the man who schooled me) was a protégé of Bob Wallace.  Bob Wallace had two protégé young dogmen who he mentored during the 1950's-60's.  One was my mentor /partner / friend of 30 years, and the other was Richard Stratton (that's right, the same Richard Stratton who writes all the books, as Mr Stratton was stationed at Jacksonville Air Force Base in Little Rock).  When these men died, the reputation of their dogs died with them.  Bob Wallace was from Little Rock, ARK and was a gameness fanatic.  But you won't see a dog anywhere in 2015 that has Wallace blood running through it, and it most certainly will not be "gamebred".  The same goes for Lightner, Hemphill, etc.  While these dogs are beautiful animals, and will represent the traditional "look" of the old family red nose, they in all likelihood will not be game-bred.  This is not to step on any toes, but most folks do not understand the meaning of the term "game-bred".  I believe it would be a pretty fair assessment to argue that an "old family red nose" dog had not been seen, used, or bred by any SERIOUS GAMEDOG MAN since probably the 1980's.  They are just not game-bred anymore, and they haven't been for decades.  Now what does game-bred mean?  Just because a bulldog had some game ancestors somewhere back in the 6th generation, this does not make them gamebred.  Gameness is recessive, and it must be tested for, selected for, and held onto religiously.  There are breeders out there who breed, raise, and catch with big red/red nose dogs.  And they make great hog dogs in most cases, because they are NOT GAMEBRED.  A lot of times, people will just call them "old family red nose" simply to describe any red/red nose pitbull.  The truth, most all lines of pitbulls throw red nosed dogs, depending on what they are crossed with.  And to go back far enough in a pedigree to find some dogs that were actually "old family red nose", you would have to be able to trace that back to the 1960's.   

As for Chinaman blood.  Chinaman was sired by Woods Trouble and out of Abernathy's Molly.  Chinaman was basically an Eli bred dog, for the most part.  A lot of people don't know that.  Was Chinaman a great producer?  Was he a piece of crap? Definitely NOT.  He was a very good dog.  His most famous son (I guess) was Garner's Frisco.  I had a son of Frisco X Hollingsworth Polly.  Decent dog, but nothing to write home about.  Frisco threw a fairly high percentage of curs, but threw some good dogs also.  That is the most difficult part of the equation that most folks have trouble understanding.  It's not the bloodline that makes the dog good . . . it's the dog that makes the bloodline good.  Chinaman blood, Eli blood, Jeep blood, or Old Family blood . . . its not the blood you need, it's a GOOD DOG from the bloodline that's important.  Most Chinaman blood you see now will be down from Frisco.  Nothing wrong with Chinaman blood, it's just WHICH CHINAMAN dog specifically is the blood coming from.  The blood running through the dogs veins from years back will not make the dog a good dog.  One dog that plays a major role in the Chinaman blood that's out there and available to the public now is Garner's Ch. Simba.  Simba quit (curred out) against GR CH Spanky. And then he was taken home and bred to lots of females and lots of puppies were sold. 

I guess the moral of the story is, a bloodline is only as good as the man who buys its feeds and culls it. 

                     

this is one of the best write ups written in a long time about the game bred dogs...it applies for all breeds in general...

there used to be a Doberman bred in the 1950's that was a world class show dog....and 50 years later folks were still advertising that line of dogs when selling pups...I reckon it is a good sales pitch if nothing else...

I like a good looking dog whether it is a pit or a poodle...I remember back in the 1980's the dog pound was full of pitbulls...and one could go get one and more than likely it would make a good catch dog...my logic tells me the reason for that more than likely is because they were not that far removed from the fighting pits...now thirty years later these dogs are totally watered down and some make look exceptional but they will not catch...the last 2 I raised from pups and they were about as good looking as 75 pounds pitbulls should look but neither would catch...

The red red nose dog was out of weight pulling dogs and he had all the right equipment to do the job...I wouldn't mind having another just like him that could do a good job as a catch dog...I like them agile, quick and fast, with some good wind to them...

[redriverslim]

Reuben, I'm glad you brought up the Dobermans.  Reuben is referring to a famous Doberman from the 1950's named "Borong The Warlock".  This was a show Doberman that was raised by a man named Henry Frampton and his wife.  They were heavily involved in the showing of Dobermans in the 40's and 50's.  Warlock became a show champion, and quite famous as a sire of show quality conformation Dobermans.  Warlock was a STANDARD SIZED Doberman that was very friendly with people and other dogs.  Then somewhere in the 1970's the legend of the Warlock Doberman resurfaced and the name "Warlock" was forever to be associated with a GIANT DOBERMAN, vicious to the core, the reincarnation of Satan himself.  These new "Warlock" Dobermans were said to breath fire, and have red glowing eyes.  100 lbs, 150 lbs, 200 lbs, . . . and the urban legend grows.  This myth of the Warlock Doberman is said to have been created by a woman dog peddler in the Pasadena, TX area (but that is not confirmed).  Whatever the case may be, there is no arguing that the urban legend myth of the "Warlock" Doberman is alive and well in 2015.  Just do a google search, or pick up any newspaper or thrifty nickel and you will see some booger eating moron with . . . . "Warlock Dobermans For Sale".  Hell, there are two ads for Warlock Dobermans in my local paper right now.  Call up any of these fools and ask them what is a Warlock Doberman and then just get ready to laugh your ass off.  99% of them will have never even heard of "Borong the Warlock" which was the mild mannered, standard sized family Doberman from 60 years ago that has no true connection to the garbage they are peddling.  However, you are guaranteed to hear them explain how the Warlock is the most vicious of all the Dobermans, often weighing 200 lbs, with teeth the size of railroad spikes, and fire spewing from their nostrils, a stomp down man killer of the highest order, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound, and kill an African lion and then eat it, etc. etc. etc. 

Now the reason I tell the story of Warlock is because a lot of the myths and legends that surrounded this dog can be directly related to Pitbulls in SO MANY WAYS.  First, let me say that I have been a hog hunter and have had some pretty good hog dogs, but I will be the first to admit that there are tons of good dog men on this forum that know far more about hog hunting than I do.  And I will be the first one to acknowledge their greater experience.  However, when it comes to gamedogs, it will be hard to find anyone on this board that knows more than I do.  There are 1/2 dozen knowledgeable gamedog men on this board, and I know who they are. 

When it comes to pitbulls . . . here are the most common and most misunderstood myths/urban legends.  Any of you new hunters out there who are looking for catch dogs, raising catch dogs, buying a catch dog . . . here is the truth.  Maybe this will help you.

1)  A pitbull does not "LOCK".  There is no such thing as lockjaw. 

2) Red Nose is NOT a bloodline.  Its the color of the dogs nose and it means absolutely NOTHING other than the pigmentation, that's it.  It does not signify quality or lack thereof.

3) Blue Nose is NOT a bloodline.  See myth #2.  Blue pits are nothing more than a diluted pigmentation of what a dog's natural hair color would be.  It's a genetic abnormality that must be selected for to keep the color blue, as nature will always revert back to what is natural law.  Blue is not a true correct color for an American Pitbull Terrier.  A blue pitbull will NEVER be a gamebred bulldog.  Reason: no gamedog breeder would ever put the blue color into his line, and no true gamedog breeder would ever breed for an exotic color in the first place.  But blue dogs often make some of the best catchdogs.

4) Gator Pit is NOT a bloodline.  This falls under the "Warlock Doberman" rule.  Somewhere along the way, the term Gator Pit became the "Warlock Doberman" of Pitbulls.  Now I have been around pitbulls my whole life, having owned so many 100's of them that couldn't count them.  And I have yet to find any serious bulldog man who understands what a "gator pit" is.  Now there was Crenshaw's Ch Gator, there was Lloyd's Ch Gator, there was Plumber's Alligator, but it seems that the guys who always have the Gator Pits for sale have never heard of these dogs.  Read Warlock Story above.

5) Gator Mouth Pit (see myth #4).  This is the mysterious Gator Pit with the word "mouth" inserted.  This moronic term is meant to imply that the pitbull has a bite so strong that it is like the bite of an alligator.  Just DUMB.

6) Just saying the combination of the words . . "Boudreaux / Chinaman" . . in the same sentence does not signify quality. 

7) Real gamedogs do not have cropped ears.  Now this is not to say that there is not the rare exception, but for the most part, when you go to look at a man's bulldogs and they all have cropped ears, this usually would indicate that they are probably not gamebred.  Why is this?  Gamedog men would never spend the money or the trouble to crop a dogs ears that may just get culled later.  Cropped ears on bulldogs look kinda cool to some people, but that's about all their is to it.  The urban legend of the cropped eared pitbull says that the cropped ears prevents the other dog from holding on to them in a contest.  This is total garbage logic.  Its a myth

Gamedog breeders do not feed gunpowder to make the dogs mean.  Nor do they feed them baby kittens, or hook jumper cables to their testicals, or any other similar "National Enquirer" type sensationalized media hype that gets put out there.

9)  Pitbulls do not develop a taste for blood.  This is equal to believing in vampires.   

10) When a man tells you how his bulldogs are bred, ask him to explain how.  In other words, if he says he's got Boudreaux/Chinaman bred pups for sale, ask him to prove it.  Tell him to show you the papers. They don't have to be registration papers, but any serious gamedog man will at least have handwritten records of his breedings.  Also, when he says he has Boudreaux pups, ask him which specific Boudreaux dogs or which specific Chinaman dogs, etc.  If he can't tell you the name of the individual dogs and who bred them, what they've done, what they've produced, etc. . . then their is a good chance the dogs are probably not even bred that way. 

All pitbulls have the potential to make outstanding hog catch dogs.  Its usually the non-gamebred ones that turn out to be the best catch dogs in the highest percentages.  I am just trying to clarify some myths associated with "gamedogs" for those folks out there who might find all this stuff to be confusing.                     

[redriverslim]

P.S.   I have some red nose pups for sale.  The daddy is a budro gatormouth rednose carver 100 lbs. . . . and the momma is a black widow, german rednose, crossed over a double gatormouth Frisco pit.  The pups are all champagne blue rednose and they are all guaranteed to be Warlock gator mouths.  These pups come with a "lock-jaw" guarantee.     

[WayOutWest]

Slim, this is about the best post on these dogs I have ever seen put up. So much of the time I just gotta not say anything cause I just haven't got the time to try straighten out the myths and outright lies. Well done sir!

[charles]

Slim, is that a money back garantee? If so, ill buy the whole litter. Do you take a rubber checks? 
That is a good informative post you made. Hopefully it will enlighten new readers.

[Judge peel]

The guys that believe those things will never change there minds. Good right up tho as we all know well some of us that it won't change any one   


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