Game bred American pit bull terriers

[CHRIS H.]

Good read y'all ! I really enjoy pedigree history write ups like that
Thanks !

[redriverslim]

Slim, is that a money back garantee? If so, ill buy the whole litter. Do you take a rubber checks? 
That is a good informative post you made. Hopefully it will enlighten new readers.

yes they are guaranteed.  If they are not the most tightest bred gator mouth double german red nose Frisco black widow budro jarhead pits you've ever seen, simply return the pup and I will replace it with a 100 lb. triple bred/double crossed inbred Red Nose bloodlined tiger stripe crocodile mouth bullyson pit.  Guaranteed to have 2300 lbs. PSI jaw pressure.  I test all my brood stock on a bite meter to measure the PSI of the jaw pressure.  And then I have my vet to engage the lock jaw mechanism to see if the pit will let go when lightning strikes.  All pups come with a 30 day supply of gunpowder and a breaking stick signed by Maurice Carver.

[redriverslim]

Slim, this is about the best post on these dogs I have ever seen put up. So much of the time I just gotta not say anything cause I just haven't got the time to try straighten out the myths and outright lies. Well done sir!

It's just plain aggravating, aint it?  That's an interesting story about you having Frisco for a minute.  I bought a pup off him after Garner bought the dog. I gave $300 back in 89 or 90.  Decent little dog I guess, but nothing more than garden variety.  And the pup I got was off a littermate sister to Hollingsworths Dolly (Mayday's mother).  Go figure.  That just goes to show that a bloodline does not always guarantee quality.  That's why I get so aggravated when someone says they got a Carver bred dog, or a Chinaman dog, Jeep dog, Boudreaux dog, etc.  Hell, that could mean anything, but it doesn't always mean GOOD. 

[tmatt]

Slim, there was a time when I was attempting to enlighten folks on the board about "gamebred" dogs and finally realized it just wasn't happening. Lol For some reason these folks that believe the myths and have the "gator mouths" just won't listen to the truth.

[Goose87]

I wish this convo was written in a book or somewhere, there so many folks who claim to be dog breeders who have no clue as to what their doing but yet flood the market with these "blooded" dogs. That is probably the most common sense way to put for folks to understand breeding.

[Treezbulldogz]

Some great posts, Slim. I'm just wondering why it makes you mad about the Jeep, Chinaman, Carver, etc... comment?    Not everybody knows that McCool dogs are down off of Carvers and not everybody would know what was meant if they say they have a "tab bred" dog and even fewer would know what somebody meant when they say they have a Earl Jr. bred dog. I prefer more specifics also but understanding that not everybody knows every single game dog that's ever been born, I can understand using general bloodlines. Then I take it a step further and ask "carver dogs through who?"

I'm just curious why it makes you mad, I mean no disrespect in my question. It's nice to know there's more real bulldog folks on here lol I was feeling lonely and hardly visit anymore because most talk on here is "red nose pit" talk haha.

[Reuben]

Treezbulldogz...I reckon when we mention a line of dogs and it is close up enough that it pertains then it is describing a bloodline that hopefully will possibly describe what your pup could possibly be one day...if it is a tight bred line with one great dog showing up 4 or 5 times up close and that great dogs sire and dam were great dogs as well, then that says a lot to me...instead of the pup possibly turning out great it is now more a
probability and not so much a
possibility...saying a pup is out of old
so and so bloodline, and the dogs from that line were from 30 years ago, and 7
or more generations back then that
pup probably will not  have any
relations to that line from that long
ago...some folks honestly will believe the line is alive and well...




back...we also have to consider many other things...the
different breeders since those great dogs might not have tknow the first thing about breeding better dogs but are counting on those names from way back when...

[Treezbulldogz]

I understand completely, maybe I should have worded my response different. I'll try to use my scenario instead of general scenarios.


I have a couple LG bred dogs. Very very few people outside of the REAL bulldog world have even heard of LG. LG's dogs are down off of Carver dogs. Sometimes when somebody asks how they are bred, I just say "carver bred dogs. "  I'm not sure why that would make somebody mad is what I'm saying. Not everybody knows of LG so alot of times I just say carver bred. Same with my Frisco bred dog, who all knows of Hotshot? Not many. So I just say a Frisco bred dog. Easier and less explanation unless it's needed. Does that mean that person doesn't know about how their dogs are bred? I say no.

[WayOutWest]

Treez, I try to gauge how much I need to explain before I say how mine are bred too. I have some LG stuff also and if I say I have Carver they all think McCool is the only Carver. I hate to try explain to those who have little hope of getting it. I have less patience the older I get. This board is about the only one where I even try to help new guys understand. And yes, thank goodness there are some very knowledgeable guys on here with the patience to explain some realities.

[Treezbulldogz]

Good deal, I'm glad I'm not the only one here who chooses when to be more specific and when it's not necessary. From talking with you, WOW, I do know you are one of the bulldog folks on here. I've said it before but I'll say it again, thanks for what you have done with the bulldogs. If it wasn't for you I wouldn't be feeding one of my LG dogs. I appreciate you, WOW. 

[redriverslim]

Some great posts, Slim. I'm just wondering why it makes you mad about the Jeep, Chinaman, Carver, etc... comment?    Not everybody knows that McCool dogs are down off of Carvers and not everybody would know what was meant if they say they have a "tab bred" dog and even fewer would know what somebody meant when they say they have a Earl Jr. bred dog. I prefer more specifics also but understanding that not everybody knows every single game dog that's ever been born, I can understand using general bloodlines. Then I take it a step further and ask "carver dogs through who?"

I'm just curious why it makes you mad, I mean no disrespect in my question. It's nice to know there's more real bulldog folks on here lol I was feeling lonely and hardly visit anymore because most talk on here is "red nose pit" talk haha.

You're right, Mad is probably a poor choice of words.  If something like that makes me mad, I need to get a life, lol.

[redriverslim]

I understand completely, maybe I should have worded my response different. I'll try to use my scenario instead of general scenarios.


I have a couple LG bred dogs. Very very few people outside of the REAL bulldog world have even heard of LG. LG's dogs are down off of Carver dogs. Sometimes when somebody asks how they are bred, I just say "carver bred dogs. "  I'm not sure why that would make somebody mad is what I'm saying. Not everybody knows of LG so alot of times I just say carver bred. Same with my Frisco bred dog, who all knows of Hotshot? Not many. So I just say a Frisco bred dog. Easier and less explanation unless it's needed. Does that mean that person doesn't know about how their dogs are bred? I say no.

That's a good example.  LG is a good friend of mine, I've known him for 25 years.  I had several LG dogs years ago and worked a couple dogs for him.  I bred to FLint a couple times and Trouble as well.  LG sent me a bitch to get a litter out of, it was either Thelma or Girlfriend I believe.  One of my favorite dogs I ever had was out of Trouble x Girlfriend.  I saw Tina, Leroy Brown, Flint, Son and lots of those dogs back in the day.  A funny story about LG's dogs.  My cousin and I had gone to LG's one Saturday afternoon to hunt some dogs.  We had a son of Diamond Jim's Luther (sired by Hyde's Satch) that we took down there to the baypen.  We were getting ready to leave and G-Man said . . "Do you young guys want to buy some good puppies for $250 a piece" ?  We took a look at them and they were in a pen, pretty colored white and brindles, etc.  We asked how they were bred and he said . . "they are out of my Little Man dog and my Miss Kim bitch".  We didn't recognize any famous dogs in the pedigree so we passed and told him we would get back with him later.  True story.  LG came to a BBQ I had at my house a couple years ago and we laughed about that story.

Best dog I ever had was a bitch named Lil Bobby out of Holland's Cadillac and Wiggles (wiggles was out of Leroy Brown x Tina).  DSK had a littermate to my bitch and they called him Pancho.  I bred Lil Bobby to WCC Ernie (Deacon x Joby) which I had on my yard for 2 years and got one male puppy that I named Fatboy.  I sold the dog as a half grown pup to Krazyside and I believe LJ got some good dogs off him, but not sure.

Another true story:  I used to go visit LG a lot when I would be working in Shreveport for a day.  He worked as sales mgr for a car lot at the corner of Lakeshore & Hearn.  We got to talking about Banjo one day and he said . . "Hell, I can show you a littermate to Banjo and BB across the street behind Church's Fried Chicken."  He said an old lady who lived across from the car lot had a littermate to Banjo in her back yard as a pet.                         

[redriverslim]

PS.  It was the breeding of Holland's Cadillac x DSK's Wiggles that produced my Lil Bobby gyp and DSK's Poncho and another one called Bush Doctor.  It was that breeding that got the LG x Redboy cross kinda started.  LG and B. Holland were always good buddies and LG had wanted a Redboy stud.  He got one from Holland out of Dead Eye Dick.  LG called his dog "Red Eye Rick".  I believe if you look back in some of those older LG breedings when he was crossing Redboy into them, you will see he also bred to a Redboy dog called Huckleberry.  I raised Huckleberry (who was out of Robinson's Apache) and sold him to Jeff Mason (the professional boxer from Chicago) as a 3 yr old.  Jeff and his 1st cousin (who was Montell Griffin) came to my house and bought Huckleberry and his 2 littermate sisters.  Montell Griffin had just beaten Roy Jones Jr. for the title, and he had dogs as well.  I'm pretty sure GMan bred to Huckleberry too, after Lil Jeff bought him.       

[Treezbulldogz]

I really enjoyed those posts, Slim, I sincerely thank you for sharing that. I could sit and listen all day long about the days before my time. I hate I was born in the early 80s lol I would have loved to be around in those days. You don't hear much at all about Mr. G so the insight you have it much appreciated by somebody like myself who likes LG dogs but got them from somewhere else. I know LG keeps to himself and is a smart man for doing so. Great line of dogs that have been kept close to the circle of folks who appreciate and work them. Again, I appreciate you sharing and I'm all ears  .

[redriverslim]

Those GMan dogs are about the purest old Carver dogs there are (if there is such a thing, lol).  GMan, McCool, Thibodeaux, J. Mayfield and Texas Ironman were the only people who had those dogs back in the day.  Before them it was T. Curry who had a lot of the old Carver dogs.  I believe Thibodeaux used to work dogs for the Currys if I remember correctly.  GMan got his dogs from Thibodeaux.  Thibodeaux was a farrier (and a crackhead) who worked at LA Downs racetrack.  If I remember correctly, GMan told me he traded a V6 engine for Miss Kim.  I remember Miss Kim and Little Man when they were on GMan's yard before they were famous.  Wish I would have loaded up on those dogs before they were famous.  Back then, nobody wanted GMan's dogs, me included.  Like I said, I could have bought pups out of Lil Man and Kim for $250, but the dogs were not known yet and had no reputation much.  I had a son of Jeep at the time and I thought I had the "cat's meow" just because he was a son of Jeep.  He didn't produce all that well.  I could have gotten a much better family of dogs for $250 a pup and just didn't know it.  GMan kept a yard full of them and hunted them hard and went through them until he developed a good strain of hog dogs.  I saw both Banjo and BB hunt, they were very good catch dogs, with BB being the best.  GMan never cared for the Banjo stuff much, as Banjo was sired by Sack and Sack quit a hog in the practice pen in short order. 

Like all bloodlines, there is good and bad, and not every dog is gonna make it just because they have "the blood".  I probably had 15 dogs off LG's yard at one time.  Not all of them were good.  But the ones that were good were long distance hog dogs with bottom and lots of hunt.           

[redriverslim]

As for the Carver dogs: . . . Anybody who has a Carver dog has absolutely no idea how the dog is bred when you get way back in the pedigree.  My best friend and dog partner of 25 years knew Carver very well and went to his place on several occasions.  He told me on one particular occasion, that there was a Mexican fellow there who had come up from Mexico with a van loaded with dogs.  Carver was taking the dogs out of the van and placing them on chains.  Carver may have known how the dogs were bred (or had some idea), but they were most likely some of his stuff he had sold the Mexicans crossed with Ed Crenshaw blood/ Stu Fowler/Red Lady/Morfin, etc.  Anyway, Carver would sell a man a good dog, and then make sure it was papered off something he had advertised at Stud.  I had several old timers who knew Carver very well, tell me that Carver was the best paper hanger there ever was.  If you watch the Mountain Man interview on Youtube, you will hear Mountain Man say the same thing.  He talks about how he had Carver send him a female to use as a brood gyp, and he figured that Carver had hung papers on the gyp, but he didn't really care because he knew Caver would send him a good dog.  Another good friend of mine, A. Harden, was close with Carver and he had purchased several dogs from Carver, one of them was Carver's Cowhide.  He said after Maurice had died, his widow Pat, called him and asked him if he wanted to purchase Stompanato, as she knew he had shown an interest in the dog and had dogs off Stompanato.  He drove to her place and said that she let Stompanato out of the house (he was a house dog) and that he ran through a yard of about 30 dogs, running loose, and went around sniffing females to see if any were in heat.  Stompanato then came back to the house and she opened the door and he went back inside.           

[Treezbulldogz]

A lot of what you just wrote I've heard before and believe it to be true because of so many with the same story. Especially about him hunting them hard and combing through them. That's one line that I hope doesn't end up being peddled like a lot of the others. I like the fact that not may know of them, that's how I hope it stays. I also heard BB was a bad bad girl, I would have loved to see those hunts. That is funny about the $250 a pup deal and passing lol.


If you don't mind me asking, Slim, do you still feed any LG dogs?

[Treezbulldogz]

Yesir! He would sell the cake but keep the ingredients separately. I don't agree with that practice but to each his own. At this point though, IMO, it doesn't make much of a difference as far back as the "carver" dogs really are. I know you know that, just saying I don't care. I focus on the dogs closer up as most do.

[redriverslim]

A STORY ABOUT OLD FAMILY REDNOSE

The Old Family Rednose dogs have a lot of myth behind them.  WayOutWest or others may know more about the OFRN so I would welcome any corrections if I get this wrong.  But I talked to my buddy this morning who was a protégé of Bob Wallace and here is what he said.  Most of the Old Family blood can be traced back to William Lightner of Louisiana and Jim Corcoran of Boston, MA.  Jim Corcoran came to this country from Ireland to fight the world bare knuckle boxing champ, John L. Sullivan around the turn of the century.  He stayed in Boston, MA and became a police officer, and sent for his dogs from the old country and his dogs helped start the red nosed line in the US.  I believe Feely's dogs may have had a lot of Corcoran influence, and he said that Bob Wallace's dogs had a lot of Corcoran in them in the 1930's and 1940's.  William Lightner stated that he could trace his line of rednose dogs back to his grandfather's dogs from before the Civil War.  But Lightner did not care for the red nosed dogs he had, because he said they were too big and he liked smaller dogs.  When Lightner left LA and moved to Colorado, he left his red nosed dogs with a man named Bourgeous in LA.  There was a fellow named Dan McCoy from the Amarillo, TX area.  He and Bob Hemphill from S. Carolina went to Bourgeous place and acquired the rednosed dogs that Lightner had left behind, and they split them up.  So McCoy was breeding them in Amarillo and Hemphill in Carolina.  That was it basically.  It was Dan McCoy who coined the phrase "Old Family Red Nose" as kind of a marketing term and a way to distinguish him and Hemphill's dogs from everyone else.  He said before that, nobody had ever heard the term Old Family Red Nose.  He said Bob Wallace acquired his Rednose dogs from these old Lightner dogs that were being bred by Hemphill, to cross into his Corcoran dogs, but a lot of Bob's dogs were black nosed dogs, brindles and some blacks (as WAYOUTWEST pointed out about Old Family not all being rednosed).  He also said that Bob Wallace purchased Searcy Jeff for $1,000 in 1937,  which was an unheard of amount of money in 1937.  He said that Wallace also searched out and acquired dogs bred off Ferguson's Centipede, that Earl Tudor had owned at one time.  But Bob only used these dogs for crossing into his existing family and wasn't really trying to be an OFRN breeder.  He said that by the time he met Bob Wallace in 1961, most of Bob's dogs had been turned Red/Red Nose by that time.  He also said that Wallace never wanted to be known as a breeder of rednosed dogs only, and said that Bob actually wrote an article for one of the magazines back then titled. . . "there is no magic in a red nose" . . or something like that.  I never knew any of that, as I always thought Bob Wallace was the Rednose Man.  

I got all this from a man who knew Wallace, Lightner, Hemphill all personally.  Just a little history of the Old Family Red Nose dogs that so many people are trying to find this blood.  All this stuff was happening in the 40's, 50's and 60's, so it's so far removed from what was being called the Old Family Rednose that in 2015, I just don't think there is really an OLD FAMILY line anymore.  I may be wrong.  

      
              

[redriverslim]

A lot of what you just wrote I've heard before and believe it to be true because of so many with the same story. Especially about him hunting them hard and combing through them. That's one line that I hope doesn't end up being peddled like a lot of the others. I like the fact that not may know of them, that's how I hope it stays. I also heard BB was a bad bad girl, I would have loved to see those hunts. That is funny about the $250 a pup deal and passing lol.


If you don't mind me asking, Slim, do you still feed any LG dogs?

No, I only have one bulldog, a direct son of Machobuck.  I haven't had a yard of bulldogs for many, many years.  I Stud this male out on occasion and will probably always have a bulldog around to feed and love on.  I just like em and can't see myself not having one or two around to admire.  I will go hog hunting on occasion and bring the catch dog for the group, but I sold all my yellow cur dogs a few years ago and don't go much anymore.  If you want to bring the heat, you ought to bring one of those GMan gyps and breed to Macho Sam.  He is the real deal.