Amerigo / Big White Dogs (BWD) started by Ugly Dog Ranch (UDR)

[uglydog]

coming back at with answers ASAP been busy, busy today

[RyanTBH]

These are just honest questions...
 
Not potshots...

I been round ab's fer while. And just embarked on similar scheme battle cross but my choice was to a 'gamebred' pibull (to go with current definition tho it was out of hog catching stock up close). ...and in the F-1 of the three that made it I have three distinct dif dogs.

One being really nice size and physically, and really good in the pack and on hogs at just over a year old.

One being a physical powerhouse and big and blocky but a bit hot if ya know what I mean but good on hogs and game and really just wants to bite something

One being kinda smaller and little slower to turn on, may be her environ also tho as its dif from other two, she more a family dog

Sure no I understand and agree... There are differences... The pups seem to be later starting dogs out of this line... I can't say I like it either, But I can't say we've tried to start them really early either... PJ turned on at about 7.5-8 months old and was hunting in the big woods at 9 months, but at 7.5 months was the first time I showed her a hog. Pretty sure Aaron and Courtney had Ice in the woods catching hogs around the same time frame as well. I think it's more caution than ability though... Making sure the dog doesn't get ruined on them before they're mentally and physically ready. With all dogs out of any of our breedings we run them through box/truck work, getting used to other dogs baying, lead/chain behavior, and all other factors of the hunting world before introducing them to hogs. My other male Dirt that is Ice's brother isn't hunting yet because he's been too puppy in the head, and we haven't had a hog that is worthy of him testing on... He'll be going to the woods to see his mamma in action soon to see if he's going to make the cut. I haven't heard of any, but I know there are culls out of all breeds/crosses... But I'm sure thinking he's got what it takes, but have to figure out a way to turn it on and get him to figure out that it's ok to do work, and not just be the pet he's been since he was born. In his defense, he's been my family pet, and I had him at my buddies with his family for some time too... So he's probably a little confused on what he's supposed to be doing right now. He's going through boot camp at he moment...

[blakebh]

If I may ask....

I'd like to know as well any pitfalls or downsides any of you have experienced from the cross?

No breed is all on 100%, esp, when crossing 'breeds' for working traits solely.

There has to be a bit of a cull factor.

Seems the further away from the original battle crossed dogs you get into line breeding some of these things may reat up.

Any glaring red flags or genetic type stuff come up that y'all are trying to pinpoint and breed away from?

First I would like to thank Thomas and Krystal for giving Ryan and I the avenue to aquire both Doddle and Kid. I keep both on my yard and really like their abilities as catch dogs and most of all just good family dogs. My wife and kids have really taken to them as well. I have kept bulldogs for almost 15 years now hunting or not and I really do like these Amerigos. I'm looked forward to keeping and raising a couple of these pups to see how they turn out. I have several out crosses to doodle and pj in mind in the future. A good young male AB of mine is at the top of my list if he turns out like I think he will.

This is his litter sister ped

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/american_bulldog/dog.html?id=2410919-jam-up-bulldogs-loca

 




Now to answer your question semmes, the only thing I have noticed with limited breedings from the line is some seem to start late. It may not be a downfall to some but I like them to start early. Not that the late startes can't make great catch dogs it's my personal preference.

[Reuben]

Blakebh...I can's see the pup the way I would like but what I see I like quite a bit...I also like the black nose and the dark eye...and I like early starters as well...

that pup is showing you now of the good things to come...as long as you do everything right she should only get better...

[blakebh]

Doodle has pretty much been my yard/catch dog since she has been here. She is also my favorite of the bunch.







I have really liked kid as a catch dog and all around good dog on the yard.







They both have truly been a pleasure to keep and work.

[uglydog]

I started on this late last night and all got deleted uggggg. So here goes, Maybe some the others can chime in if I leave something Out, or get a date/name wrong, as I have moved and old pics and info is all packed away, this is many moons ago


Captain at one year old one of My favorite pics of him, and one his first hogs caught
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154192039448626&l=30005ee1a8



Captain Morgan, was purchased from a newspaper ad along with litter mate Jake, in Clevland Tx area around Dec. 1998. by Thomas Rohan and his Brother as Catch Dog prospects. The lady thet met them offered paperwork on dogs the boys declined as Catchdogs don't need papers to catch hogs, so now You guys that say that all the time know why it gets under my skin. one of the Most solid nerved dogs, intelligent dogs I ever met, not just a catch dog, just a dog in general, genetic history was lost there on that day. Because Nobody would know what a contribution, or how this one dog could affect the future. I worked very hard to trace roots, found old newspaper and tried to find number talked to all Bulldog people from that area years later after I had worked with this dog as a grown animal in many areas besides hog hunting. I know most only want to know about why he was a great Hog Dog. I and many other can tell You this dog could handle any hog one on one, speed, power, brains most of all , and endurance. I like a dog with Brains and still the Heart to go at it anyway, othewords COURAGE.  I say Brains because I have yet to see few dogs that can be hold a nasty boar , while still aware of where his people are and swinging the hog around to keep the head aaway from You and spin the rear of hog to You to leg, this was not a few times but almost nearly every time not in a engrossed thicket. When not close this dog shouldered up to the hog to avoid taking hits and pulled hogs head down and backwards and showed dominance and control of some damn huge hogs, this is in the woods not in a pen. This will spoil any hunter, to have a dog this trustworthy. He did not rip tear or shake a hog, simply controlled one. Back in the day there used to be Competitions for catch dogs similar to how bay comps went on too. Captain would simply sit in heel position while calcutted as calm as could be, at time to release Thomas could lightly tap Captain on the head and tell him to get Out and off he came and No re-bites unless the hog went to get up, I would come up to find Thomas sitting on a hog tieing and Captain sitting next to him watching over his Daddy just in case, He was ready.  
My experiences with Captain, as a Dog besides catching are what really impressed me even more. A kennel full of females and going to have strays, I cold send this dog to catch strays, and no fight just hold and release, he would track, tree squirrel, and blood trail, retrieve birds, mother and clean newborn puppies (lick make bottle puppies pee and poo), and had him biting protection sleeve and close to level I Schutzund, all for fun, no club training although he would bite where needed, and steady nerved enough to allow anyone in that One of said was ok. I even raised a baby fawn that nuzzled and chased him around, this dog had No enemies, no aggression, was not hyper , coul;d take him anywhere anytime without batting an eye, I really couldn't find a hole in this dog.  What was wrong with this dog? I could not reproduce him, that's what, bred him over many females of all types reg. ABs, pit types, cur types, and then Lucy Lou the Dogo and even a pit/Rott cross, He had a bunch of offspring in this world. Some took similar physical type but not many until went with the Dogo cross. Most AB went very thick and heavy, and squattier legged, keeping that long back straight leg and high hip, was not multiplied. His intelligence hate to admit, there are some smart dogs but none IMO equal him. I gave that up many many years ago. He was once in a lifetime dog.

I will have to come back to other such Questions and answer stuff. real quick. NO HEARING ISSUES IN ANY OF THE DOG AS TO DATE THAT I HAD HANDS ON. I want to know to because I took this very serious. Skin issues with the Dogo crosses there were a couple of each litter that did have the hot spots, but not to the extremes, no allergies. My Smoochy was a bitch pup I KEPT and used as my dog. loved this bitch, damn good catch dog, loved her, and she was with me in public functions a lot because she loved children and people, and was calm and quiet natured all the time, so she was the Representative, she had the worst of the hot spots that popped up when I layed her off hunting, the more I used her the less issues, . As much as I adored this female and as many hogs as as She and I caught together in the woods, I never used her in the breeding program, with the skin issues,  I will come back later and try to address more.

[liefalwepon]

blakebh, does doodle run fluid? she looks a bit bully in the front end. the reason I ask is because I have a cross Ive been working up to that is very similiar. I have a brother and sister that are greyhoundxpit x dogo and I purchased a AMB about a year ago. Im getting ready to hunt him this winter and if he does well Im going to breed him to the female and keep all the females from the litter and breed the best one if shes really good to the male. the AMB that I have is bully in the front end but very few of the dogs in his line carry that trait. I dont know much about AMB but many look like they wouldnt have a fluid gait, but I might not be reading them right. Im trying to identify bumps in the road before I do the breeding, Ive been thinking about finding a different male with better conformation

[RyanTBH]

Thank you very much Krystal! Here is the picture that didn't post for some reason.

[blakebh]

blakebh, does doodle run fluid? she looks a bit bully in the front end. the reason I ask is because I have a cross Ive been working up to that is very similiar. I have a brother and sister that are greyhoundxpit x dogo and I purchased a AMB about a year ago. Im getting ready to hunt him this winter and if he does well Im going to breed him to the female and keep all the females from the litter and breed the best one if shes really good to the male. the AMB that I have is bully in the front end but very few of the dogs in his line carry that trait. I dont know much about AMB but many look like they wouldnt have a fluid gait, but I might not be reading them right. Im trying to identify bumps in the road before I do the breeding, Ive been thinking about finding a different male with better conformation

That pic is of her two days before she had pups. I think that's a lot of the reason for her looking a little bow legged. Doodle is very athletic and fast! She actually surprised me on how how agile and quick she was.

[RyanTBH]

blakebh, does doodle run fluid? she looks a bit bully in the front end. the reason I ask is because I have a cross Ive been working up to that is very similiar. I have a brother and sister that are greyhoundxpit x dogo and I purchased a AMB about a year ago. Im getting ready to hunt him this winter and if he does well Im going to breed him to the female and keep all the females from the litter and breed the best one if shes really good to the male. the AMB that I have is bully in the front end but very few of the dogs in his line carry that trait. I dont know much about AMB but many look like they wouldnt have a fluid gait, but I might not be reading them right. Im trying to identify bumps in the road before I do the breeding, Ive been thinking about finding a different male with better conformation

That pic is of her two days before she had pups. I think that's a lot of the reason for her looking a little bow legged. Doodle is very athletic and fast! She actually surprised me on how how agile and quick she was.

x2 on Doodle being fast!

Most of the dogs in the line that I've been able to see work, or in just see in person have fairly straight legs and a good gait. After speaking with Krystal and Thomas they wanted to make sure not to breed in the bowleggedness.

[uglydog]

Semmes, I will try to answer You from My opinion as what I have dealt with working the different breeds and making the first cross as to where the dogs are now after criss crossing the same lines back and fourth (not just breeds) now that they are no longer just as crossing two breeds and and mixing paint waiting to grow and see what You end up with. This has been a long term project. Many Years and Many good people that have been honest and trustworthy to use these dogs and kep in contact to give honest feedback has been the key to what has been going on with the dogs themselves. One person cant do it all themselves, testing, proving and pushing these dogs to find the flaws, to staw away from, to avoid the kennel blindness. James Reasoner, has been Essential at the many many discussions and keeping Us on track, whenever I may have started let My feet leave the ground, I THank Him and Everyone that has had these dogs and hunted them. Without James Reasoner taking Nickle/Pickle (nick names take over) from Me as a pup, pushing her and then taking the intrest in carrying forward this program, It would have most likely ended. Pickle produced Doodle, Karma, PJ and with that generation its going to last .

Back to subject. later starting dogs, Yes some of these pups mature slower, their minds take a little longer to develop and personally think they do not need any heavy hands or obedience just social skills and leash training, get them out around people take them with the famil or put them in the truck and take them ot places and let them be pups leave them alone, never need "training" many dogs need confidence building, and start on small pigs and watching, and a lot of keeping a dominant handle on them to keep them from being problem dogs. I feel like these dogs should be raised like golden retrievers until 9-10 months old and then let them see, because they will protect and want to work for their people, if they are not Over handled and pushed to be "super obedient" nearly opposite of what I do with a Pit.

Whats the benefits of this? These dogs "THINK" atleast earlier generations. I want the dogs capable of knowing and able to make the choices, and trust them to be able to choose the right way. This is not for everyone, but when Your ass in a bind, this dog can choose to let go of one hog and come after the hog that's got Your ass down or a bull, or whatever is problematic, not just chase off what is running because prey drive has kicked in a tiny brain. Yes they have prey drive, but it does not always overload them as does a Pit or many ABs. Some Dogos are too smart making them too soft and need a pack environment to finish a job, not all, some are more prey driven and really like the battle. These dogs as a blanket stement can handle both. They have good health at this time, good skin, good ears, good disposition, If You have to wait a few more months for them to "grow up" and develop that mind and have a dog with longevity for Your family, and a True Partner, then I believe its well worth it.  I have a passion for Dogs, working dogs of any kind, but I want Real dogs too, not fluff. Nobodys getting rich off marketing and selling these dogs that's for sure, Its a love for the partner You have, and the way the dog handles, and knowing they have Your back., They are not a dime a dozen dog from the pound as many like to think of Catch dogs.

Im not in the woods like I once was, I was there like nobodys business for a long time, it was because I wanted to work with My dogs, not kill hogs. I don't claim these dogs are perfect and in any line their will be some that need culling, I truly believe only the top of litter should be reproduced if at all, Not everybody needs one. I do believe these boys have their feet on the ground and can do right by what many of Us put the time behind and did the hard stuff that many other don't have the guts to do did, and will continue to cull when it needs to be done. If anybody wants to know more I will do my best to tell it like it is, and was.
 

[Indian Valley Ranch]

Krystal, I know this is a long shot, but I also picked up an AB female that was bred by some people in New Caney  with the last name Cherirox in Jan. of 99. She was my 1st female to breed over my foundation male Bo Jack. Was Captain a puppy or around 1yr old when Thomas bought him, ask him if that last name rings a bell, it's very uncommon? My female Blanca was a smaller version of Captain but almost identical in build and head piece. What makes me wonder is the fact that she was way above average intelligence and by far the smartest AB I've owned. I sent her to a friend who needed a companion dog after I got the litters I needed from her, and he misplaced her papers. Shortly after, I got my dogs registered but I never could track down her pedigree. It seems as though the Cherirox vanished from E TX. However, I did get a lead recently on some Cherirox dogs on a pedigree in France of all places. I plan to follow up on it with the NKC to see if I can fill in some blanks. It could be a total coincidence, but you never know. They seem like very similar dogs coming from the same area.

[Reuben]

blakebh, does doodle run fluid? she looks a bit bully in the front end. the reason I ask is because I have a cross Ive been working up to that is very similiar. I have a brother and sister that are greyhoundxpit x dogo and I purchased a AMB about a year ago. Im getting ready to hunt him this winter and if he does well Im going to breed him to the female and keep all the females from the litter and breed the best one if shes really good to the male. the AMB that I have is bully in the front end but very few of the dogs in his line carry that trait. I dont know much about AMB but many look like they wouldnt have a fluid gait, but I might not be reading them right. Im trying to identify bumps in the road before I do the breeding, Ive been thinking about finding a different male with better conformation

That pic is of her two days before she had pups. I think that's a lot of the reason for her looking a little bow legged. Doodle is very athletic and fast! She actually surprised me on how how agile and quick she was.

x2 on Doodle being fast!

Most of the dogs in the line that I've been able to see work, or in just see in person have fairly straight legs and a good gait. After speaking with Krystal and Thomas they wanted to make sure not to breed in the bowleggedness.

bowlegged is not a good trait if you want gait, speed and efficiency...way back I used to run my curs to test for speed and endurance (heart), and I noticed those that were bowed lacked in endurance...the speed might be there at the start but falls off rather quickly...

[RyanTBH]

blakebh, does doodle run fluid? she looks a bit bully in the front end. the reason I ask is because I have a cross Ive been working up to that is very similiar. I have a brother and sister that are greyhoundxpit x dogo and I purchased a AMB about a year ago. Im getting ready to hunt him this winter and if he does well Im going to breed him to the female and keep all the females from the litter and breed the best one if shes really good to the male. the AMB that I have is bully in the front end but very few of the dogs in his line carry that trait. I dont know much about AMB but many look like they wouldnt have a fluid gait, but I might not be reading them right. Im trying to identify bumps in the road before I do the breeding, Ive been thinking about finding a different male with better conformation

That pic is of her two days before she had pups. I think that's a lot of the reason for her looking a little bow legged. Doodle is very athletic and fast! She actually surprised me on how how agile and quick she was.

x2 on Doodle being fast!

Most of the dogs in the line that I've been able to see work, or in just see in person have fairly straight legs and a good gait. After speaking with Krystal and Thomas they wanted to make sure not to breed in the bowleggedness.

bowlegged is not a good trait if you want gait, speed and efficiency...way back I used to run my curs to test for speed and endurance (heart), and I noticed those that were bowed lacked in endurance...the speed might be there at the start but falls off rather quickly...

Correct and is exactly what I was getting at... Over the years of reading some of your posts Ruben, I've noticed you are very attentive to detail. That is very necessary in any breeding program. Have to look at all angles from all angles. If I could breed Doodle to PJ I would do it in a heart beat! It's kind of like me wanting to cross our two best dogs Fred and Zig together... Isn't gona happen... But we can double breed on each side and cross offspring together to get as close as possible. Idk... There are so many options when breeding, but they are cut short by what greatness rises to the top, if any, to be available and worth breeding.

[uglydog]

Indian Valley, No Captain and Jake were little pups. I can tell You there were two AB guys in that area that were very familiar with many types of the old lines, Scott, Painter and so on .  Roger Williams and Mitch Allison and either one of those guys might be a way to trace that name. I know Roger Williams in on FB and into protection dogs now or what I see pictures of from time to time, but I would be willing to bet He would be Happy to talk ABs and go back with You.

Semmes- reading back on some of Your other questions. about being "game" and "hot" If these dogs were "hot" I would Cull, I cant stand a dog that will get that way when in woods and need them to focus, the cur dogs get pissy, and need Your Bull to be level headed. My Pits I have had and all bull types have to be trustworthy around chickens cattle, and anythings on a farm environment. I believe that was original job to serve humans as a helper and be smart enough to do as needed. I think they should be bred that way again and wouldn't have so many issues

As Far as health, several died in the woods, and others lived into retirement, catching hogs until a ripe old age, still with good teeth and good health. The first crosses, some are still around, that first pic of Cotton not looking to spry, well because He is 10 years old, in pic, He still game to grab a hog, a little grumpy about other dogs bumping into him, but still loves little kids and babies. Zeus, Morgan, also lived to over ten years of age. Those dogs came into to the world not raised around children but everyone took to a human baby and dare you to try and hurt a kid in their presence. Smoochy would wrap her body around strangers kids and start watching for people to warn them off with her stink eye. Those things were born into these dogs not conditioned. Another trait I fell in love with, even though I think most kids should be fed to the gators. Now Karma she not as trustworthy of people of any age, just let her be and she will decide whom she will warm up too and that's fine. She handles For me, me only, all off lead, I can send her to catch my penned hogs and call her off because she jumps fences, and closed tailgates and goes where she wants when she wants, but she decides to do as I ask of her and she is well behaved. trees squirrels, reaches under my hens nesting and grabs snakes, and wont steal eggs or bother a bird, has enough sense to know what belongs and what don't belong and what is okay to kill and not. I put her vest and collar on and she acts like a wound up idiot when the dogs go to baying, and she going to fly in and catch like nobodys business. She is Doodles littermate. I picked for myself and keep now. This may seem odd, but welcome to come meet the dogs that are still alive, Im happy to show the dogs, and why I have them. The lack of physical limitations and the speed, I don't find necessary to do PennHip or OFA testing on these, like I do with My Catahoulas. Soundness in very important, as with every aspect in breeding dogs,

[liefalwepon]

Uglydog, they sound like really intelligent dogs, which is what I hear a lot of people say is missing in AMBs these days. I think they are all too often bred for brawn and not brain. Ive read a couple posts on ETHD about AMBs that can pen cattle and have better noses than curs and endurance for days and speed and I wonder where they are, and whos breeding for these traits. Its what got me planning this breeding ive been working up to. Most catch dogs out this way are just disposable heroes from the pound or craigslist. Im wanting to make a dog like you spoke of in that last post. I wish I had a better hogdoggin community out here, like you said a breeding project like you guys are working on cant be done alone. that karma and pj and captn k are like what Ive had in mind, thats something to be proud of

[Indian Valley Ranch]

Everyone I talked in the area said there wasn't anyone breeding true standard type dogs, mostly hybrids, what I do know of her pedigree was some performance bred sure grip dogs which I'm not aware of anyone else having around. Makes me wonder if this family moved into the area already having the dogs and then moved again. The NKC should be able to help me since I have some numbers to go by now with the pedigree from France. I just wanted to see if the name sounded familiar with you guys by chance it might have been the same breeder. You never know when a clue can be uncovered, I was content with the blanks on my pedigrees but all these years later, this fell in my lap talking to a bulldogger from France.

Congratulations to everyone involved in keeping this line of bulldogs going. It's not a small undertaking and requires a like minded group of people and lots of patience. I've had the pleasure of being around Zeus a few times and really liked him a lot, I'm sure he had no problems controlling a big hog.

[Semmes]

Thanks for the run down on the dogs Krystal.

Sounds like y'all got a leg up on pretty darn good family of catchdogs goin

[blakebh]

Pups are all doing great! Doodle has been a great mother so far.

[RyanTBH]