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KevinN
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« on: October 15, 2015, 08:27:55 pm » |
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I wasn't just picking or poking or trying to catch Oconee in some kind of bind...honestly....I'm intrigued by this subject.
I don't think I have the amount of land it would take to warrant cast hunting...not IMO anyway. Now...certain areas on my place I MAY turn the dogs out then pick them up and move just a little ways before I drop them and start walking or roading them...I guess that's kinda casting.
If I were to strictly cast on crossing points and known bedding areas or honey holes on my spots...knowing my dogs, it would go something like this:
Drop the dogs....sit and wait...when one or two have gone out 200-300 yards and returned (because that's about as far as they would go unless they hit a track) pick them up and move and do it again.
Would that be considered casting?
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"Let's talk some philosophy"
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Reuben
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« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2015, 08:41:28 pm » |
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casting out 2 or 300 yards and coming back is a little weak for me...I want the dogs to cover some ground and if I don't travel they will go further out...and as many hogs as there are they will strike something...
as we hunt and the dogs tire they will stay closer until they start smelling hog sign...
I take into consideration the dogs fitness, the heat and how long they have been running etc...etc...
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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oconee
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« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2015, 12:35:48 am » |
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This is a VERY preference based question. I have honestly owned dogs I could not get back until they bayed a hog or I tackled them crossing a road. That dog ABSOLUTLY produced not one bit more pork than the dogs I hunt nowadays and they never leave my sight. The area I hunt has plenty of hogs but they are not everywhere and its not a uncommon for me to unload my dogs in a spot presently vacant on a hog for a square mile. The hogs move and sometimes they"re in the area and sometimes they're a mile or more away. Thats just how it is and I don't enjoy sitting on the tailgate waiting on a dog to hunt out an atea thats completely vacant so I spend my time riggin and looking for tracks in efforts to cover more country. I do occasionally check potential hot spots or historically good thickets and when I do this I want my dogs with me and I will put them in the area I want to check out. It does me no good to drop a dog and watch him go 1000 yds in a direction I KNOW is VERY unlikely to produce a hog when I could take him to a thicket 300 yds the other direction that may hold hogs. Now this is a vague description of my mindset but maybe it will make some sense. I have gotten lucky blind casting around here from time to time but I'd much rather spend my time looking for a track at one of the hundreds of historical crossings I've hunted for years. Its 6 on way and half dozen the other but its sure feels good when you find that big track and watch your dog stick his nose in it and leave out like he was shot out of a gun. Like I said, its all preference, some like to sit and wait for a deep casting dog to hunt out a big area. I honestly think in these parts a guy would be just as successful both ways and in a year of hunting have just about the same amount of time invested in the same amount of hogs. Its up to how you want to spend your time hunting. Take care and happy hunting guys.
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Bo Pugh
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« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2015, 03:19:04 am » |
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I like cast hunting and I like to ride around and look for a track. I consider them different things and some people consider them the same thing. When I cast it depends on the dog and dogs I turn loose together as to how far they make a loop or go. I've learned I've got 3 that cannot be on the ground at the same time it's real hard to get them back if they don't get on something quick so if I take them three I either cast 1 of them and hold two or find something I know they can smell so they won't go so far before they might hit a track and I have one young dog I started hunting a little bit last year and a buddy of mine hunted him for me some he dont care what's on the ground with him he's going do his own thing and not look back or wait on anything to go with him I don't think he even starts hunting til he hits 2 miles deep I got to get him after deer season and slow him down a little, I think if you cast hunt it takes a independent dog that likes to hunt by itself that makes the best but that's only my .02. And if you want deep hunting cast dogs you have to only hunt them like that and don't let them stay around or they make it a habit. I enjoy turning them loose and watching them leave out like their on a mission. But to answer your question yea that would be considered cast hunting stopping and dropping the dogs and waiting til they come back and picking them back up
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Reuben
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« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2015, 06:13:21 am » |
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I know what you are saying Oconee...too much range is not good...every time I casted out my mt curs I worried about how many miles they would run a hog, cross a hiway, or bay up in someone's ranch that would shoot my dogs...or bay up in a neighborhood...but that is how I bred them for years...and sometimes these dogs would go as far as needed to catch hogs and as long as they could run they would stay in hogs...some actually would die from heat stroke...these type were a pain in the rear due to them hunting for themselves...I kept those on leash until I wanted them out...a certain amount of independence is needed but too much and they won't honor another dog...
right now I probably hunt once or twice a month and I don't turn my 3 dogs loose until the other hunters dogs strike then I turn mine in...or...if they don't strike in a decent time frame I turn mine out and they will usually go find one...when I get my pups up and running I will look for my own place even if I have to pay for the right place...
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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oconee
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« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2015, 02:00:02 pm » |
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I can clearky see how a guy could believe everything in that video because it makes good sense and although I honestly think that system could work well I don't think it would work for a very high precentage of dogs. The one thing he never touched on was the breeding or the genetic make-up of the dogs we choose to hunt. I have NEVER and will NEVER place more value on training than I do breeding. I want dogs that naturally preform to my desire and those are the ones that I will breed to carry on the life of my hunting operation. I FIRMLY believe that all dog training is complete when the puppies are whelped. Yea sure a guy needs to correct undesirable actions and trash problems but how deep the dog hunts, how cold of a nose he has, how much bottom he has, how gritty he is, and ect. ect. Is clearly a product of breeding and can be passed on through careful selection in the breeding program and should be. The problem with my theory is it takes a few generations of VERY STRICK selection and culling to see the consistency desired and not many are dedicated enough to breed long enough and strick enough to get to the point where they can see the positive fruits of the process. Dog training has its place but someday I hope to be able to produce high precentages of dogs that suit me without having to brainwash them. To each their own and this rambling in nothing more than my OPINION.
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Reuben
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« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2015, 02:41:04 pm » |
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I can clearky see how a guy could believe everything in that video because it makes good sense and although I honestly think that system could work well I don't think it would work for a very high precentage of dogs. The one thing he never touched on was the breeding or the genetic make-up of the dogs we choose to hunt. I have NEVER and will NEVER place more value on training than I do breeding. I want dogs that naturally preform to my desire and those are the ones that I will breed to carry on the life of my hunting operation. I FIRMLY believe that all dog training is complete when the puppies are whelped. Yea sure a guy needs to correct undesirable actions and trash problems but how deep the dog hunts, how cold of a nose he has, how much bottom he has, how gritty he is, and ect. ect. Is clearly a product of breeding and can be passed on through careful selection in the breeding program and should be. The problem with my theory is it takes a few generations of VERY STRICK selection and culling to see the consistency desired and not many are dedicated enough to breed long enough and strick enough to get to the point where they can see the positive fruits of the process. Dog training has its place but someday I hope to be able to produce high precentages of dogs that suit me without having to brainwash them. To each their own and this rambling in nothing more than my OPINION.
OCONEE...you hit a home run that time... |
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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jstankus
Bay Dog
 Offline
Posts: 99
Cracker Curs
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« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2015, 04:45:10 pm » |
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Yes, I agree. I have learned a lot the past three years and know there is much more to be learned. I haven't started breeding yet but I plan on next year if everything goes as planned. I was hoping my cracker cur gyp and BMCxredbone cross would make some goods ones. I also have some good cracker cur males to breed to also.
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l.h.cracker
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« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2015, 06:50:52 am » |
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I completely agree Oconee breeding is everything if the dog comes from short range dogs its virtually impossible to train that dog to hunt deep.The dogs I select are breed to hunt the way I like and very little situational training is required a good hunting dog is preprogrammed to hunt the way his ancestors hunted.
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Wisdom is something you get right after you need it.
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l.h.cracker
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« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2015, 07:15:26 am » |
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Occasionally I cast hunt if the area that I want to check isn't that big or if I want to check one area then skip to the next we do this from a boat generally and I will still get out and walk around a bit to look at the sign.Wed night we caught a small bar doing this pulled up to the spot dumped the dogs they hunted for about an hr caught the hog and moved down river. We never got more than 200 yds from the boat but the dogs covered probably 600acres before finding the bar.
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Wisdom is something you get right after you need it.
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Reuben
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« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2015, 08:00:32 am » |
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I completely agree Oconee breeding is everything if the dog comes from short range dogs its virtually impossible to train that dog to hunt deep.The dogs I select are breed to hunt the way I like and very little situational training is required a good hunting dog is preprogrammed to hunt the way his ancestors hunted.
I totally agree with this as well...a hunting dog is born...we as dog handlers can do the right things at the right time to make them even better...in the wrong hands one can ruin a good dog... a hunting dog is born... |
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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oconee
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« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2015, 08:27:09 am » |
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Reuben I have respect for your opinions and I know it seems like I'm commenting on every comment you make with a different opinion but its not that I don't agree, its more like I disagree "a little." Ha ha ha
Having said that I don't believe we as handlers can do anything (other than normal exposure to desired game and correction) to help a dog. I will completely agree that we can and I have personally ruined dogs by negative training and thats precisely why I don't try to train dogs anymore.
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bigo
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« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2015, 10:17:31 am » |
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You can't train a dog to want to hunt and find game, that part has to be bred into them, but you can train the distance and the way they hunt. I've done it for 50 years, so you can't tell me it can't be done. I've taken dogs that hunt too deep and shorten them up and dogs that wanted to make short rounds and check back in, hunt out further and not check in. If the dogs I bred and trained came back after 45 minutes to an hour, I was sure that whole area I was in held no hogs. I could also send them into an area I wanted to check out instead of having to walk in there. I have pulled up to a creek and send dogs up the creek and dogs down the creek and catch hogs with both sets. You just have to stay on your toes and correct things before they become habit and never stop training.
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The older I get, the better I was.
If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principle difference between a dog and a man.
Mark Twain
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oconee
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« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2015, 12:18:10 pm » |
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The reason you been training dog for 50 yrs is because you are content to do so. The trained dogs your breeding, their offspring has to be trained too!
It is VERY VERY VERY tough to only concentrate on the VERY FEW naturals that come along and breed them and only use the "naturals" from that cross and find another suitable "natural" mate for them offspring and so on and so on.........
I'm not saying you can't train dogs to hunt deep but I will guarantee you will have better success if you kill them daddy didn't marry mommys that don't hunt deep instead of training them. JMO
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bigo
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« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2015, 12:52:35 pm » |
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Let me see if I've got this straight. You only breed naturals that will hunt deep but train them to stay with you 'till you find them a track or walk them in to hogs. You also said a handler could do nothing to help a dog to get better except exposure and correction, yet you train them to hunt a certain way. You will have to forgive this old dumb redneck but I think your full of bull-hockey. Every time you say something you contradict yourself.
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The older I get, the better I was.
If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principle difference between a dog and a man.
Mark Twain
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Reuben
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« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2015, 01:01:12 pm » |
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I totally agree with BigO...a hunting dog is born...that is true but we can guide them to do better...more of or less of depending on how we want to mold/hunt our dogs...
to get a dog to range further spend more time in one spot and the dog will get wider because he wants game...after the first loop stay put and they will loop wider and the next loop...shorter range move when he comes through after the first loop...
colder tracks...wait on the dog to get it going or to give it up...even help him to try and work it out...
if you want the dog to run hotter tracks don't wait on the dog...he will learn to leave the colder tracks alone...A well bred dog that is a good representative of the strain/breed is a pleasure to work with...
I once had a yard full of dogs of this type...bred them myself but I started out with some good dogs...so the credit does not come to me...I just purified it a little more and raised the percentage of good pups produced...
OCONEE...I do not see you as being contradictive to me other than you are having a slight difference in our beliefs which is what makes the world go round and round and that is a good thing...I do offer solutions to me beliefs because that is how I have done it...you can go back to my original posts here and you will see that my training and breeding practices have never changed since day one...so it is fixed deep in my brain and it will take quite a bit to change what I believe...lol
but just a very simple example as to what I mean which I do not think you will disagree with...I call it training and conditioning and you probably see it as an expectation and does not qualify as training in your book....and I see it as an important detail and as training...and that is...socializing the pup...because if the pup does not receive the PROPER socialization then it will fear humans and that will be a big hindrance to you and your hunting dog...so that will not bring out the best from within your dog...
once upon a time as a youngster I trained to sit, stay, and heal as well as for other things...after a while I realized it was not that important to me...how I mostly train now does not look like training...I am a believer in efficiency...just doing the right things at the right time as often as possible and with good dogs it is very doable...we do agree on the fact that we can't train a dog that does not want to hunt to hunt...
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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oconee
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« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2015, 01:10:42 pm » |
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No your just so pissed at me that you don't use reason before you put words in my mouth. First of all EVERY dog you turn loose will hunt deeper than I want (out of sight) therefore I HAVE TO bring back everyone i start because thats my style. I could not possibly cull for dogs that hunt out of sight because I would be forced to cull them all. Now on the other hand if I was you and wanted my dogs deep (and we all know they don't all hunt deep) then I would tighen up my culling and breeding in that direction and not spend so much time training. Because I KNOW (whether you will admit it or not) that they don't all come around to your training and some still don't ever hunt deep enough. Now tell thats a lie!!! You can't and therefore your forced to do some culling yourself despite your master training skills. Its up to you whether you want to train and then cull or cull then hunt what suits you, I prefer leaving the training to the pros like you. Look the fact that my opinion offends many will not change it and I do not look to change anyone else's opinion that I don't agree with but don't treat me like I'm dumb to raiseing, starting, and hunting hog dogs because our ways and opinions differ. Good day and take care.
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oconee
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« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2015, 01:23:51 pm » |
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Ok Reuben I will back off my original comment and agree that the smaller aspects of starting pups (socialization and ect.) does qualify as "training." My opinion is that the traits and abilities I hold against the dogs life (mental toughness, drive, desire, trailing Instinct, grit, and etc) cannot be trained to my satisfaction.
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Pwilson_10
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« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2015, 01:44:00 pm » |
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Alvin I think thes guys need to go hunting with u I bet they change there minds real quick and get all this number 2 understood cuz sometimes I think ur getting ur words messed up and mean one thing then they take it a different way that's what it seems to me and I know them dogs of urs ain't no bull number 2 I think it just needs to come done to showing them instead of talking about it cuz even my self some times don't now what to think when u say somthing but then I get what ur trying to say NOT BEING RUDE OR TO ANY ONE OR POINTING FINGERS WHAT EVER ANY ONE WANTS TO THINK
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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