Running Catch Dogs

[Black Streak]

Lol I had no doubts he wasn't bad guy.   I also believe he has exceptional dogs and a strong desire for excellents.    I just hate when he isn't so humble.    So I tell him his dogs can only do half what others on this forum can do when he starts saying he has HOG DOGS while the rest of us don't.      When you make broad statment like that it ain't good.       As far as my personal belief in the man, his technique and his dogs, i believe he is probably  really good and his dogs are probably very very good but I hate arrogance.   I had an avenue to try to put a little humility in him is all.    He described his approach to hunting his dogs and I thought he was talking about how I hunt my dogs it was so similar.     Enough of the sweet talk though because I know he fixing to try to back a hand me for this lol

[l.h.cracker]

I hunt with Rcds my Curs catch as well but I have 3 true Rcds 2 are leggy big pits and one is a AB cross all three will wind,trail and find there own hog.I have good luck with them if they find one its done and if the Curs find one they're going to catch anyway so I like to have a heavy weight running loose to help them out. Many people don't like this style of hunting but it suits me well.

[Black Streak]

I don't  have what most refer to on here as RCD's.       What I have (most of what I have) are finder holders.   They don't bark or hesitate to catch.    Their is no bay dog blood in their lineage only breeds of dogs in their background that are hardwired as straight catch.          It is my opinion that is why Dogos are largely so iffy and not consistent as a whole as solid catch dogs.   Their breed is comprised of a few different dogs that are not catch dogs. However, lot of them are great catch dogs but many are not.     From what I've read on them, they were developed to hunt in the same similar style I hunt my dogs though.
 

I agree...a dog that catches sometimes and bays at other times is not a catch dog...and a 50/50 chance of getting a catch dog is not good odds...I feel the same about stock dogs...not saying there aren't good ones out there but I want to up my chances of having a top hunting dog...

Changing gears I saw years ago that the future hog dog will be more of the RCD or holder types out of necessity ...and silent dogs to keep from waking up the residences that are popping up all over the country side...the land tracts/ranches are getting smaller...I want dogs of the type I like but with enough grit to operate almost as running catch dogs...with the GPS technology it is doable...keeping the races quiet and as short as possible is the future...actually in lots of cases the future is now...

Yes they are very ideal for many things.   In my opinion and knowing them the way I do, I can not think of a more versatile hog dog.       I don't see this kind of hunting dog to be appealing to most people though.     I think people are curious about them but i don't see them converting to this style of dog.  For two main reasons.  First is a bay in the woods is fun and exciting  and gets you all fired up when leading the catch dogs to it.    Finder holders don't have that element of excitement to them in the woods.   It's just  reading your dogs, listening for squeeling or two silent warriors going at it and only sound you here is the lock up and breaking branches if they are fairly close, or looking at the gps.    Not near as exciting as a bay for most people.    The second reason why I think people would be reluctant to hunt with this style is because letting the catch dogs run loose is crazy talk to most folks.    Goes against everything they have ever been taught and what their nightmares are of. ( I exaggerated that last little bit to make my point)   plus who would leave their strike dog they have so much faith in, at the house and just go hunting with their catch dogs running around on the ground like curs.      Would be really really hard for people to do.     I know because it was for me, but i seen its potential and I knew the only way it would work was to not half azz it by using them as RCD's running down with a few curs.    When i went all in the first couple times it was nerve racking as it could be for me, but with the success I had, my confidence in the style grew.     Now I veiw it as the safest way you can catch a pig.     
   Finder holders are not all the same.    Their are long range dogs and short range dogs, fast dogs and dogs just fast enough.  You just got to know what produces what.      Danes are likely to produce long range finder holders that can hold pigs much longer than you would ever imagine.    You don't want to go the pure Dane route if you want to hunt small tracks of land because they are prone to being long range dogs.    Having a pig caught way off scares the pants off people and rightfully so but not totally a thing nightmares are made of if you have a dog that's very capable and built for holding a big boar for a long long time by himself IF, the boar was caught where he was found and not allowed to run to a prefered spot to make his stand.    Their are more to the finder holders than what people imagine, they aint all from the same mold.     Pits can do a fair job if run as finder holders.   They have decent nose to them, just not many people allow them to use their nose.    The pit however is not well suited for holding a big boar the way a good finder holder is because of the height and length.    They should be protect much farther back than a taller dog with a longer neck.   This longer vests restricts some mobility but also traps in heat.   Finder holder needs to keep its cool lol.         I've run my pit with my finder holder pups and had her find and catch pigs first so it certainly can be done.   Pits are an amazing dog in my eyes.   I love mine very very much.       
    When i say it's bad business to run finder holders down with curs, I'm painting with a very broad brush which almost always makes a fool of you.     Example,  how do the guys like Peel and Cracker run RCD's with curs or their catch dogs and be so successful at it.     Well their curs are like RCD's already.     They are more like catch dogs than bay dogs so they are essentially hunting so close to the same style dogs i am, that it works and works really well.      If you run a catch dog on the ground with just normal curs, you in for a heartache.       The manner in which RCD's are paired with other dogs either works well or gets them killed along with others of the pack.    Same as my dogs, Peel or Cracker could incorporate one of my dogs into their pack and I wouldn't think much of it but I'd hit my knees if one of my dogs was on the ground with the average gritty type cur.     
    Earlier I mentioned my dogs are not as fun in the woods to hunt pigs with as bay dogs were, BUT what's exillerating to witness is these dogs doing crop work.    Now that ain't nothing but fun and excitement if you can see it all unfold.       
    A few guys might really see the potential of this type of dog and this type of hunting and how it might benifite them and their circumstances though.      There is another reason people see the potential of this type of dog but no need in discussing that here.
  In summary,  I don't see to many people giving up what they are confident in and commit to using these dogs they way they are intended because using these dogs responsibly takes a huge leap of faith, and because bays are more fun in most situations.     
    Hope you enjoyed my ramblings lol

[Shotgun wg]

I run a ridgeback x pit. He is a dog that will find run and catch any hog  he comes across. I run him full vest any time he is on the ground. I run rough catchy dogs with him. He will initiate the catch and hold the others will get in and help. The others will hold with him but without him won't catch big hogs unless the right opportunity presents itself. 200 down they will catch. I never run more than 1 loose dogs with my rough dogs. Then it's only because when their mouth is full they can't bark. I am of the mind if u are gonna run the type of dog I run it is best to run all rough to catchy dogs or all loose. I feel that one rough to catchy dog or a RCD with loose dogs is asking for trouble. I can run my RCD one out if needed but prefer to put his main back up on the ground with him at a minimum. I have seen the 2 of them hold a 200 pounder for over 45 min while we made our way in. I also do my best to stay 400 yards or so of my RCD because those long hikes gives too long for problems to happen. . 


Shotgun
Arkansas

[Reuben]

I run a ridgeback x pit. He is a dog that will find run and catch any hog  he comes across. I run him full vest any time he is on the ground. I run rough catchy dogs with him. He will initiate the catch and hold the others will get in and help. The others will hold with him but without him won't catch big hogs unless the right opportunity presents itself. 200 down they will catch. I never run more than 1 loose dogs with my rough dogs. Then it's only because when their mouth is full they can't bark. I am of the mind if u are gonna run the type of dog I run it is best to run all rough to catchy dogs or all loose. I feel that one rough to catchy dog or a RCD with loose dogs is asking for trouble. I can run my RCD one out if needed but prefer to put his main back up on the ground with him at a minimum. I have seen the 2 of them hold a 200 pounder for over 45 min while we made our way in. I also do my best to stay 400 yards or so of my RCD because those long hikes gives too long for problems to happen. . 


Shotgun
Arkansas

I agree with your logic...years ago I had one loose dog that let me know where the dogs were caught on a hog...back before I had telemetry...

[TheRednose]

years ago the greyhound folks were concerned that the dogs had become shy and skittish and many had lost the high prey drive...A geneticist was hired to fix the problem and after doing his research he found that the english bulldog was the fix...he did make one mistake...he said it was going to take 3 to four generations to see good results...it actually to the first cross to see results...I new could figure out why it was a dog so different from the greyhound to actually be the fix...but as I learned more about dogs and breeding I have developed a theory...the English bull dog deviates so far from the norm that it would take much to get him pulled back in to what is more normal...so the traits exhibited must be mainly made up of a bunch of recessive genes paired up together...
I like the idea of game bred leggy pitbull x greyhound...have seen them years back in south texas...looked like greyhounds on steroids...

I read a post about this on a racing greyhound board posted by a Vet. But in his he actually said it was a pitbull terrier I think or maybe english bull terrier I don't remember or maybe I am remembering wrong. But either way it makes sense and they said it worked really well. They saw a big change in the F1 but really saw the best dogs a couple of generations in if I remember right.

In reference to this on a hunting show, they went to New Zealand and they hunted with a guy who's living was catching wild pigs. He only used two dogs and they were both a mix of cur, whippet and pit bull terrier. Smaller in size looked to be around 30-40 lb's and really fast. Very interesting the different style regardless.

[Black Streak]

I have no experience with greyhounds, only what I've learned by research and been told by people I feel like give good information.         I've been told that one semi decent hard grey bred to another might not produce dogs that would kill a rabbit but would run one and catch it,  just might not kill them.   I found that interesting.
   A greyhound is the fastest dog alive as the breed goes BUT they can't keep that pace up for long distances.   They have very little stamina.      After a grueling run for a greyhound, their energy is zapped and zapped for a while. Coupled with this, their  bones are light and thier skin is thin.     Why would you want to cross this dog to be and RCD when the planes states are full of stags guys breed specificly for running down and killing coyotes.   They are almost greyhound fast but have more stamina, thicker skin, heavier denser bones, are bigger more powerful dogs that are bred with the specific purpose to kill stuff that fights back.     Plus their is no show stock because they aren't a recognized breed thank goodness, but are a very old breed bred for that have been kept in the hands of people who work them.and USUALLY breed best to best for their hardness, speed, and endurance.      Plus they are all intact males and females and are easy to get.      So my question is, why do some go the route of crossing a greyhound to thier dog in order to get an rcd and not cross a stag instead?     

[WayOutWest]

I suspect the lack of stamina comes from the present use and breeding practices. They are only run at short distances anymore so have rewarded sprinters by breeding them. My Dad and Uncle hunted fox in N.Dak. with them in the 50's and 60's and the dogs back then had no issues with long runs and killing a fox. I have some very fond memories of going with them when I was a lil tyke. I guess it may be that they just trained their dogs with more stamina in mind. But my Dad says they had no issues with runnin a fox down no matter how long it took. I remember at times they would go down a hole and they would get a roll of barb wire and run it down the hole till the fox was snarling and then twist it until they could pull the fox out. The hounds would kill it quick. Back then there was a bounty and they weren't selling hides. But I agree with you on their being better breeds like the stag for present day crosses.

[Black Streak]

I suspect the lack of stamina comes from the present use and breeding practices. They are only run at short distances anymore so have rewarded sprinters by breeding them. My Dad and Uncle hunted fox in N.Dak. with them in the 50's and 60's and the dogs back then had no issues with long runs and killing a fox. I have some very fond memories of going with them when I was a lil tyke. I guess it may be that they just trained their dogs with more stamina in mind. But my Dad says they had no issues with runnin a fox down no matter how long it took. I remember at times they would go down a hole and they would get a roll of barb wire and run it down the hole till the fox was snarling and then twist it until they could pull the fox out. The hounds would kill it quick. Back then there was a bounty and they weren't selling hides. But I agree with you on their being better breeds like the stag for present day crosses.

I just got done wrighting a little response on the Resting Dogs thread in the general discussion that gives a big insight as to why certain breeds are suited for long distance and endurance and why some arent.      You might find it interesting.   It is just a little snippet to the data and information I have but it's enough to get see actually why certain breeds are better suited for certain types of efforts rather than just speculating to the best we can.

[WayOutWest]

I have been involved with the APBT for over 35 yrs and couldn't agree with you more on that muscle type. If that dog does not have those long lean muscles he is gonna be a short term prospect. All the conditioning in the world will not overcome the wrong body type. Look at the top human runners. Sprinters and marathoners could not be built more different.

[Black Streak]

Yes indeed!  Very well said sir

[Reuben]

WayOut/Blackstreak...both of you make good sense to me...

I also new of a man who was my uncles neighbor who ran greyhounds back in the 1960's...I don't know what he ran but they were used for hunting...coursing jack rabbits is what I believe his dogs caught...his dogs were sturdy looking fairly muscled...

but I did not know about the finer bone and thin skin until I read that here on this site...so as usual I have to develop my own theories as to the possibilities of why this is so...it is very possible that this has come about due to the racing of the greyhounds...the competition is fierce and it comes down to splitting hairs as to who wins day in and day out...splitting hairs for the racing greyhound in my mind probably involves thinner coat for better movement and less weight...finer bones for the same reason...so racing against a thicker coated dog of the same size will have more weight especially if the bones are more dense as well...so if the finer boned and thinner coat dogs consistently win then those are the ones that get bred to produce more racing champions...and this could be happening without anyone realizing this issue or maybe it is a known fact...pure speculation on my part without any research whatsoever...

they greyhound is more like the cheetah...one of the fastest dogs around but only for a short distance...the cheetah is the fastest animal known to man but he is also short ranged...

does anyone have any theories or facts as to why?

[WayOutWest]

To my way of thinking, it is pretty simple. When you breed for one thing, speed, you race at relatively short distances and none of the other attributes of the dog matter. You lose that ruggedness that hunting dogs had in a hurry. It doesn't matter what kind of animal, man has steered them one way or the other to suit his needs or what he thinks his needs are. Not everyone breeding has the animals best interests in mind. Horse racing has produced fast horses but they break down pretty quickly much of the time. It's why so many go to stud early. $$$$$$$$$ not what's best for the big picture.

[Black Streak]

Ruben you and WayOutWest are both right the way I have come to learn about the greyhounds.        Their are a lot of greyhounds that get hurt now days and from my understanding their racing careers are normally short lived.   I'm very sure it has a lot to do with their fine bones.      Your very right on splitting hairs.    An ever so slightly slower dog that's more durable  might not ever win a race even though it's in my options a better animal but if I was a racer/breeder in pursuit of that purse, that better slower dog I like right now would be a cull to me then lol.   And after my faster dogs hurt themselves they would probably meet the same fate as the slower dog.    Sent to the greyhound rescue centers of course lol.       

[Silverton Boar Dogs]

Thin skin dissipates heat from the body quicker than thick skin. Also circumference of bone does not necessarily directly correlate with bone density, and therefore strength. The most important thing about bone in a dog is that the bone lengths are in the correct ratio to each other to produce speed, lateral dexterity, and soundness.

[Reuben]

more than likely many of these traits evolved through selection of the winners and not a conscious  selection for these particular traits...winners are/were the ultimate truth as to what should be bred...and the facts that are known now about what makes a great racing hound have been studied after those facts...winners are made through proper selection out of racing winners, better breeding practices, training and diet etc...
racing dogs are bred for just that and of course breeding for other work requires a certain amount similarities yet very different type of dogs...

the information below I copied from a website...

Due to the Greyhound's unique physiology and anatomy, a veterinarian who understands the issues relevant to the breed is generally needed when the dogs need treatment, particularly when anesthesia is required. Greyhounds cannot metabolize barbiturate-based anesthesia as other breeds can because they have lower amounts of oxidative enzymes in their livers.[36] Greyhounds demonstrate unusual blood chemistry, which can be misread by veterinarians not familiar with the breed; this can result in an incorrect diagnosis.[37] [3]

Greyhounds are very sensitive to insecticides.[38] Many vets do not recommend the use of flea collars or flea spray on Greyhounds if it is a pyrethrin-based product. (See Dog fleas.) Products like Advantage, Frontline, Lufenuron, and Amitraz are safe for use on Greyhounds and are very effective in controlling fleas and ticks.[39]


 


 Illustration of the Greyhound skeleton
Greyhounds also have higher levels of red blood cells than other breeds. Since red blood cells carry oxygen to the muscles, this higher level allows the hound to move larger quantities of oxygen faster from the lungs to the muscles.[40] Conversely, Greyhounds have lower levels of platelets than other breeds.[41] Veterinary blood services often use Greyhounds as universal blood donors.[42]

Greyhounds do not have undercoats and thus are less likely to trigger dog allergies in humans (they are sometimes incorrectly referred to as "hypoallergenic"). The lack of an undercoat, coupled with a general lack of body fat, also makes Greyhounds more susceptible to extreme temperatures (both hot and cold); because of this, they must be housed inside.[43]

Anatomy[edit]

The key to the speed of a Greyhound can be found in its light but muscular build, large heart, and highest percentage of fast-twitch muscle of any breed,[44][45] the double suspension gallop and the extreme flexibility of the spine. "Double suspension rotary gallop" describes the fastest running gait of the Greyhound in which all four feet are free from the ground in two phases, contracted and extended, during each full stride.[46]

[Black Streak]

Do to the short endurance of a greyhound, i would not think they would make the ideal rcd as a full blooded specimen.     You might get to the catch to find your rcd out of the fight do to exhaustion and find that the other dogs are left holding the bag.     Just something to think about.     My experience with a full blooded greyhound is zero though, something else to think about lol.

[RyanTBH]

I know some people across the pond that use greyhounds for hogs... Pakistan and Afghanistan. Really pretty incredible dogs... They may have a bull breed somewhere in there on some of the dogs, but some use straight greyhounds and seem to get the job done. None the less, a really interesting animal. Not exactly a fan of how they do it over there, but interesting nonetheless. Good find on that literature there Ruben!

[TheRednose]

I know some people across the pond that use greyhounds for hogs... Pakistan and Afghanistan. Really pretty incredible dogs... They may have a bull breed somewhere in there on some of the dogs, but some use straight greyhounds and seem to get the job done. None the less, a really interesting animal. Not exactly a fan of how they do it over there, but interesting nonetheless. Good find on that literature there Ruben!

I have seen in pakistan and other parts of the middle east where they use Saluki's. They are incredible if you ask me. They look very similar to a greyhound just have about 10x the stamina. There are tons of video's on youtube of them hunting antelopes and gazelle with them. Amazing speed and endurance they have.

[Reuben]

 a short story...about 12 years ago my wife and I took my mother to Pearland, TX for a treatment she needed and it was going to be about 4 hours to get it done...me being a little on the ADHD type I got restless and needed to move around. We got my mother situated and we went looking around in a few pawn shops...I saw a nice porcelain figurine that was a scene of 2 stag hounds...one had a red stag by the throat or ear and the other was on his back and under the bull stag and latched on to the brisket...It was an excellent figurine because the dogs were detailed and correct as well as the Stag...the paint was in excellent condition...I am a fan of all working dogs but I was not going to pay $27.50 for it on account that is not a breed I would pay that much money for...if it were a redbone. plott, mt cur etc...I would pay that...I told my wife I might pay 15 bucks for it but surely not $27.50...She laughed and said you better look a little closer...that is not $27.50 you are looking at...It is $2750.00...after I verified the price I couldn't set it down fast enough...end of story...