Running Catch Dogs

[dallas22]

I have had really good luck with smaller catchy dogs. I know most don't care for them but I do lol


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Im with u judge  100 percent

[hyan]

O I was think dam that a big little guy.i never really minded the smaller rcds I mean our wippet x cats were not big by any means but you get 3 of them on a pig and they woop some pig a$$ but like rcds in general it's all up to the person hunting them if it works for me don't mean it will work for you I just like the small fast type It seamed they are always trying to prove them selfs to be better then big dogs

[Slim9797]

Hyan that junior dog of mine is 1/8 whippet hound. Brindle cur and a little pit. I might just kick him out with a couple other rough dogs tomorrow and see what he will do. He's been chewing his chain cause he hasn't hunted since he got gutted about 5-6 weeks ago. 


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[Black Streak]

I don't necessarily agree with wanting small catch dogs for what yall consider the job of RCDs nor do I think it's a grand idea to be deliberately crossing bay dog breeds to catch dog breeds in order to obtain what's considered an RCD by most on here.       To me, both of these ideas is just putting more hurdles in front of the dog for the dog to overcome.  It is just my opinion but I think most people breed this way to get faster catch dogs and ones with better stamina because they either are not familiar with other types of catch type breeds that would be better suited for such a job and crossing to or they don't know where to obtain access to them or both.        
     I also think that it is this type of dog that turns a lot of people off to them do to frequent bad experiences had by them.  Not all the negative opnion of them are directly related to the type of dog used as an RCD but how they are hunted and what's paired with them also contributes to bad experiences with them as much as the other to make it double the potential trouble.
       To me, if a dogs job is to catch a pig, be it a lead in dog or an RCD it needs to be a catch dog through and through or else why put the C in RCD.     Makes no sense to me either why some people will heavily vest their lead in catch dog with 4 layers of armer but the RCD they run has half the layers of protection.   Reason for this is better movement usually but isn't the RCD exposed to the same risks as the lead in for much longer periods of time when running an RCD the way most do?  Could this be the reason people had rather breed out so much catch out of the catch dog they call RCDs, so they really aren't catch dogs but rather really gritty dogs that will not catch all hogs the way their lead ins will?            Another thing about vests and small Rcd's vs big ones is the small dog needs much more coverage by the vests.   A good hog can better hook a small dog further back than it can a taller longer stouter dog.   This extra coverage needed over a larger dog relults in more and quicker heat build up and less freedom of movement and manuverability.
    Now take the small RCD caught on a good hog vs a much larger dog.   Isn't it easier for the hog to enforce it's will on a small dog caught on the ear verses a larger dog if all things are equal?  I'd say so!  Wouldn't it be much better for a catch dog that's gonna be caught longer than a lead in, to be of better strength and size so the pig can't enforce it's will on the dog since the dog is left to handle the pig longer than the typical lead in dog?  I'd think so again.    
     If a fast catch dog is what tickles your fancy, wouldn't it make sense to breed catch dogs from catch breeds that would yeild a better suited catch dog for the purpose of running pigs down and catching them rather than breeding rougher bay dogs?      
      I personally don't think the typical RCD used by most is fast enough to be considered what I would think of as an RCD but there is no set speed requirement that I'm aware of.  I think it's more of a style than speed that a lot of guys refer to.     In my personal  view, a catch dog that barely keeps pace with a typical bay dog would not be considered a running catch dog either.     Crossing a Catahoula  to a bulldog isn't gonna give a hole lot of speed.     I think of a running catch dog as a dog that decisively over takes a fast pig, not one that struggles to close the distance or keep pace.  This inturn will allow the pig to get to a preferred spot to turn and fight rather than be caught as the dog dictates.   Course if your running bay dogs with an RCD, you have already disregarded this anyway and give the advantage to the pig.
     I'm not trying to create drama here by going against the general flow of things here, just my thoughts and views to added to the conversation.  Maybe it will make sense to some but I'm sure others will not see it as such.         In the end who cares what label a dog falls under or what Joe Blow calls his dog.    If he wants to call his chiweenie an rcd then it's his dog and he can call it what he wants.    We all have different standerds and veiws.   This is just mine.    
    

[Slim9797]

Hell of a write up black streak. You make a lot of great points. I said some of the same stuff to a friend the other day about the whole RCD thing involving my junior dog. That dog has the "want to" factor. And the speed and most certainly the bite to make what I believe to be a proper(bad choice of word but can't think of better) and effective running dog that catches and holds any pig he comes across. All that I have come to decide he lacks is mere size. At about 45 pounds, to me, I don't care how much this dog WANTS to effectively catch a 250 lb boar. He just isn't big enough to do it. And I won't take anything away from the dog because his weight to strength ratio is pretty ridiculous but try as he might, even if he stays hooked on the ear, if that big hog want to run. Junior is going with him. He ain't near heavy enough to anchor one.


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[Judge peel]

Black streak I will agree with what your saying it's hard to disagree when you go to a 80 lb dog that has a 200 lb hog by him self. But I just like smaller dogs even tho I have one big dog 80 plus he is a hogs nightmare at the same time he rarely beats the smaller dog. Do yo the area I hunt which is deep creek bottoms with thick under brush then wide open then back to the brush. But I never call my dogs rcd to me that is a different animal. And I am with you on not crossing bay to catch makes no sence to me


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[TheRednose]

Good post Blackstreak, I think you make a lot of very good points as well. I agree with you and that is why I want Whitley for exactly those reasons. She hopefully will have the ability to end those races before they really even get started. Also another thing I noticed in my very short limited hunting experience is a tall dog of any type has a big advantage for how he can hold a pig and shoulder up with one. And since I don't want my little strike dog to catch at all and get wrecked and I don't have the ability to run 4+ dogs at once I need that speed and size on my RCD.

Now if I was hunting in areas like some of the videos I seen in Hawaii or New Zealand that is beyond high and thick, I would prob run 3+ short range straight catch dogs like a lot of them do, like the bulldog whippets cat or heeler mixes with a real big dose of bulldog in them, they run a lot of those type mixes from what the couple of shows I have seen said. I have seen them have to go to ground too for a hog in a few times in the New Zealand vids, pretty crazy. 

Now if I did have a smaller RCD that I wanted to use like you Slim I would definitely strategically group it with either another RCD too, and only short range dogs that way like Blackstreak mentions it wouldn't have to anchor one as long. Still preferably though with another RCD, and it wouldn't hurt if those short range bay dogs were gritty too. Just my two cents take it for what its worth.

[Slim9797]

I got a couple rougher dogs that'll catch if he hooks up. Thinkin about cutting them loose around 2 this afternoon and seeing if I can catch something. My luck it'll be the rankest boar on this place that they go find. I agree rednose it's all about know your dogs and pairing them accordingly. I'll be the first to tell you I own 7 dogs and only one of them can I watch the Garmin and tell you when she fixing to strike and if it's a good hog and the bad thing is I've had this dog for the least amount of time of any of my others. She's just my best so I constantly pay attention to her. Plus she doesn't hunt hard but she hunts smart and if she gets any farther than about 250 yards from me. You better start walking cause it's gonna be a pig. With that being said I just haven't figured out how to pair my dogs to effectively use my junior dog


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[warrent423]

Although I prefer my cur dogs in the 60 to 70 lb. range, I have fed a few in the 40 to 50 lb. range. Most would be amazed at what a 40lb, smart catching, stock bred cur dog can "anchor"

[Judge peel]

Warren to agree 100 % I got a 42 lb and a 50 lber that will make a be leaver out of ya


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[Judge peel]

Warrent stupid phone lol


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[Black Streak]

Judge I started to text you and tell you the direction I really wanted my post to go and the people whom I was trying to reach and give thought to but I figured I'd put it her for all to see because most of my interesting information sharing and gathering is done in texts or calls and no one but the two of you ever know the interesting stuff being shared and learned, so I deleted what I had started and decided to put it on here because I'm not doing it for myself or you, I'm doing it for guys like me when I was searching for a good foundation of knowledge regarding a similar dog to and RCD.
         Judge eventhough you don't consider your dogs as RCDs, by a lot of peoples opinions, they are.   You have teams of them you hunt with, much like the Hawaiian guys.  I think it's very similar style but it's a great style.  Yall do it proper with your really rough dogs and your dogs really work well together.      You love the dogs you have and their style because it's who you are and the style you love.  You also stay true to breeding catch breeds to catch breeds in order to make better catch dogs and vice versa with the bay dogs. I really like that!     
     As I said earlier I wasn't trying to reach guys like you and share my thoughts with you (eventhough I love discussing dogs of any kind with you and a few others and find it really rewarding) I was trying to add thought to the guys running packs different than yours and wanting to add an rcd.        I believe that an rcd type dog requires a different kind of responsibility and a good type rcd changes the dynamics of the situations people will soon uncovere.  It is my personal opinion that most are probably not used or really rather paired correctly.   I'm not gonna sit here and tell people how to hunt their dogs according to me but really my purpus was to describe a type of dog that would hopefully work better for them rather than crossing a cat to a bull and going for broke and then developing a bad taste in their mouth for rcd's and rough dogs in general.     
    Judge since you don't consider yourself as having RCDs, but to me and what I know about your style, you hunt with a team of them and do it well.    I personally don't think a dog like one of mine would add anything to what and how you already hunt.        However, as a result of reading this forum from basically the beginning to now, I get the feeling that most guys when entering into the RCDs  in an effort to stop races, will usually only try their hand at running 1 rcd with there pack.   I personally cringe  at this again I might make a suggestion but  I'm not gonna tell people how to hunt.  What I'm basically trying to do with my prior post is give these people a little more of something to think about than just crossing a  bay breed to a catch breed or purchasing such a dog in hopes it put a stop to their races.     I never knew of the kinda catch dogs I have today when you and I first met and I don't think many people still know of them or understand them.      But they are here and they are an option and their are tons of great foundation dogs people are breeding on here that you could essentially cross a good coyote stag to and get in my opinion a much better suited dog to fulfill the requirements of most wanting an rcd .      Most of these guys are only gonna run 1 rcd with their pack and not hunt with an entire pack of rcd's.     I think  they are setting that dog up for failed and hard times no matter how good it's bred or its natural talent is but by gosh I'm gonna try to describe my opinion of an rcd in hopes it helps them obtain their goal lol.          Their are proper ways to run rcd's I think.    I would think the smaller the rcd the better it would be to have multiple  dogs on a pig and by multiple  I mean 3 or so on a good pig.   I hunt by myself and I don't want no more than 2 of my dogs on a pig.  They are big stout dogs and 2 is plenty.   For smaller rcd packs I would really want that 3rd dog on an elbow or ham.   That 3rd dog really really really robs a pig of its ability to reek havoc, plus that 3rd dog on the ham or elbow will usually get a silent boar squeeling like a siren and that's pretty easy to run to lol.     
    Before I go, I'd like to share some of my opnion as to why I personally don't care for crossing bay dogs to catch dogs.  First off I know there are good dogs out there and also good things have come from this such as the  Cambells  and such but those are long lines of dogs and I'm not talking long lines of selective bred dogs, I'm referring to general crossing of one to the other and their offspring as well.          First up would be the sight hounds.  You'll gain your speed by crossing to this but they really aren't hard enough to carry their hardness through when diluted to a bay dog the way a pit does.     These dogs would probably work well when run in packs.      Crossing a pit to a cat, what's that really doing for you?  You don't have as hard a catch dog as you started with and it isn't quite as fast as the cat.    You got a catch dog that can keep up with a fast boar but not over take him and even if he did, this dog probably won't be able to hold a good boar long before it's had enough.   Put a good protective vest on this dog and you have slowed it down much more.  Don't give this dog good protection and you have done him dirty.       Give an rcd to much hunt and your catching pigs to far off with a dog that's really not designed for such catching.    Breed one outstanding crossed up dog to another and probably not gonna have anything close to as good the parents are.      This is quick and really simplified  version of why I think this.  I didn't go into thought process, difference catching style and differences in holding styles, working characteristics, bay busting, endurance, hunt drive, prey drive etc etc when crossing these dogs with one another and what you would loose and what you would gain.   That's  my kinda topic though but would be way to much to dicuss right now for me.         I don't just know catch dogs like the ones I have, I know a lot about other breeds of dogs but catch dogs are where my heart is.   I just run the kind that suits me and my style  like they way Judge runs whats suits him and and runs the dogs his heart belongs to.    Many different  ways to run really rough dogs of different sizes and breeds  but there are many many ways to do it unsuccessfully.  I respect and admire them all no matter their abilities or handicaps.        Just like descussions them and sharing my thoughts and opinions to those interested.      And for what it's worth to you guys like Judge, I like your curs that catch too, just won't find me breeding to one although if it could do the job well, I'd run it lol.
     

[hyan]

Black streak you are right on the smaller dogs but why does a dog have to catch on the ear to be a catch dog or have to be a certain breed wolfhound great dane mastiffs all of these dogs could be catch dogs but the most common dogs that are consider catch dogs are ab dogos or pits a german Shepherd could be a catch dog they have size mu smaller dogs don't hunt miles away they run 100 to 200 yard loops we walk hunt in the mountains I can't lead a bull dog for 5-10 miles then pack a pig out while holding on to a dog at the same time also they grab ass until I get there then call um off the ass to the ear so I can poke the pig if.my dogs use chest plates not full vest and yes some people like to put tons of kelar on there vest but I don't why because I am not letting my dog hold a pig for a lot of time as soon as they get on the head I got the legs I run grayhound German Shepherd x over cat these are all bigger then a bulldog I also run wippet x cat they are smaller dogs but will out run almost any pig or dog for that matter but again the smaller dogs only run a short way the long out they go the longer I have to pack out the pig that's why I don't like mile dogs also can you run a bulldog 3 days in the mountain catching pigs walking miles pulling around a person up and down hill and catching pigs I am not knocking bull dogs I just got one to hunt in texas but that's because it's a different type of hunting also if I am hunting open pastures on a bike I can be on my small dogs and pig fast so there isn't to much damage done if any it's just a point of view of someone that does run small dogs and does catch pigs and needs that type of dog to catch good pigs and my dogs will grab anything but like I said only on the ass till I get there I am not trying to be a smart ass know it all 

[Judge peel]

Good write up buddy. Ya a rcd is a different beast I don't think many people can understand what the difference is between these dogs but there is a big difference. When a guy is looking for a rcd to me says he don't have much grit in his pack but will bay most hog easily. So they think throwing a rcd out there solves it nope this just makes things worse. Cuz your hanging that one dog out to dry with no help. Now add that dog to few rough dogs that will catch problem solved. But your basic cd will not make a rcd. This is why they try to mix pit and what have ya in my thinking your just going backwards. The dogs you have are totally different more off a style of catching then heavy jaw catching big difference I have always said if you think you have a rough or rcd or what ever you can find out if you take him out with just one other dog you will know right fast the kind of dog it is 


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[Reuben]

when hunting spots are all thick briars and palmettoes and the only good openings are the small roads or pipelines then a true running catch dog just won't be very effective...his life span will be short If he is of the type that will use his nose to stick with it or if he will run as long as it takes to catch, especially in places where the hogs are dog smart...

I will probably never own a RCD because of the places we hunt...I like gritty to rough cur dogs that are border line RCD's...meaning a type of dog...whether alone are in a pack to stop and even catch a hog but to have the since to back off and bay before he over heats or gets beat to death by a big boar...that is my goal...I bred and raised gritty mt curs in the 55-60 pound range for many years and they were close to what I have described... back then I hunted some woods that were fairly open in the winter and a hog was caught is his bed or in the woods usually where they came up on him or in a short race...The dogs took care of themselves and sometimes would get hurt usually by getting caught between a dog, tree, steep bank or just plain ole thick brush, where a dog could not maneuver and get caught between that and a bad boar...not that often but once in a while is too much if it is a crippling hit...but I will also say that these dogs were bay busters in certain situations...these dogs had enough sense to not go in if they knew they were going to take a hit and maybe too cautious at times...in these situations where the dogs can't set up because of the thick briars the hog will break and run...these types of terrains make it hard to catch hogs especially if the hogs are dog smart...the hog gets way out in front in these thick places and the dogs will have to trail and sometimes the dogs will have to circle to find the track because of losing the track at times...all this is definitely to the hogs advantage.  he will run hard and set up and rest in the next thick jungle...I like a dog that can get out there quick and trail one up or wind one, a dog that can make it look easy finding a hog because it is just as important as stopping one...

my heart is in the rough cur dogs that can be turned out with any dog and always look good against any dog...that is the goal...
but finding the exact dog that can breed true to my liking is very hard to obtain because it is a fine line...in my minds eye the dog should be almost a RCD but smart about not getting hurt...A true RCD if he bails out into the river while caught solid has the potential to drown. he also has the potential to over heat if he is deep in the woods caught on a big boar and possibly out of range to track...or the hog gives a good hit because of the duration of being caught...the chances of the average catch dog getting hurt goes up by the second or minute...that is why so many people turn their catch dogs into the bay from less than 100 yards and some wait until they know exactly where the hog is bayed before turning the dog...these folks are doing their dogs right...they are putting their dogs health above catching a hog...

I do have one 1/2 hound 1/2 pit , 2 brothers that are 1/4 pit and 4 pups that are 1/8th pit and I like all of them fairly well...all look much like cur/hound...

as already mentioned...we all have our preferences and will stick by them and make the changes until we are at or close to our goals...

a good running catch dog in the places I hunt might work after the dogs have ran one for a few hours and then turn him in to hammer down...

[Judge peel]

The key to a running catch dog is it stops the running. This is my point of view and will catch under any condition any thing less is not a rcd


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[Reuben]

The key to a running catch dog is it stops the running. This is my point of view and will catch under any condition any thing less is not a rcd


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I agree...

[hyan]

Reuben that's kinda my point you can't run rcds because they will get kill fast and you won't catch to much pigs due to the type of place you hunt I have bin with Mike in some of the nastiest crap I have ever hunted and my dogs would have got there asses killed because of how far Mikes dogs can track and keep a hog at bay for hours so we can take the time to get to them and lead a dog in in hawaii you don't have that type of hunting the way I see it no mater what if you have a dog that hunts there a huge chance it can get killed weather it be a hog or a disease or hell chasing a hog in to the dam road n getting hit by a car but I will never ever run my dogs with dogs that dog grab period because like judge said they get hung out and get killed I will say there is a ton of information on this Web site and thank Mike for making it and you guys read all my side of the story

[Judge peel]

A cross or a mutt. But if you have crossed it to hunt hogs and it does what you want then it's a hog dog. Just becuz you cross those dogs which way or another don't make it a rcd only performance. I mean heck if you used a lab and it never bayed and always caught under any circumstance then it's a rcd. Yes it's breed is bird dog but it's a rcd under the term. 


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[Black Streak]

when hunting spots are all thick briars and palmettoes and the only good openings are the small roads or pipelines then a true running catch dog just won't be very effective...his life span will be short If he is of the type that will use his nose to stick with it or if he will run as long as it takes to catch, especially in places where the hogs are dog smart...

I will probably never own a RCD because of the places we hunt...I like gritty to rough cur dogs that are border line RCD's...meaning a type of dog...whether alone are in a pack to stop and even catch a hog but to have the since to back off and bay before he over heats or gets beat to death by a big boar...that is my goal...I bred and raised gritty mt curs in the 55-60 pound range for many years and they were close to what I have described... back then I hunted some woods that were fairly open in the winter and a hog was caught is his bed or in the woods usually where they came up on him or in a short race...The dogs took care of themselves and sometimes would get hurt usually by getting caught between a dog, tree, steep bank or just plain ole thick brush, where a dog could not maneuver and get caught between that and a bad boar...not that often but once in a while is too much if it is a crippling hit...but I will also say that these dogs were bay busters in certain situations...these dogs had enough sense to not go in if they knew they were going to take a hit and maybe too cautious at times...in these situations where the dogs can't set up because of the thick briars the hog will break and run...these types of terrains make it hard to catch hogs especially if the hogs are dog smart...the hog gets way out in front in these thick places and the dogs will have to trail and sometimes the dogs will have to circle to find the track because of losing the track at times...all this is definitely to the hogs advantage.  he will run hard and set up and rest in the next thick jungle...I like a dog that can get out there quick and trail one up or wind one, a dog that can make it look easy finding a hog because it is just as important as stopping one...

my heart is in the rough cur dogs that can be turned out with any dog and always look good against any dog...that is the goal...
but finding the exact dog that can breed true to my liking is very hard to obtain because it is a fine line...in my minds eye the dog should be almost a RCD but smart about not getting hurt...A true RCD if he bails out into the river while caught solid has the potential to drown. he also has the potential to over heat if he is deep in the woods caught on a big boar and possibly out of range to track...or the hog gives a good hit because of the duration of being caught...the chances of the average catch dog getting hurt goes up by the second or minute...that is why so many people turn their catch dogs into the bay from less than 100 yards and some wait until they know exactly where the hog is bayed before turning the dog...these folks are doing their dogs right...they are putting their dogs health above catching a hog...

I do have one 1/2 hound 1/2 pit , 2 brothers that are 1/4 pit and 4 pups that are 1/8th pit and I like all of them fairly well...all look much like cur/hound...

as already mentioned...we all have our preferences and will stick by them and make the changes until we are at or close to our goals...

a good running catch dog in the places I hunt might work after the dogs have ran one for a few hours and then turn him in to hammer down...

 This is pretty much what I was lead to believe when I first started out but have discovered different.     Not all RCDs  are created equal and some have the jobs of working for contract guys who make a living off catching pigs with them in exactly the scenarios you just described they aren't fit to work in or couldn't.     
        The RCD types I see here a lot and see how they are paired often times leads people to this conclusion.    When analyzing the situations they are hunted in, I'd say your analysis isn't to far off but the mistake in the analysis is your analyzing  poorly thought out dogs with the most extreme of hunting style on top of the dogs being hunted / paired poorly.  Their are dogs bred to do this work, just a different style of hunting and type of dog than your used to.   
      To say an RCD type dog can't effectively  and efficiently do the things you say they can't and do it with only few injuries through their long lives and hard working careers is like saying a black mouth cur is only good for bay pen work.      These dogs are out there but your just not familiar with them.