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oconee
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« on: October 17, 2015, 06:05:57 pm » |
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I love to see dogs trail up game thats passef through an area and is far away. I have seen some very impressive trail dogs in my life and I currently own one thats no slouch. I noticed a comment that Reuben made a couple times that went something like "if we don't stop and wait for pups and let them work on the colder tracks they will move onto a hotter track and never learn to trail cold tracks. " Now I don't know if that was word for word and if not he is welcome to correct and share his opinion. Anyway the reason for this topic is to find out how everyone trains their dogs to trail cold tracks. The two best trail dogs I ever owned actually taught me how to trail. I had a male that I sold this summer that I thought was very good trail dog and I own a young female now that has shown me some good trail work as well. Not all my dogs can trail the same but I'm confident each will trail and find any track they can smell so I think the ability to trail is large in part dependet on how good of a nose the dog has been gifted. I have a three yr old that trails good but clearly doesn't have the same caliber of nose as the female I'm hunting. Thats about enough rambling, I just eanted to see everyones opinion on trail dogs.
I personally believe that once a dog learns to love the desired game and the desire to find that game kicks in the dog will naturally trail any track he comes across that his nose will allow him to smell. This is just my opinion and all other opinions are welcome.
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Judge peel
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« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2015, 06:23:37 pm » |
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I would say in my experience of taking a track most dogs will take a track at there level be it 20 mins old or 10 hrs. But I would say that's 99 % on the dog 1 % us cuz we do have to load the dog up and let it out rest pretty much on them to what level they will or won't take it. Don't be confused with the dog just ranging out which I seen them do but they really ain't on the track.
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Judge peel
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« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2015, 06:26:16 pm » |
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That is one reason I ain't ever put any effort in casting to me it's just teach the dog to get as far away from you as he can and if he gets s a hog then good deal just not my cup of tea
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oconee
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« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2015, 07:18:10 pm » |
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I agree with you 100% Judge. I have tried tracks and couldn't get them to go and another guy try his dog and it leaves the country lookin and ends up bayed but it was obvious to me he never acknowledged the original track. Two different styles of dog even tho some can't really even tell the difference. Both styles work very well and I have seen each style make the other look bad. Lol. Its all perference.
I know a guy in Wi. that refuses to put his pups on a hot bear track (less than an hour) even if it means not having a race that day. He told me the pups would never program themselves to put their nose down and work a track if he fed them smoking hot tracks all the time. Lol. I told him he was crazy and we had a good laugh about it and went on our way hunting together with different opinions. No harm to disagree IMO.
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hillcountry
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« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2015, 07:56:29 pm » |
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The ability comes from the breeding.
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If your scared you can ride in my pocket.
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Cajun
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« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2015, 08:35:03 pm » |
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The ability comes from the breeding.
X 2. Like other traits, they are either born with it or not. I have heard that all dogs can smell the same. I have never believed that for a minute. If they could, why couldn't a bulldog be able to trail like a bloodhound. |
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Bayou Cajun Plotts
Happiness is a empty dogbox
Relentless pursuit
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hillcountry
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« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2015, 10:36:58 pm » |
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Took years to figure that out. Dogs don't learn it, they don't grow into it and you can't teach em. All you can do is breed for the desired traits and steer them in the right direction. " just cuss a mule can make it around the race track it does not make it a race horse ."
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If your scared you can ride in my pocket.
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Reuben
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« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2015, 10:50:03 pm » |
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Oconee...you misunderstood what I was saying...I will use the mt curs I bred years ago for what I was saying in the other thread as well as in this thread...in my opinion they were the perfect dog for how I liked hunting...hard hunting dogs that covered plenty of ground and had the ability to find game rather quickly...a dog that can do that must have a good all around nose...I am not talking about bush beaters that look good but do not always find game even with decent sign...they were colder nosed than the average cur and not as cold nosed as a cold nosed hound...I never have liked a cold nosed dog that will take a track and run it for 2-4 hours to jump or bay the hog...I do believe my dogs could trail with the hounds but that is not how they were wired...I have seen walkers run over some tracks that my cur dogs would work out but that probably had more to do with the competition bred hounds that are looking for hot tracks...
what I was talking about in the other thread was my style of getting the best out of the dogs by how I trained them...most every track my dogs started the hog would be jumped, bayed are caught within a mile because the hogs usually will only travel to their bedding areas and that usually is not that far...usually get to the hog in 5 minutes or even 30 minutes, I am not talking about hogs that are already running due to wheelers are dogs running them but older tracks where the hogs are bedded up...any more time than that then the dog is trailing all tracks that hog made including feeding tracks...not saying all hounds do that but I definitely do not care for that...what I consider to be the best dogs for me are those that are smart enough to make a loop looking for the exit tracks...a cut and slash dog that is trailing, winding and running with his head up looking for the hog or the hotter end of the tracks...there is nothing wrong with those cold nosed dogs but the last one I had I did not keep very long...one thing I could say about that old redbone was that he was gritty and he would get his hog sooner or later...lots of times later...
I like the idea where someone can hunt through the middle of the woods with a pack of dogs and and not strike a hog then I come along behind them and all of a sudden we have hogs caught or running...I will not talk down the cold nosed dogs just don't care for that style at all...if I hunted for trophy boar as a living and had access to big properties then I would keep a few of those hounds because I would be scouting for big tracks that travel alone...
just like BigO said in his other post...cast the dogs out and if they come back you can bet there are no hogs in that neck of the woods...That is the kind of dog I like feeding...
getting back to what I said in the other threads...by me knowing my dogs and their noses I knew what it took to have my dogs hunting a certain style...I was very careful to follow that system...I wanted my dogs to use their nose to their fullest potential for trailing so I hunted a certain way...I wanted them to use their nose to their maximum potential for winding so I paid close attention to that as well and I encouraged or led them in that direction...yes they can do this naturally but if you notice I said use their noses to their maximum potential and in my opinion I took every opportunity to take them to a higher level...remember...I am not working with super cold nosed dogs because I do not like that and you can say it is a personal preference...I will say that my colder nosed curs could run tracks that some of my other curs would not trigger a response when they came across that track...
right now I have four 1/2 plott pups that I like and hopefully those that make it will hunt as I like...if too cold a nose on some they will be up for sale...but my thought was and is that I would rather start out with more nose than I like and tone it down than start with not enough...and like ole Forrest Gump said...that is all I have to say about that...
I do try to explain myself for those new guys who want to learn how to breed better dogs and/or in getting the most out of their dogs...I would like to see the bar raised when it comes to hog dogs as a whole...
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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BA-IV
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« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2015, 06:43:48 am » |
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I like to track hunt myself. I'll ride all day to find one big track at noon, and I expect the dog I turn loose on it to attempt to trail it. It's not hard to figure out whether your dog is actually trying it or running off, cuz if it's real cold it's gonna be a slow process at first.
I personally believe a dog either has it or he don't, but you can starve a dog on cold tracks and you will make him a better dog at trailing. It means going home empty handed or catching one hog, but I don't go to the woods to catch sows and shoats.
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Shotgun wg
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« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2015, 08:36:34 am » |
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I feel a dog can learn to take a colder track but not taught. The biggest part of that is the nose the dog is born with. The amount of oil factories in a dogs nose has a lot to do with the breeds represented in the dog. Some breeds simply have more than other. The more they have the better they can pick out a particular scent. While a dog may learn that if he keeps following this faint smell it will get stronger he is still limited by his ability to smell faint smells. Beyond that limit is the dogs desire to finish the trail. If you have that dog with the desire and the nose then it takes time letting that dog figure it out. If u have a cold nose dog to put with it that could help the dog straighten out those spots where it loses the scent. I have watched cold nose dogs work an old track. They spent almost as much time circling back to pick the track up as they did moving forward. U could see when they started getting hotter by the lack of circling back. These instances take lots of time and lots of patients with a try love of watching the dogs work. The fact is not every dog is gonna cold trail but a good dog man should be able to see it and move on or see the ones that have the desire and give them the chance to figure it out. These are the things that seperate a dog man from a hog man.
Shotgun
Arkansas
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Shotgun
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andrewe88
Hog Dog Pup
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Posts: 1
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« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2015, 11:14:04 am » |
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what kind of dogs yal hunt cur or hound
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BA-IV
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« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2015, 11:23:50 am » |
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I hunt cur dogs, I'm sure they've got hound somewhere in em though. I try not to let em know that or they may get sorry on me!
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Shotgun wg
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« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2015, 11:47:57 am » |
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I hunt hound x cur and straight cur.
Shotgun
Arkansas
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Shotgun
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oconee
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« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2015, 11:50:03 am » |
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Seems like most agree its natural and a few have mentioned a dog getting better by "learning" but I would ask this question. Its obvious that dogs get better at everything with experience but do you guys think a dog that gets better at cold trailing had that ability at birth and just needed the experience to bring it out because I would never count normal experience as training.
I guess its like splitting atoms but I honestly believe that when "dog A" is born he can naturally out trail "dog B" and there is nothing anyone can do for "dog B." Thats my opinion on the matter.
Another thing about my ideal of cold trailing, I personally won't sit and watch a dog blow a hole in the ground. If he can't move it I will get him and we'll move on. The age of the track is of no consequence to me because I never have anyway of ageing tracks so they either move it or we look for one we can trail.
Pretty much knows I hunt hounds but I caution folks to make sure they understand the difference between "grandpa's coon dog" and big game hounds that are made to drive tracks and catch game.
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Shotgun wg
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« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2015, 12:13:24 pm » |
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Dog A may be born with more natural ability than dog B. If dog B is given more opportunity to fine tune the skill than dog A chances are dog B will be better at it. Natural ability with experience is the ultimate combo but without experience it's useless.
Shotgun
Arkansas
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Shotgun
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Reuben
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« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2015, 12:42:26 pm » |
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a dog is born to hunt and trail a certain way...on that I agree with you...
I will give these 2 scenarios...on getting the most out of the dog pack or just dumping the dogs out and moving out and not paying much attention to the dogs...yes there are dogs that hunt for themselves and it won't matter much on what you do with them...usually we are trying to reel them in and very careful where to turn them out...a pain in the neck...
for both scenarios I will use as an example 2 different packs of dogs of the exact same breeding and each pack hunted by 2 different dog handlers/owners...the dogs have been line bred, inbred for many generations and the breeder has been very careful in selecting the right dogs for breeding...spending hours and hours deciding which dogs to breed taking into consideration all hunting traits and the breeder is very mindful of making sure to select for natural ability...in other words pups that don't know why they are doing it but something deep inside is motivating them to answer the call...no training just exposure to see what is natural inside each pup and it is documented so it can be considered in future breeding...a plus in the dogs resume when it is time to select a dog for breeding...
of course we know that a pup still needs to be taught what game to run and hunt...and that is when the dog handler comes in...these type of pups can be very gamey and will about wear you out if handled wrong...no...I am not taking credit on training...but folks throw it around loosely that it is the dog...take a few of these pups to the woods and they will bay the heck out of cows and run the heck out of deer...and deer running will only get worse before it gets better...there are steps that can be taken to prevent and minimize this and I have covered this many times but maybe I have not been clear enough...
Scenario# 1...
I run my pack of dogs without me ever reading what the dogs are doing...I unload and take off and tell the dogs to get ahead...they range out and maybe we catch a hog...it is hot and the dogs are hunting a little closer now and I do not slow down to let them rest...the dogs are running next to the wheeler and they smell a hog track but the track is not very hot so the dogs decide quickly to run ahead of the wheeler...a little further down they act like they smell hog in the wind but the hog scent is not very strong so they opt to run ahead again...these dogs know my style is to keep moving so they will keep running with me...then a hog crossed in front about 30 minutes before and they take that one quickly because they like it no matter what I am doing...or maybe they winded a hog 100 yards in and they know he is there and they will go in and bay him up or jump him...once in the woods they will hunt and run no problem...they are good dogs in anybody's book...
Scenario# 2...same line of well bred dogs...
John Doe is very attentive to his dogs...he takes pride in bringing out the best in his dogs and everything matters on what his dogs are ding once on the hunt...and he takes great pride in doing his best for his dogs...he preplans on how to hunt the area based on past experience and weather conditions...
he turns the dogs out and waits until they come back or lets them range out further...or decides it is best to move on for whatever reason...as he is creeping along down the pipeline and the dogs smell an older track and act somewhat interested...John Doe sees this immediately and stops and encourages the dogs to work it out...maybe it is a fifty/fifty changes on finding that hog but he wants his dogs to be the best they can be...same thing as he moves on...the dogs are winding hog...John notices this as well and he quickly analyzes the wind currents and decides where the hogs are located...and he slowly moves in that direction and tells the dogs to get ahead and they will find that hog...
nowhere did I say that I trained my dogs to exceed their genetic potential...but I did say more than a few times that I tried to maximize their potential by doing the right things at the right time...maximizing their potential to reach the upper limits of their genetic makeup...
for those that don't get that can settle for average...no problem...it still catches plenty of hogs with the right dogs...
all I really want is to share what I believe are some of the ways that have worked for me...I am sure there are many other ways that are just as good or better...
I hunt a redbone x pitbull...(two)- 1/2 mt cur x 1/4 pitbull x 1/4 redbone...and have (four)-1/2 plott pups out of one of the ladder dogs mentioned...
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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oconee
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« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2015, 01:44:05 pm » |
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I completely understand Reuben in fact i have hunted nearly 18 yrs with a guy that handles his dogs exactly like scenario #2. I on the other hand handle my dogs like senerio #1 except I will eventually kill them if they don't start investigating them colder tracks and wind currents a little harder. WITHOUT ENCOURAGEMENT!! I don't do moral support! Now having said that I bet money me and my friends both own dogs that everyone on this site would feed!! My point is, both mindsets will get you to you goal if you know what your looking for. Its all up to how a guy wants to do it.
Although I do believe my friend would tell you, he's wasted a lot of time on some culls in his life, whereas I haven't! They aren't all gonna make good dogs so I feel I have learned enough over the years to cut my losses early. Have I given up on some to quick, maybe but no one will ever know for sure.
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Reuben
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« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2015, 01:51:27 pm » |
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no sir...I do not make excuses for a cull...I like early starting dogs...or dogs that are on track to making dogs early...
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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oconee
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« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2015, 04:54:09 pm » |
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Was not implying you do Reuben. I was just stating my mindset.
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Bowhunter1994
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« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2015, 07:20:46 am » |
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Good topic here!
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If you cant hang with the big dogs STAY ON THE PORCH.
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