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Goose87
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« Reply #60 on: November 22, 2015, 03:37:10 pm » |
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So Reuben, let me ask, you seem to be pretty knowledgable, but you say you had your dogs where you wanted them and quit breeding because you didn't want to back yourself into s corner and didn't want to outcross because you didn't want to water anything down and produce culls. So what would you have done if you were a young man and needed to keep the line going? Breed yourself into a corner or use an outcross and add the hybrid vigor? Or sale out and start over? What I'm getting at its my belief that a line of dogs can't be maintained for many generations without any outcrosses, now to much outcrossing and all you'll have is watered down dogs. Please give me your input.
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Reuben
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« Reply #61 on: November 22, 2015, 04:19:43 pm » |
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Goose87...I can't say this is the best way but it worked great for me...My goal was to produce the best dogs I possibly could...that meant dogs that started early, a good nose for trailing and not a real cold nose but a good nose...also to have an inclination to wind and have good range and hunt at a good lope...the dogs I had started with did have all of that but I felt I needed to improve on consistency meaning having a high percentage of pups of this type...I also wanted plenty of gritt and bottom...I bred about the best BMC at that time that I knew about...just one time to get a little more size and a little quieter on track...after that it was all mtn cur and no other breed...
to purify the bloodline...meaning improving the percentages of getting more of what I wanted per litter...I decided that I could only breed the best dog I have ever owned once because he was 1/2 BMC...I bred his son 5 or 6 times and the females I bred once and moved to the next generation for several times until I felt the dogs were/would producing consistently...I also selected for natural ability as much as possible...who took to water like a duck...who rolled out the first time in the woods...who consistently found the most chunks of meat as little pups...a lot of these things I looked for...it was a game I liked to play back then...
once I was where I needed to be I quit breeding regularly...so I wouldn't have to bring in new blood...you can breed the same dogs again to replenish what is needed...
another thing to do is breed a dog to someone else's dog and get a few pups...if you are lucky enough to have one that looks like yours and hunts like your dogs then breed one of those pups into your line...and then use a pup from there to breed back to another good dog in the line...this pup will carry a quarter of the new blood and it is a safe bet because the next generation will have 1/8...but, if the first outcross does not look right and you don't like it you will need to pass on those pups and look elsewhere...and don't use your outcross as the hub on account it could be carrying 50 percent unknown genes...just work it in cautiously...
the things to look for is good length of leg, good feet, straight legs as well as good conformation...use your imagination and develop tests and be observant of how the pups act...maybe you see a pup take a whipping from a hog and he gets right back up in his face...or you see a 4 or 5 month old pup work a track backward...and you get excited even though your buddy says...yea but he is taking it backwards...or your 6 month old pup has got a young coon treed and you get excited and the guy you are hunting talks noise that the pup is trashing...lol
I look for signs of what that pup might be bringing to the table...in my mind it is the greatest game to play...but I have other priorities at 60 years of age...
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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oconee
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« Reply #62 on: November 22, 2015, 05:19:32 pm » |
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Reuben you seem to be a "student" of breeding bettee dog (much as I am) if you haven't already I would encourage you to read the book The Art of Breeding Better Dogs by Kyle Onstott. It is a very good book the describes in depth how line breeding and in some cases inbreeding stacks the genes in order to make crosses more consistent. I bought of line for 10 $ and I would encourage anyone to check it out if they're serious about getting into breeding.
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Reuben
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« Reply #63 on: November 22, 2015, 05:53:38 pm » |
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10 dollars is a bargain...I will check it out...thanks...
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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Reuben
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« Reply #64 on: November 22, 2015, 06:26:17 pm » |
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I got one for 10.33 but shipping put it right at 16 bucks...
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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oconee
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« Reply #65 on: November 22, 2015, 07:03:56 pm » |
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Worth every penny. I think you will like it.
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Goose87
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« Reply #66 on: November 22, 2015, 08:10:14 pm » |
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Oconee did you find it on Amazon, I ordered an old book written by Dr. Leon Whitney about breeding but it was mainly about physical characteristics and little to do with line breeding, good book none the less. Going to checkout this one now.
Reuben I completely see where your coming from.
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Reuben
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« Reply #67 on: November 22, 2015, 08:27:43 pm » |
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Oconee did you find it on Amazon, I ordered an old book written by Dr. Leon Whitney about breeding but it was mainly about physical characteristics and little to do with line breeding, good book none the less. Going to checkout this one now.
Reuben I completely see where your coming from.
I bought used on amazon just a little while ago... |
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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WayOutWest
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« Reply #68 on: November 22, 2015, 09:49:11 pm » |
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These discussions are why I come to this board!
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Black Streak
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« Reply #69 on: November 22, 2015, 10:51:00 pm » |
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When line breeding and needing to outcross, you really want to outcross to another line bred dog which line is similar to your own. Even when wanting to tweek something in your line, best to go to another line bred dog from a different line if you can't work it out on your own inside your own line. Outcrossing to a really good dog which is not line bred will result in a more likely hood of diversity among the pups.
This is my opinion and it simplified down to just a couple sentences.
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WayOutWest
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« Reply #70 on: November 23, 2015, 12:21:36 am » |
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I agree with that line of thinking also. It just leaves less variables. I have had a little experience with a too tight breeding many years ago and ended up with a bitch that they couldn't find titers on the first blood test. The vet college did some research with her and found they could help her titer count with an ivermectin shot on a regular basis. She was off a double brother/sister breeding off Tombstone/Red Baby and I have been careful ever since to have some uncle, aunt, half-bro/sis instead of straight brother sister. (For those who may not know, the titer count tells how good your immune system is.)
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Reuben
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« Reply #71 on: November 23, 2015, 04:55:58 am » |
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When line breeding and needing to outcross, you really want to outcross to another line bred dog which line is similar to your own. Even when wanting to tweek something in your line, best to go to another line bred dog from a different line if you can't work it out on your own inside your own line. Outcrossing to a really good dog which is not line bred will result in a more likely hood of diversity among the pups.
This is my opinion and it simplified down to just a couple sentences.
100 percent right...I totally agree... |
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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Reuben
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« Reply #72 on: November 23, 2015, 05:01:03 am » |
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when I used the BMC it was for a reason...less bark on track and more size...down a ways I tried a florida cur that was a very nice dog but never bred to the offspring...the problem with the mnt cur is that too many are used for squirrel and coon...so it is very hard to find a good line that has been bred for hog...
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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oconee
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« Reply #73 on: November 23, 2015, 05:14:52 am » |
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If you will take time to read the book it explains in great detail why you NEVER need to outctoss. One outcross (whether it be to another linebred dog or not) will cut all you work in half instantly! IMO you had better be SEVERLY deficienct before its worth outcrossing to attain some trait because you introduce so much unknown!
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Reuben
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« Reply #74 on: November 23, 2015, 10:54:49 am » |
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Oconee...I will read the book...
I know there are those that say if you breed correctly each time you will never need to outcross...
I also know there are those that say that outcrossing is a necessity due to a reduction in the gene pool/chromosome's, so freshening the genetics is a must...they say this reduction creates a weakened immune system, low fertility and smaller sized dogs...
as a kid I had dogs and pups that most were given to me or were throw aways...also had a litter and most pups made it even though they were never wormed nor vaccinated...my parents and grandfather treated all animal ailments at home in those days...
back in 1975 I had the chance to buy a Quachita large type Airedale for 50 bucks because this ole boy had to move...these pups were 300 dollars and air freight was close to a hundred so I was getting a bargain...about 2 weeks later that pup was very sick and that was my first trip ever to a vet...the pup was diagnosed as having contracted Distemper and there is no cure but only prevention...seems to me purebreds need all the vaccines to include other preventative meds...
so after saying all that I agree with the outcrossing...
However, I also know that the first outcross brings fifty percent of another family...so as I mentioned before bring in the new blood very carefully and only keep it on the side line as one dog in a program of 7-10 dogs or more...this dog is important because he/she is there as a stepping stone for another breeding...and the next breeding will have 3/4 of the bloodline that is guarded...so this way a small percentage is needed to boost the bloodline...that dog will produce 7/8th of the favored bloodline...
I will also say that if one were to use that 50/50 dog as a major breeder then the program we worked so hard for is out the window as you mentioned...
What I have talked about was the logic I followed when I was breeding my mnt curs...back then my goal was to produce great dogs that reproduced themselves and I wanted it to happen quickly and I did that by quick turnover and selecting as best I could...
this time around I want the same thing but my priorities have changed...I want good dogs first...and dogs that reproduce themselves is a goal as well...but it is baby steps in that direction because my biggest priority is good hunting dogs and keeping my expenses to a minimum...no fast turnovers...retain a dog if it works to my expectations...
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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Slim9797
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« Reply #75 on: November 23, 2015, 01:41:40 pm » |
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These discussions are why I come to this board!
after some of the pissing matches the last couple weeks it is nice to see some real knowledge and opinions shared. Good thread here no doubt! |
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We run dillo dogs that trash on hogs
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RyanTBH
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« Reply #76 on: November 23, 2015, 02:57:39 pm » |
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These discussions are why I come to this board!
after some of the pissing matches the last couple weeks it is nice to see some real knowledge and opinions shared. Good thread here no doubt! x2 This is why the site is here! |
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Do work, make chit happen, and never stop moving forward.
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Goose87
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« Reply #77 on: November 23, 2015, 03:22:58 pm » |
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?sns=fb&v=9AfBsTAQ8zs Rueben this video is for you, I remember you mentioning once before about the impacts of hunting a gyp while pregnant and how that manipulates the pups while still in the womb. Figured this would go good in this discussion. Everyone please feel free to share what you take form this video.
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liefalwepon
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« Reply #78 on: November 23, 2015, 03:39:45 pm » |
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Rueben, if you were closer Id ask you over to take your pick of these mtn cur pups I have, theyre line bred from hog dogs, not sure how long theyve been line bred for but they sure are rangy, theyre just starting to show interest in the penned hogs at about 12 weeks, theyre real smart and a lot of leg. the parents are the best hog dogs I know of. My buddy gave me 8 out of a litter of ten because he was too busy to deal with them, I gave one away, as he was overly aggressive with the food bowl, now I just feed them on the ground. Two have a little shorter legs than I like, but one of those is my favorite so far. They are not pure mtn cur but at least 3/4, they have a little BMC and parker in there and maybe a little cat. Ill try to post some pics.
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WHACK EM N STACK EM!!!
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WayOutWest
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« Reply #79 on: November 23, 2015, 05:24:16 pm » |
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Goose, I saw that video earlier today on Noahs fb page. Interesting take on why these young dogs do what they do.
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