When Selling Hog Dogs...

[Reuben]

Rueben, if you were closer Id ask you over to take your pick of these mtn cur pups I have, theyre line bred from hog dogs, not sure how long theyve been line bred for but they sure are rangy, theyre just starting to show interest in the penned hogs at about 12 weeks, theyre real smart and a lot of leg. the parents are the best hog dogs I know of. My buddy gave me 8 out of a litter of ten because he was too busy to deal with them, I gave one away, as he was overly aggressive with the food bowl, now I just feed them on the ground.  Two have a little shorter legs than I like, but one of those is my favorite so far. They are not pure mtn cur but at least 3/4, they have a little BMC and parker in there and maybe a little cat. Ill try to post some pics.

I appreciate the thought and would love to see the pics...about what weight do you anticipate for the males and females when grown?

[oconee]

Reuben your are 100% wrong on the tightly linebred dogs needing vaccines because of deficient immune systems.   Since becoming interested in plotts and devoting 100% of my time learning and researching plotts and bloodlines I have noticed that there are countless strains held together by individuals, some with NO outcrosses for 40-50 years and the myth about genetic effects on the immune system simply don't hold water.   I can show you pedigrees that you would swear the offspring would have 5 legs and 3 eyes but its by no means the case.   I have not bred my dogs that tight YET but I damn sure will when the cream begins to rise to the top.    I can name four men that have and I have seen numerous plotts from each of the EXTREMELY tight breedings and was pleasantly suprised with the consistency in the dogs from each strain with ABSOLUTLY NO ill effects on tge immune systems or conformation.   Not trying to be a butt (again lol) but I could not disagree with a statement anymore than I do the statement you made.    Take care

[Goose87]

Goose, I saw that video earlier today on Noahs fb page. Interesting take on why these young dogs do what they do.

That's where I got it from, heck he had me so ready to watch it I had to pull over and make a stop at my parents house so I could watch it, it's very eye opening and gives new outlooks on the nature vs nature philosophy.

[Reuben]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?sns=fb&v=9AfBsTAQ8zs Rueben this video is for you, I remember you mentioning once before about the impacts  of hunting a gyp while pregnant and how that manipulates the pups while still in the womb. Figured this would go good in this discussion. Everyone please feel free to share what you take form this video.

that is an awesome video Goose87...thanks for sharing...the first time I read that mans theory on unborn pups back in the early 80's I thought he was full of poop when I first started reading...but soon after I started to believe in his thought process...it was mainly what if's and why not's...because of that I started feeding 6 week old pups a raw wild hog head and would do that two or 3 times in a 3 week period...I made sure they were hungry before I let them have it because I wanted them to really want it...I also thought it was positive mental imprinting that would work in my favor...no science just theory...

getting back to what the man was saying...he said since the unborn pups are connected to the mother what she eats can stimulate the pups because of the connection...what she hunts and barks at they can be picking up on that too especially when they are fully formed and close to delivery...he was saying when she is trailing a coon the scent goes up in the nostrils and she has different reactions taking place and adrenalin is pumping as she nears on the coon and her excitement level increases as she is about to catch the coon on the ground and the smell and the taste of blood could affect how the pups will eventually react to a coon once they are born...they could be born to be natural coon dogs...the reasoning...because they are being imprinted positively with the smells/adrenaline/environment which are creating positive chemical reactions and this process makes a difference in the pups as hunting dogs...

I will add this as well...when one smokes we inhale into our lungs...the nicotine and other components are then carried throughout our bodies and we feel the effects...sure there will be many nay sayers...but I do believe...it could be the difference between breeding natural coon dogs...or, having to work the pups so they can make coon dogs...

I initially posted on this subject here on account of something unusual I witnessed at my house...I knew it was kind of far fetched about this subject for most but with what happened I thought it would carry some weight...

We were having a birthday party for my grandson when he was about 5 or 6 years old...They invited some friends and cousins from the son-in-laws side...this little boy about 4 years old was over and it wasn't long when my grandson and friends came in and said...grandpa, Kaleb is eating the little red peppers from your pepper plant...I said no he is not and Kaleb goes yes I am...I thought...maybe he is swallowing the peppers...so I said go get some peppers and show me...well he was back in a few minutes with 7 or 8 peppers in his mouth and he was chewing them up and then he opened his mouth and I saw red pigment on his tongue and crushed pepper and seeds all up in his mouth and it appeared as if he were eating candy...I said no more peppers on account I was worried for the little boy...these were hot peppers and if one ate to many you would get a serious stomach ache...I couldn't wait for his mama to show up...when she did I inquired and she said yep...he eats peppers like candy...I asked when did you find out? and she says when he was around 2 years old...she said they had a bowl of peppers on the table and he reached from his high chair and grabbed one and started eating it...been eating peppers ever since...Then she says when she was pregnant with him she craved peppers and ate them the duration of her pregnancy...I had already developed many theories about pregnancy and environment, foods, and smells...and this was 1 data point that hit like a ton of bricks...

[Reuben]

Reuben your are 100% wrong on the tightly linebred dogs needing vaccines because of deficient immune systems.   Since becoming interested in plotts and devoting 100% of my time learning and researching plotts and bloodlines I have noticed that there are countless strains held together by individuals, some with NO outcrosses for 40-50 years and the myth about genetic effects on the immune system simply don't hold water.   I can show you pedigrees that you would swear the offspring would have 5 legs and 3 eyes but its by no means the case.   I have not bred my dogs that tight YET but I damn sure will when the cream begins to rise to the top.    I can name four men that have and I have seen numerous plotts from each of the EXTREMELY tight breedings and was pleasantly suprised with the consistency in the dogs from each strain with ABSOLUTLY NO ill effects on tge immune systems or conformation.   Not trying to be a butt (again lol) but I could not disagree with a statement anymore than I do the statement you made.    Take care

Oconee...I am just like anyone one else on here...I post only what I believe...

one theory I have about worming and vaccines is this...if we let every pup die od natural causes without any human intervention then the cream will rise to the top in another way...it would be survival of the fittest...the few that make it to adulthood might get to breed if they are strong enough to overcome the competition...after many generations the survival rate will go up...but we as humans will vaccinate and worm the pups for different reasons...I will do what is needed...

I did explain both sides...the one you put out there and the one I choose to follow...but that is what makes the world go round...

[oconee]

I vaccinate every pup I raise and run a strict worming regimen so how dogs naturally fend off parasites and disease has never really entered my mind to tell the truth.   Having said that I would not keep or breed a cronic but its not been a problem to this point.     I find it awful hard to find keepers so the last thing I'm gonna do is skip basic kennel maintenance just to see who can withstand neglect.    Good luck

[liefalwepon]

Rueben, if you were closer Id ask you over to take your pick of these mtn cur pups I have, theyre line bred from hog dogs, not sure how long theyve been line bred for but they sure are rangy, theyre just starting to show interest in the penned hogs at about 12 weeks, theyre real smart and a lot of leg. the parents are the best hog dogs I know of. My buddy gave me 8 out of a litter of ten because he was too busy to deal with them, I gave one away, as he was overly aggressive with the food bowl, now I just feed them on the ground.  Two have a little shorter legs than I like, but one of those is my favorite so far. They are not pure mtn cur but at least 3/4, they have a little BMC and parker in there and maybe a little cat. Ill try to post some pics.

I appreciate the thought and would love to see the pics...about what weight do you anticipate for the males and females when grown?

I think the females will be around 50lbs and the males around 60, we'll see, the sire is 55 and the dam is closer to 60.

If epigenetics interests you, then read the biology of belief by Bruce Lipton, excellent book

I don't vaccinate my dogs, never had any major problems, they all got kennel cough one time from these stray chihuahuas that were coming around but they all got better, that was years ago, I worm twice a year unless I see a tapeworm segment and seems to work fine. My dogs have never had a flea problem, even when they get lots of fleas from hunting buddies they just die off, when I used to raise terriers I never even wormed them and they were healthy as can be. You guys probly have more pathogens down there because it's humid
Here's them pups, I'll take some pics tomorrow


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[decker]

I have some questions for yall. I bred my best male to a hound gyp and kept 2 pups, a male and female that are starting to really get it, but theyre giving a little to much mouth for me right now. I am wanting to breed the same male to a different gyp, that I really like, when she comes in heat and keep as many pups as I can, and cull down from there. I also have another nice male dog that I could throw in the mix.  I guess what im asking is how do I go about getting close as I can to recreate the first male consistently, but don't really know the next step.

[Goose87]

After watching that and seeing there is a thesis on "learned" ability can be passed on genetically, I read your post a while back about that Rueben and it got me to thinking a lot about this, chemical responses are what's responsible for our bodily actions, there's a chemical response that "drives" dogs to want to run game, whether it be a bulldog getting that eye when's something's got him excited or a coon hound treeing so hard he's slobbering at the mouth, or a walker dog going nuts in the box because it hears other dogs running, all those reactions are the responses of some chemical responses going on inside him that they have no control over, all they know is that they want what's in front of them, sort of like high their getting, so if a gyp is with pups and she's exposed to whatever makes her go nuts and get this "high"  then, theoretically these pups should be getting the same feelings being as they are still apart of the mother, no different than a crack fiend giving birth, it's not the child's fault but their born an addict of whatever chemical response their mother was, no different here In dogs, and if maintained and uninterrupted that urge to find what ever cause those good feelings will continue with the animal its entire life, this is really a complex subject that has really shaken the way I've always seen things when it came to dog breedings.

[Reuben]

After watching that and seeing there is a thesis on "learned" ability can be passed on genetically, I read your post a while back about that Rueben and it got me to thinking a lot about this, chemical responses are what's responsible for our bodily actions, there's a chemical response that "drives" dogs to want to run game, whether it be a bulldog getting that eye when's something's got him excited or a coon hound treeing so hard he's slobbering at the mouth, or a walker dog going nuts in the box because it hears other dogs running, all those reactions are the responses of some chemical responses going on inside him that they have no control over, all they know is that they want what's in front of them, sort of like high their getting, so if a gyp is with pups and she's exposed to whatever makes her go nuts and get this "high"  then, theoretically these pups should be getting the same feelings being as they are still apart of the mother, no different than a crack fiend giving birth, it's not the child's fault but their born an addict of whatever chemical response their mother was, no different here In dogs, and if maintained and uninterrupted that urge to find what ever cause those good feelings will continue with the animal its entire life, this is really a complex subject that has really shaken the way I've always seen things when it came to dog breedings.

I like how you said that Goose87...it is also good for humans....probably will take us to a higher level some day...

liefalwepon...nice looking pups...they are probably going to make some awesome hog dogs...that is the size of mnt cur I like...do the parents open much?

Decker...it is hard to say what should be your next step...If I were trying to reproduce one dog the first thing I would do is examine his bloodline...does he come from a long line of good dogs or was his dam and sire excellent hog dogs, scatter bred etc...

[Scott]

I have some questions for yall. I bred my best male to a hound gyp and kept 2 pups, a male and female that are starting to really get it, but theyre giving a little to much mouth for me right now. I am wanting to breed the same male to a different gyp, that I really like, when she comes in heat and keep as many pups as I can, and cull down from there. I also have another nice male dog that I could throw in the mix.  I guess what im asking is how do I go about getting close as I can to recreate the first male consistently, but don't really know the next step.

Do you know the pedigree on the male? That's your starting point. Give me a call this weekend  to discuss.

[Judge peel]

On the subject of vac and wormer imo only a knuckle head would not use them. These are not wolves these animals have been altered from there original state. Bout 20 plus yrs ago me and my cuz had a nice set of pits real nice and we bred them the pups where doing fine kept in the house till 5 weeks or so gave them there first shots and went on. The one I had picked was solid white very nice pup and it caught parvo. So ever since I have done it right by what the vet says to do 


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[Judge peel]

Nice pups fella I like those black ones


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[l.h.cracker]

Totally agree Judge its not that expensive to do yourself or even go to a mobile shot clinic I take my whole pack once a year and every new dog whether the person I got it from says that they are up to date or not unless I see the paper work I take no chances.A full round of shots including rabies and distemper is $15 and a heart worm test is $20 so $35 dollars for the each dog is not that much considering that they will lay there life on the line for you.Ivermectin and safeguard monthly is not that costly either why take a chance.

Reuben I put the word out for a brood bitch to lease or buy and hopefully something comes of it.

[Judge peel]

Cracker if I was closer to ya I would hook you up with something. I know the dogs ain't from the lines you run but you never know what you got till you open the box lol


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[l.h.cracker]

Judge I ain't scared to think outside the box and I would be happy to take any hook up or advice you have to offer buddy.

[liefalwepon]

Rueben, the sire is silent on track, hes the one that has other kinds of cur in him, the dam will make some noise occasionally on a hot track if shes real close to the hog, but its not barking and she doesnt always do it, shes usually silent

[decker]

I have some questions for yall. I bred my best male to a hound gyp and kept 2 pups, a male and female that are starting to really get it, but theyre giving a little to much mouth for me right now. I am wanting to breed the same male to a different gyp, that I really like, when she comes in heat and keep as many pups as I can, and cull down from there. I also have another nice male dog that I could throw in the mix.  I guess what im asking is how do I go about getting close as I can to recreate the first male consistently, but don't really know the next step.

Do you know the pedigree on the male? That's your starting point. Give me a call this weekend  to discuss.

Will do, I guess you would call him scatter bred, but came from good stock. A buddy has 2 littermates to him, and I would say they're above average. The first gyp I bred him to was a little inbred, line bred, but didn't like her but hunted with her parents and grandparents, and knew what they were. This next gyp I want to breed is everything i like, and i think could really compliment him good, the pups should have a lot of motor, maybe to much but id rather have that than not enough. I'll get the man I got her from to send me a copy of her papers and I'll check them out.

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[oconee]

Decker I would breed as tight as I could as long as I felt good about the dogs I were using to stack the original dog in my pedigrees.      Had a breeder tell me once "never use any dog that I wouldn't feel comfortable duplicating."     It takes several crosses and offspring to find the right ones to move forward with but its worth the trouble IMO.   Just remember the more you see the dog your wanting to duplicate in your pedigrees moving forward to better chance you stand of seeing him again as long as you didn't let anything inferior slip through the cracks during your breedings.    Its actually sounds simple until you start evaluating EVERY dog you use with a microscope.    Good luck.

[liefalwepon]

On the subject of vac and wormer imo only a knuckle head would not use them. These are not wolves these animals have been altered from there original state. Bout 20 plus yrs ago me and my cuz had a nice set of pits real nice and we bred them the pups where doing fine kept in the house till 5 weeks or so gave them there first shots and went on. The one I had picked was solid white very nice pup and it caught parvo. So ever since I have done it right by what the vet says to do 


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Well worming preventatively is fine but why give your dog wormer if they dont have worms, I know guys that worm once a week, seems excessive to me, ive had my dogs feces tested and they dont have worms if I worm twice a year. Down south you are probably more prone to worms, from standing water, flat land and different climate.

Think what you will about not vaccinating but the fact is we cant breed the dogs with the healthiest immmune systems if we dont know which dogs have them. For thousands of years dog breeders have been breeding the dogs with the most robust immune systems, why destroy all their hard work for a small percentage of dogs lives. The most common health problems in dogs are auto immune diseases and hyper immune disorders which have been linked to the over use of vaccines, if you research all the health problems vaccines can cause in your dogs and all the health benefits of vaccines and weigh out the pros and cons, you might choose to not vaccinate as well.

Distemper is a type of kennel cough that rarely causes death in a healthy dog and is very rare now days, Parvo rarely causes death in an healthy adult dog so I just dont take my pups off the property until they are ten months old, parainfluenza, another type of kennel cough has mild symptoms and is rarely fatal in dogs. Lepto is prevalent in tropical or subtropical areas, never heard of a dog getting it here, in the tropics people die of it all the time, there are also so many varieties its hard to know if the vaccine is even effective. Adenovirus can be fatal but most healthy adult dogs survive and Ive never known any dog to contract this in my area.
http://www.angryvet.com/vaccinations/
the angry vet website seems to agree that the efficacy of most vaccines is hyped. When faced with the choice to support my healthy dogs immune system that has been developed and tested by these diseases for thousands of years or use a vaccine that contains known carcinogens and compounds that damage the nervous system like mercury and formaldehyde that my drug pusher vet is trying to guilt trip me into using and has a very high likely hood of permanently damaging my healthy dogs immune system, Ill choose the former. Dont get me wrong I do think vaccines are beneficial tools, if there was an outbreak of a disease in my are I would get my dogs vaccinated with a specific vaccine if possible, or the homeopathic equivalent, but using scheduled multiway vaccines in my area would be irresponsible.

so my question is what should I vaccinate for and why? Do some research Judge and I might not be as big a knuckle head as you think. Im not saying you or anyone else on this board shouldnt vaccinate, we all live in different areas with different pathogens. we dont vaccinate our kids out here either, vaccines for humans have the same known carcinogens and more, and have been linked to cancer and the dramatic rise of autism, learning disabilities, auto immune diseases and hyper immune disorder.