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Reuben
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« on: November 27, 2015, 12:47:07 pm » |
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I believe we can get 100 percent hog dogs from some litters on a consistent basis...
some say you can only get as good as what are the parents...I believe that you can get only as good as what is in the parents...the more tight bred they are the less variability will be available to improve on...
the genetic make up of a dog is more diverse than most mammals...so it can be more challenging to breed better dogs...
color genes in redbones are red...however, the reds in a litter of 8 pups can be 8 different shades of red...
the cats can have very diverse patterns of merle in a litter...
my theory is that some genes can be made up of a basket of genes with different intensities...and these differences are what causes the variations whether it is different shades of coat color or whatever.
and...IMO...hunting genes are made up of those same type of gene bundles as well...it is rather challenging to breed for several reasons...these genes are not readily displayed and the variety can be great...also have to take nose, range, bottom, gritt, baying style, speed, open or silent, visual, winding, ability to find game, early or late starting...etc...etc...
no wonder there are so many culls out there...
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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WayOutWest
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« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2015, 01:05:14 pm » |
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And that doesn't even factor in the quality of the eye making the decisions on what is the best and most breedable. The guy makin the decisions is at least as important as the dogs.
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Judge peel
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« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2015, 01:29:59 pm » |
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The eye of the match maker trumps everything
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oconee
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« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2015, 01:53:19 pm » |
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OK Reuben now you have a topic I can get excited about. We have had this debate on another site I'm a member of and I can honestly say "I DO NOT believe we can produce 100% litters on a consistent basis. Now before anyone gets mad at me I'll admit it can happen but to do it over and over again is impossible IMO. This all goes back to a couple things IMO and first and foremost I don't think we all are looking for the same kind of dog to call a "keeper". You might cull half my pack and vice-versa. So given the diversity of what each person wants the odds are EXTREMELY long IMO. Now I agree with the tightest breedings producing the most consistent litters and we could expect high % with proper line breeding but the mental toughness aspect is the biggest variable that's hard to breed for. Example, I have a pair of pups right now that are identical in natural ability but one has the mentality that sets him well above the other. Both pups well raised in the same atmosphere and treated the same way but one has the mentality to attack and the other has the mentality to be cautious. That simple difference is all it takes to make my litter 50% instead of 100%. Not to mention half the people on this site might not like either one of them. Its just to far fetched the reasonably think we as breeders can produce 100% litters that suit most folks.
As far as offspring out preforming the parents. Well that's about the craziest thing I've ever heard. I have seen countless pups out preform their sire and dam. In face I have a 12 month old right now that is far superior to his mother and she will die on my place.
Good topic and I look forward to everyone's opinion.
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liefalwepon
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« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2015, 01:53:55 pm » |
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The eye of the match maker trumps everything
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[/quote)
X2
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WHACK EM N STACK EM!!!
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Reuben
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« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2015, 02:14:25 pm » |
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And that doesn't even factor in the quality of the eye making the decisions on what is the best and most breedable. The guy makin the decisions is at least as important as the dogs.
I agree...but it does not trump over the rest of what is needed to make good decisions... Oconee...since you put it that way you are right as well...I was thinking average hog dogs... and mental toughness is a biggy as well...a pup that takes a beating from a hog in the woods might give up hunting forever or for a long time...to me he is not worthy to be bred...and his brother can get the same whipping and get right back in the hogs face and it possibly will make him hate a hog even more...and if he is overly aggressive he will be culled by mother nature...or he will need a vest...just remember that his offspring may need the vests as well... |
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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Reuben
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« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2015, 06:47:10 pm » |
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I would like to see some of you newer folks from this website to join in and throw ideas and theories out here and get some new discussion going...  |
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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TheRednose
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« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2015, 07:05:29 pm » |
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OK Reuben now you have a topic I can get excited about. We have had this debate on another site I'm a member of and I can honestly say "I DO NOT believe we can produce 100% litters on a consistent basis. Now before anyone gets mad at me I'll admit it can happen but to do it over and over again is impossible IMO. This all goes back to a couple things IMO and first and foremost I don't think we all are looking for the same kind of dog to call a "keeper". You might cull half my pack and vice-versa. So given the diversity of what each person wants the odds are EXTREMELY long IMO. Now I agree with the tightest breedings producing the most consistent litters and we could expect high % with proper line breeding but the mental toughness aspect is the biggest variable that's hard to breed for. Example, I have a pair of pups right now that are identical in natural ability but one has the mentality that sets him well above the other. Both pups well raised in the same atmosphere and treated the same way but one has the mentality to attack and the other has the mentality to be cautious. That simple difference is all it takes to make my litter 50% instead of 100%. Not to mention half the people on this site might not like either one of them. Its just to far fetched the reasonably think we as breeders can produce 100% litters that suit most folks.
As far as offspring out preforming the parents. Well that's about the craziest thing I've ever heard. I have seen countless pups out preform their sire and dam. In face I have a 12 month old right now that is far superior to his mother and she will die on my place.
Good topic and I look forward to everyone's opinion.
I think you are 100% right on this. But for discussion sake I think I will put some parameters on my answer on who and what is considered. I would say as far as judging the dog, lets say these are for the breeder only and whatever that said breeder considers a hog dog. Also as for what is considered making it and not making it, I would say any one that hunts at the level expected by same said breeder. So not every pup has to be a superstar to make it just good enough that the breeder would be able to use it on its own to hunt the way that breeder hunts. I think if we put those ideas in place we can have a better discussion about actual breeding and not what a hog dog should be or what style is best. Now with that being said I still agree with Oconee, you can definitely get some 100% litters especially if the litter is smaller but to think you can produce at a 100% is not possible in my opinion, not to say you shouldn't strive for that, but I think there will always be culls. There is no 100% line. Now in regards to offspring out performing parents, I think that is what everybody should be striving for. Putting two dogs together to make a better dog is what it is all about. I would say look at horse racing they are consistently doing this. Your best bet to doing this obviously is finding prepotent individuals. I know with bulldogs finding a truly prepotent individual is an extremely valuable thing, and they are not always the Ace or superstar. A lot of times they are the Ace's brother or sister who is decent to good and have close to the same genes and just pass them on, on a more consistent basis. I again say go look at horse racing for this too. Horse like mr. prospector is an example of a well bred horse who was a decent race horse but not super stars and produced out of this world. I think that is where generation after generation of breeding only solid individuals within a certain family will allow this. |
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Judge peel
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« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2015, 07:27:39 pm » |
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Rednose that's a pretty good way to look at it. All the things we look for in dogs to breed are bout the same a few push one item over another but there all in there. Some dogs just have the it factor that you can't find in ped or conformation and so on. Some dogs ain't built right but run faster then better built dogs. That don't come by looking at paper or the blood line or ten generations of breeding. You can only know these things by your eyes.
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TheRednose
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« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2015, 07:44:41 pm » |
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You are right Judge, that is why I have always believed that a line of dogs is only as good as the man that stands behind it.
In regards to the "it factor", going back to my last post in my opinion the trick is not finding a dog with the "it factor" but finding a dog that can produce dogs with the "it factor", in my personal opinion they are two different things. Not saying a dog can't be and do both, but being and reproducing are two different things.
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oconee
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« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2015, 08:06:17 pm » |
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You guys are confusing me. I can't afford to breed every sibling of every good dog I come across. I do understand what you saying about others from the cross being better reproducers but how do you go about finding this out? I will ALWAYS start by breeding the best dog from a particular cross and likely won't consider a mediocre dog at all. How do ya'll figure out which dog is the reproducer?
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WayOutWest
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« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2015, 08:13:58 pm » |
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The average hog hunter will never keep enough dogs to find out. Where Rednose is coming from is the APBT guys from past. It was nothing for them to keep 60 to 80 dogs so they could keep a whole litter and try em all. They only way you would know was to breed em and try em.
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TheRednose
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« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2015, 08:14:58 pm » |
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You guys are confusing me. I can't afford to breed every sibling of every good dog I come across. I do understand what you saying about others from the cross being better reproducers but how do you go about finding this out? I will ALWAYS start by breeding the best dog from a particular cross and likely won't consider a mediocre dog at all. How do ya'll figure out which dog is the reproducer?
Agree about breeding the best, but what happens if that dog doesn't produce, do you try his brother or do you just keep breeding the one who doesn't produce? That is my question to you. You would always breed the best first no doubt but if he doesn't produce and he has a brother who is a good dog too, you wouldn't try him? |
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oconee
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« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2015, 08:30:57 pm » |
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Its HIGHLY unlikely that his brother would be alive if he wasn't what I was looking for. I understand and I have ran into this senerio but I know plenty of guys with plotts from the same bloodline I use so I could find a male. And truth is, I would assume outcross than breed to something I wasn't excited about just to see what happened. To each their own!
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TheRednose
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« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2015, 08:42:55 pm » |
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Its HIGHLY unlikely that his brother would be alive if he wasn't what I was looking for. I understand and I have ran into this senerio but I know plenty of guys with plotts from the same bloodline I use so I could find a male. And truth is, I would assume outcross than breed to something I wasn't excited about just to see what happened. To each their own!
Understood but who said his brother is something you wouldn't use, just said he was not the superstar of the litter. He could still be a good one couldn't he? |
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TheRednose
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« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2015, 08:45:00 pm » |
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Its HIGHLY unlikely that his brother would be alive if he wasn't what I was looking for. I understand and I have ran into this senerio but I know plenty of guys with plotts from the same bloodline I use so I could find a male. And truth is, I would assume outcross than breed to something I wasn't excited about just to see what happened. To each their own!
Understood but who said his brother is something you wouldn't use, just said he was not the superstar of the litter. He could still be a good one couldn't he? A cull is a cull in my opinion and by no means am I saying breed a cull no matter how good of a litter it came from, I was just saying that if the superstar doesn't produce sometimes his good brother though he may not be as good might be the producer of the bunch is all. |
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Reuben
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« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2015, 08:47:49 pm » |
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You guys are confusing me. I can't afford to breed every sibling of every good dog I come across. I do understand what you saying about others from the cross being better reproducers but how do you go about finding this out? I will ALWAYS start by breeding the best dog from a particular cross and likely won't consider a mediocre dog at all. How do ya'll figure out which dog is the reproducer?
I agree...hover rednose does make a good point...if the line is good but the dog does not reproduce...rather than destroy what has already been gained...breed to the second best and hopefully there will be some good to great pups...I wouldn't make that dog the hub of my breeding program... at the beginning when I was going to breed my own dogs on account that there were so many culls out there...I had culls...but I also produced a once in a lifetime dog for what I perceived to be one...well...my logic told me he would not reproduce a high percentage of great dogs because he was 1/2 mt cur and 1/2 bmc...even though I was told that BMC was a good dog I hunted with him a few years later and I would have culled him...so knowing this I only bred that once in a lifetime dog once as a step towards purifying and improving the line I was starting...even though I did produce many dogs I could take by themselves and were as good as a dog can be...none had the brain power of my dog I called yeller...but those dogs were bred to hunt and reproduce... I will stick my neck out and say all the pups I kept made keepers...the difference between those and the ones I bred was minimal...but I bred what I thought were the very best... for me it is breeding the very best and keeping them related...just one grand parent that is scatter bred and not related can lower the percentages of good puppies produced... somewhere towards the end I bred a good looking florida to one of my gyps and I culled them all..If I had liked several pups I would have bred the best to another one of my dogs and then a pup from that cross would have been a player in the program...but the plan did not work out...but breeding within the family all pups I kept up with made dogs... testing for natural ability at a young age goes a long ways...and keeping the very best is of most importance... |
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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Reuben
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« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2015, 08:59:01 pm » |
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it is very hard and expensive for one person to breed a line of dogs not to mention all the work involved...I once talked to 2 different doggers about working together and developing a line...one started with dogs almost the same as mine and the other with a few...
went south pretty quick on account we had different ideas on which direction to go...
one breeds all mixes in his dogs...kind of like a football team...and he has lots of places to hunt and catches lots of hogs...
the other dogger started with about the same as mine...after years his dogs were smaller and longer coated...some things I do not like...his dogs were bred tight and were very good dogs and they hunted with you more than mine would...
I reckon the point I am making is that there are lots of ways to breed dogs...
and what I would hunt others would cull because they were too long range too open etc...etc...
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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TheRednose
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« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2015, 09:08:49 pm » |
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I agree...hover rednose does make a good point...if the line is good but the dog does not reproduce...rather than destroy what has already been gained...breed to the second best and hopefully there will be some good to great pups...I wouldn't make that dog the hub of my breeding program...
Here is where I am going to have to disagree with you my friend. If you have a good dog from a great litter who's ancestors were all good from that family and he or she has proven to be very PREPOTENT and you don't make him the hub of your program.... But hey like I said I am a novice to the hog dog world, still trying to learn and hear all of you more experienced guys theories and ideas. I have an open mind, I like what a lot of you have to say. Thanks for sharing. |
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oconee
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« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2015, 09:11:09 pm » |
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I understand what ya'll are saying and truth is, its mostly like Reuben said. Its hard and expensive for one man to keep a solid breeding program by himself. I can't keep and breed them all but I do see what ya'll are saying. Take care
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