On Breeding Better Dogs

[TheRednose]

I understand what ya'll are saying and truth is, its mostly like Reuben said.   Its hard and expensive for one man to keep a solid breeding program by himself.    I can't keep and breed them all but I do see what ya'll are saying.    Take care

Great point, and at the end of the day I would always error on the side of breeding the best dog as you have stated. Thanks again Rueben for all of the info and you as well Oconee, I definitely respect your standards.

[Judge peel]

It's all a educated guess. But that's what keeps me up at night not whiskey and wild women lol


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[spazhogdog]

Out of curiosity do you all put more emphasis on the gyp or male dog? I know the goal is to improve on a dog abilities but when breeding to that "superstar" most of the time pups do not truly measure up the parent. Too me superstars are freaks, and there isn't very many of them. Or would you rather breed to a very solid producing dog?

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[Slim9797]

Ok y'all talk about line breeding a family of dogs vs scatter bred. My question is how is line breeding essentially any different than getting say 6 dogs on my yard (none being related in any way and most of them being crossed up mutts) that I sure enough like and think are worthy of breeding, breed them, and start a "family" of dogs and start line breeding from there. Seems like most of you guys are dead set on pure bred dogs. But the few old timers I've had the pleasure of talking with will tell you. Way back when, you bred best to best. They didn't care if it was a black lab/ pug mix. If it hunted good it got bred. Seems to me a good dog will produce good pups. 2 good dogs should breed a higher percentage of good pups. But I'm not sure how breeding a gyp to her dads litter mate brother raises your odds. Or why people have converted to that method when scatter bred best to best dogs worked for people for a long time

[Black Streak]

Ok y'all talk about line breeding a family of dogs vs scatter bred. My question is how is line breeding essentially any different than getting say 6 dogs on my yard (none being related in any way and most of them being crossed up mutts) that I sure enough like and think are worthy of breeding, breed them, and start a "family" of dogs and start line breeding from there. Seems like most of you guys are dead set on pure bred dogs. But the few old timers I've had the pleasure of talking with will tell you. Way back when, you bred best to best. They didn't care if it was a black lab/ pug mix. If it hunted good it got bred. Seems to me a good dog will produce good pups. 2 good dogs should breed a higher percentage of good pups. But I'm not sure how breeding a gyp to her dads litter mate brother raises your odds. Or why people have converted to that method when scatter bred best to best dogs worked for people for a long time

Slim9797,   Google punnett square calculator.   I really think you would be best served in having a good fundamental understanding of the punnett square and how it works.

[l.h.cracker]

The gist is if you don't know the history of said dog/bloodline you have no idea what that dog will produce.A tight line of dogs bred best to best for Many generations is way more likely to produce themselves. Because even if there grandma or grandpa pops up they were good dogs as well not a pug or a lab.

[l.h.cracker]

I have a similar question to spaz's if you're trying to get more of the dominant gene of a certain dog say the sire then to start your line would you first breed him to a great bitch of his line then breed him again to best daughter?This is the approach I am going to use and was wondering if any of you started similarly.Roles can be reversed if it's the bitch you're looking to duplicate. Wouldn't this step be essential in creating said dog again?

[l.h.cracker]

Even if you were going to cross breed to another line of quality dogs as you did Reuben wouldn't you purify the genes of the dog you choose the same way?Back to best daughter and granddaughter so on and so forth?

[Reuben]

Even if you were going to cross breed to another line of quality dogs as you did Reuben wouldn't you purify the genes of the dog you choose the same way?Back to best daughter and granddaughter so on and so forth?

I would do it just as you are saying...but I wouldn't concentrate too much on the first cross...I would hope to purify the gene pool somewhat before I chose one as the one I want to reproduce...I think there are more than a few ways to breed better dogs...

[Goose87]

Ok y'all talk about line breeding a family of dogs vs scatter bred. My question is how is line breeding essentially any different than getting say 6 dogs on my yard (none being related in any way and most of them being crossed up mutts) that I sure enough like and think are worthy of breeding, breed them, and start a "family" of dogs and start line breeding from there. Seems like most of you guys are dead set on pure bred dogs. But the few old timers I've had the pleasure of talking with will tell you. Way back when, you bred best to best. They didn't care if it was a black lab/ pug mix. If it hunted good it got bred. Seems to me a good dog will produce good pups. 2 good dogs should breed a higher percentage of good pups. But I'm not sure how breeding a gyp to her dads litter mate brother raises your odds. Or why people have converted to that method when scatter bred best to best dogs worked for people for a long time

Everybody has to start somewhere with something, YOU just have to set your standard and cull from there and keep crossing the offspring of those dogs back and forth until you get what you like.

[Reuben]

Ok y'all talk about line breeding a family of dogs vs scatter bred. My question is how is line breeding essentially any different than getting say 6 dogs on my yard (none being related in any way and most of them being crossed up mutts) that I sure enough like and think are worthy of breeding, breed them, and start a "family" of dogs and start line breeding from there. Seems like most of you guys are dead set on pure bred dogs. But the few old timers I've had the pleasure of talking with will tell you. Way back when, you bred best to best. They didn't care if it was a black lab/ pug mix. If it hunted good it got bred. Seems to me a good dog will produce good pups. 2 good dogs should breed a higher percentage of good pups. But I'm not sure how breeding a gyp to her dads litter mate brother raises your odds. Or why people have converted to that method when scatter bred best to best dogs worked for people for a long time

Slim...I believe quite a few of the old timers believed in what was passed down from many generations of breeding animals...and way back then they probably had families of hogs, dogs, etc...and they probably had issues with breeding depression and realized it was due to too much indiscriminate inbreeding practices that was causing the majority of their problems...especially when they outcrossed and saw the problems to go away on the first outcross...so the old wives tale began...quite a few folks still breed that way...
not saying that is what happened...but that is what makes sense to me...

[Judge peel]

Breeding for a superstar dog will drive you nuts it's like a million dollar slot machine you have to pull ten thousand times. To make solid dogs to me I use a methods we learned in Sunday school. Each should search out its own kind and be evenly yolked   I do think that the pups in a whole favor the gyp more often then male jmo. I hate to say it but some times a gut feeling is better than every thing else but most of the time it's not lol. People will always say this way that way I say do what you think is the right path heck some times you just have to try stuff 


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[Goose87]

Out of curiosity do you all put more emphasis on the gyp or male dog? I know the goal is to improve on a dog abilities but when breeding to that "superstar" most of the time pups do not truly measure up the parent. Too me superstars are freaks, and there isn't very many of them. Or would you rather breed to a very solid producing dog?

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This is something I quite often think about, I've been blessed to be able to have several old timers I've gotten to know share their knowledge with me, I've spoken about this on numerous times and just about everyone of them all had the same responses, they've all built their breeding programs around good solid females, one man in particular who breeds English shorthair pointers that in all the years he's had dogs his entire breeding program has been based on 4 females, his theory is if a gyp has got what it takes to be a reproducer then she can be bred to any good dog (any within her line) and produce a high percentage of pups better than her and the sire. This same man has a gyp that he has won the purina high point bird dog in the country with, she was the best of her litter just excelled at everything naturally and after she won that title he bred her to a good male who was a known reproducer, the pups were sub par in his opinion and he had the gyp spayed, and only field trials and pleasure hunts her now, at first I thought he was crazy but this man has been at this for a long time and competition bird hunting is his thing and he has the accolades and accomplishments to back up such odd ways of doing things. So he must be doing something right.

[Goose87]

Another thing hog dog or hunting dog breeders can't grasp when it comes to bulldog men and the way they bred their dogs is the numbers the bulldog men had and the ways they could've "tested" their dogs, it's a whole lot easier and less time consuming to see what a litter of year old pups got when it can be done in the backyard and at your time and choosing than it is to haul them to the woods to see if their going to have it or not on multiple occasions. In return you can cull or breed more faster and have a quicker way of knowing what your dogs have or lack in a lot less time.

[l.h.cracker]

Not necessarily going for superstar's just a solid foundation of hog dogs in my yard so I don't have to search for them if a superstar comes from it then great but a solid dog is fine with me.

[Reuben]

Out of curiosity do you all put more emphasis on the gyp or male dog? I know the goal is to improve on a dog abilities but when breeding to that "superstar" most of the time pups do not truly measure up the parent. Too me superstars are freaks, and there isn't very many of them. Or would you rather breed to a very solid producing dog?

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I always kept the males for their size and power and hunting...turned over the females to improve on the line...

many breeders believe that the females are the most important even though the sire and dam contribute exactly 50 percent each...

but some say the female because she is connected to the pups and then the learned behavior before weaning...

I don't agree nor I disagree...but I do believe it is the effort that we as owners put into the pups before they are born and soon after...

[Judge peel]

Cracker that's pretty much me to that's kind of a pipe dream on them superstar dogs. If I get one great but Iam looking for things that make solid dogs in my eyes no one else's. But I don't breed much ether


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[Judge peel]

I agree with that last statement Ruben. Most of the things I do most guys will say not to do so I don't really pay much mind to what people say


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[oconee]

Not necessarily going for superstar's just a solid foundation of hog dogs in my yard so I don't have to search for them if a superstar comes from it then great but a solid dog is fine with me.

This is what everyone should say when breeding.    I think a lot of guys are missing our point of "line-breeding."    Its not about how tight you can breed its much more about staying within and family and using only the best from that family to move forward.      The goal is to someday look at a 6 gen pedigree and KNOW exactly what each dog on it could do and not be worried if any dog on the pedigree pops out of a litter. 

[Reuben]

Not necessarily going for superstar's just a solid foundation of hog dogs in my yard so I don't have to search for them if a superstar comes from it then great but a solid dog is fine with me.

I agree with this logic...








This is what everyone should say when breeding.    I think a lot of guys are missing our point of "line-breeding."    Its not about how tight you can breed its much more about staying within and family and using only the best from that family to move forward.      The goal is to someday look at a 6 gen pedigree and KNOW exactly what each dog on it could do and not be worried if any dog on the pedigree pops out of a litter.