On Breeding Better Dogs

[Black Streak]

Since each parent contributes 50% of the genes to the offspring, equal value should be placed on both since they both contribute equal amounts.        Seems like really good males are more common than really good females though, so a harder search for a good female might take place lol.         I don't believe you necessarily need to breed to a super star to get  a really good litter.   A sister might produce better pups do to the science behind passing on hereditary traits.   One dog might posses the traits as Dominate recessive while the sister might be Dominate Dominate for example.   There is a lot more science behind it but you get the point.   The point of line breeding to me is to try to make the traits you desire in a dog either Dominate Dominate or recessive recessive.     Get two dogs of the same family that line these genes up in the same manner as the other dog and you will have a higher percentage of pups that have the traits their mother and daddy did.     How these genes are expressed and clearly read and so on and so on is where it really starts getting complicated.          I'm no geneticist nor am I a breeder, nor have I spoken to an old man.   Just how it makes sense to me and how I naturally see it.         
   I think most everyone of you have made very good points that can stand firm on their own.       Being that I'm no geneticist,  If I was a breeder, i would rely heavily on the SWAG theory for most of my breeding lol.  I think that's all most of it really is anyway unless your into cloning.     When i say using the SWAG theory I don't mean just blindly going about breeding hoping for the best but using your best judgment, knowledge,  and gut feeling all at the same time.

[oconee]

Its disturbing to me that so many people keep suggesting that breeding is a "crap-shoot."     I'm not denying the fact that some barn burners have been produced by accident breedings but to place our beliefs as dogmen in this ideology it sad for me to read.

[WayOutWest]

Within the game dog world it has always been harder to get the great broodbitch. When you had that it was much easier to find that good male who lined up. I guess I can't speak for hogdogs on this but if you are starting out and you have a chance to get a good bitch I would take it as it gives you a chance to get a whole litter to choose from rather than one pup from a six week old litter. Also I believe that it is easier to keep consistency within one breed rather than the crosses. That doesn't mean you can't get good hogdogs from crosses, it just means you may have to take a longer view in your breeding program. The first cross may just be a bridge to get you where you eventually want to be. But the eye of the man pulling the strings is always a huge part of success. A good judge of dogs can make dogs out of anything but a poor judge of dogs will ruin the best line in a few generations. These are my opinions on this topic alone.

[spazhogdog]

I understand why percentages are high in line bred dogs, for

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[spazhogdog]

Lineage traits mean a lot. I had a gyp we bred for replacement dogs and had good success with her line breeding and one out cross. But what tells on a line of dogs is the produce of the outcross dogs. Her line bred off springs

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[Judge peel]

Wayoutwest that's a good view. Oconee the method is not a crap shoot it's the hope of the very best in each litter that you have. you can paper chart all you want but we are not the one spinning the DNA wheel God is. There is not a set pattern to breed that will ensure anything other than a pup the rest is between God and that individual pup and a touch of what we do imo


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[spazhogdog]

I hate smart phones.  Line bred offspring are producing but the out cross pups are different. But was a necessity to keep the line going. We have kept all the pups with in four people and it is neat to watch and keep track of a line that was already started but we kept going.

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[oconee]

Judge just because you refuse to be discipline with your breeding program it doesn't mean we are wrong for putting out best thoughts into trying to improve our dogs.   I refuse to start anotger debate with you but YOU ARE WRONG for thinking specialized breeding programs are no more consistent than "breed n hope" programs.    If you've never had experience with a tightly well bred line of dogs then I would save your opinions for other topics.   Your thoughts undermind thousands of years of work by everyone from game chicken breeders to race horse breeders after the triple crown.    Breeding is not a joke to most people.

[Judge peel]

Bubba I ain't trying to debate with you as you once said this is a open forum and you must have thick skin. Simple making statements as you are sorry you can't handle my thoughts I guess everything I say makes your skin crawl lol. Just happy that your not calling me names


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[Reuben]

Within the game dog world it has always been harder to get the great broodbitch. When you had that it was much easier to find that good male who lined up. I guess I can't speak for hogdogs on this but if you are starting out and you have a chance to get a good bitch I would take it as it gives you a chance to get a whole litter to choose from rather than one pup from a six week old litter. Also I believe that it is easier to keep consistency within one breed rather than the crosses. That doesn't mean you can't get good hogdogs from crosses, it just means you may have to take a longer view in your breeding program. The first cross may just be a bridge to get you where you eventually want to be. But the eye of the man pulling the strings is always a huge part of success. A good judge of dogs can make dogs out of anything but a poor judge of dogs will ruin the best line in a few generations. These are my opinions on this topic alone.

Amen to what you said...

I am pretty excited about those 1/2 Pocohonta plott pups I have...5 pups made it...one was missing out of the brood box...but the 4 I kept I like...I know the male contributed quite a bit...but that plott gyp brought a lot to the table...I wanted to go with mt cur but too many are bred for squirrel and they have not been proved for hog and bear as they were originally bred to do...there are a few lines out there that might work...but I hit the jackpot with a well bred line of plott dogs that are known for hog and bear...

[Judge peel]

Ruben there was a fella I had talked to one time that new a guy down in temple area that was known for very well bred mnt curs that where way rough. Do you or any one that who that was. Most of the mnt curs I have seen have been good dogs


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[liefalwepon]

I think oconee is right about breeding science being able to produce good dogs consistently, but historically this works best with large numbers of dogs, when the Germans refined their dog breeds they had kennels with over a thousand dogs at times, when you're breeding the best to the best out of a thousand dogs you can refine the gene pool much faster than if you are breeding best to best of 30 dogs, when its 30 dogs it's much more of a crap shoot like judge says, even if you are working with line bred dogs. A lot of our hunting breeds in the U.S. Have way more diversity in the gene pool than German bred dogs, some of the books I've seen that promote inbreeding and line breeding without outcrossing don't take into account the breeding history of the dog breed. It's a shame the American hunting dog breeders from a generation or two ago didn't write more books, im always curious about stories of dog sub breeds kept in one family for generations that have not experienced inbreeding depression. Some of the stories of Florida or cracker curs come to mind

Id like to see Cajun chime in and tell us what percentage of his litters make sure nuff hog dogs, not to put him on the spot but because he's a reputable breeder working with a consistent line of dogs with a German history, Mtn curs and cats I believe have exponentially more genetic diversity just judging by their color variations, maybe bmcs less so because they have been bred for color

Breeding a high percentage of quality dogs from a small family of dogs is probably harder than you think or more people would be doing it

Creating your own breed seems like an exhausting amount of work, I'm sure during the creation of some of the newer breeds like the Dogo they had hundreds of dogs at times or culled through hundreds in a year. Once your gene pool has been refined to produce mostly what your looking for you could reduce your numbers down to 15-30 but the less dogs you have the more likely you are to wind up in a corner and have to outcross


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[Reuben]

IMO the kemmer mt curs are inbred and giving them a shot of some other good hunting dogs is helpful...some of the very best mt curs were rumored to have hound bred in...there was a line of busher sam dogs that had plot bred in...the Texas Smoke probably had walker bred in on account I saw a walker colored saw 2 walker colored pups...but those were some of the best mt curs I new about...

[WayOutWest]

I have been to dog yards with 150 dogs and on down. I have found that a good dog man with 20 dogs has just as many good dogs as the guy with 60 or 80. That is because he had to really think thru any breeding he did. He would be keeping the majority cause he didn't believe in selling to the public. Those guys with so many dogs produced a lot of pups and many times just sold the a bunch to keep doing what they were doing. Not saying they didn't make good dogs you know some were bred because of paper. I myself have always kept a small yard, never more than a dozen and usually less and out of that only a couple of breeders. The rest were prospects so I know how hard it is to work with a small yard but thru the years I found a few good dogmen that thought like I did and I never had to pay for a pup or breeding I did. I also offered pups or breedings to these same folks in return. I was able to put out some very hi quality dogs but I definitely put a few culls and there were litters that did not work at all. On almost every breeding  they were linebred with tightening up being the motivation!

[oconee]

I have been to dog yards with 150 dogs and on down. I have found that a good dog man with 20 dogs has just as many good dogs as the guy with 60 or 80. That is because he had to really think thru any breeding he did. He would be keeping the majority cause he didn't believe in selling to the public. Those guys with so many dogs produced a lot of pups and many times just sold the a bunch to keep doing what they were doing. Not saying they didn't make good dogs you know some were bred because of paper. I myself have always kept a small yard, never more than a dozen and usually less and out of that only a couple of breeders. The rest were prospects so I know how hard it is to work with a small yard but thru the years I found a few good dogmen that thought like I did and I never had to pay for a pup or breeding I did. I also offered pups or breedings to these same folks in return. I was able to put out some very hi quality dogs but I definitely put a few culls and there were litters that did not work at all. On almost every breeding  they were linebred with tightening up being the motivation!

I think me and you are looking thru the same eyes.

[liefalwepon]

I have been to dog yards with 150 dogs and on down. I have found that a good dog man with 20 dogs has just as many good dogs as the guy with 60 or 80. That is because he had to really think thru any breeding he did. He would be keeping the majority cause he didn't believe in selling to the public. Those guys with so many dogs produced a lot of pups and many times just sold the a bunch to keep doing what they were doing. Not saying they didn't make good dogs you know some were bred because of paper. I myself have always kept a small yard, never more than a dozen and usually less and out of that only a couple of breeders. The rest were prospects so I know how hard it is to work with a small yard but thru the years I found a few good dogmen that thought like I did and I never had to pay for a pup or breeding I did. I also offered pups or breedings to these same folks in return. I was able to put out some very hi quality dogs but I definitely put a few culls and there were litters that did not work at all. On almost every breeding  they were linebred with tightening up being the motivation!

So the guys you know that breed successfully with smaller numbers of dogs outcross? A or are they strictly line bred?


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[Judge peel]

Ruben I have liked the kemmer cur from the ones I have seen. My best dog is kemmer x Lacy. I have seen a few papered ones hunted pretty good look good to


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[TheRednose]

Out of curiosity do you all put more emphasis on the gyp or male dog? I know the goal is to improve on a dog abilities but when breeding to that "superstar" most of the time pups do not truly measure up the parent. Too me superstars are freaks, and there isn't very many of them. Or would you rather breed to a very solid producing dog?

To answer your question a good producing dog by all means. That was the point I was trying to make earlier, if you find a producer whether he was a superstar or only just a good dog and you thought high enough of him to keep him, you go with the prepotent dog and IMO unlike what other people have said you breed everything you have to him. Those are the types of dogs you get your superstars from.

Again I am not saying breed to every littermate of every good dog you have, what I am saying is you have to understand that performance and production are two different things. You have to keep your standards but if they have met your standards you breed to the dog who produces better period.

After reading all of your posts I think you have a good understanding of this.

[WayOutWest]

Liefalwepon, nearly every successful breeder I know has used linebreeding or inbreeding. The only time an outcross was used was when they felt it was necessary. I can't say how that translates to dogs that find hogs but there are issues that come up with bulldogs too tight bred.

[TheRednose]

Liefalwepon, nearly every successful breeder I know has used linebreeding or inbreeding. The only time an outcross was used was when they felt it was necessary. I can't say how that translates to dogs that find hogs but there are issues that come up with bulldogs too tight bred.

Yup the same with the breeders that I have spoke with as well. Also Wayout have you noticed how some lines just stand up to inbreeding much better than others. I thought it was maybe because the dogs they started with were further but that is not always the case.