Breeding Better Dogs 101...

[TexasHogDogs]

You answered the question perfectly!  Thanks

[oconee]

Look kid, I have no ideal what you wanting from me and truthfully don't care.    I offered to show the junk I have bred and that all I can do.  This disagreement started when you said all dogs traced back far enough will not be kin.   That is BS and I asked you to explain how a breed of 1000's evolved from 42 dogs and their ancestors are not kin.  You have yet to explain your statement and have only ran your mouth since.    Now I don't care if you every explain but at least shut up.   Now some will say dogs were added throughout the history and I'm by no means gullible enough to think they didn't but your statement said "traced back far enough" well you can't get any further back than the beginning of the breed and I can guarantee you them first dogs were kin.

[justincorbell]

You answered the question perfectly!  Thanks

Glad im not the only one thinkin this

[justincorbell]

Oconee, you telling someone to shut up is rather comical.

[oconee]

Oconee, you telling someone to shut up is rather comical.

Your right!!    Shut up!!!   Ha ha ha ha ha

[l.h.cracker]

Oconee, you telling someone to shut up is rather comical.

Your right!!    Shut up!!!   Ha ha ha ha ha

I would like to see the list of great dogs you have bred.  You youself.  I would also like to see this to back up your talk.  I can produce mine with history to back it up.  I can provide proof of mine beyond a shadow of a doubt if need be.  Show us some proof to back yourself and your theory up.  Show some dogs your breeding produced threw out history.   
Wow lol!

[TexasHogDogs]

Johannes (later known as George) Plott arrived in America from what is now Germany in 1750. He was the son of a gamekeeper, and the five dogs he brought with him were bred to hunt wild boars in the forest. The dogs were probably a mix of Hanoverian Schweisshund and other breeds, but no one knows for sure exactly what they looked like.  The voyage from Germany to North America in 1750 was a long one, but Johannes Plott’s five dogs weathered it well.  Johannes’ brother Enoch (or Enos) wasn’t so lucky.  He died and was buried at sea. Alone in a foreign land, Johannes arrived in New Bern, North Carolina in 1750 with little more than his pack of dogs and a determination to make a better life.

Not much is known about George Plott’s early years in America; he moved frequently and took his dogs with him. By 1801, his son Henry lived in Haywood County, North Carolina on Plott Creek flanked by the towering mountains that would eventually be called the Plott Balsams. By the end of his life, Henry Plott owned 1,700 acres in western North Carolina and it was here that the Plott Hound became a distinct breed.

Painting of Plott family cabin by Willie Morgan. Courtesy of Bob Plott.
Painting of Plott family cabin by Willie Morgan. Courtesy of Bob Plott.
From their first years in America, the Plott family bred their dogs for work. They needed a fearless and strong dog that was smart enough not to kill livestock. Henry’s grandson Montraville (1850-1924), used his Plott Hounds to hunt bears.  Bear dogs need both courage and stamina.  Montraville improved the breed by adding some cur to the mix and creating the “Leopard Plott,” a dog with a bluish-gray spotted coat. People soon traveled for miles to buy Montraville’s Plotts.

Montraville Plott.  Courtesy of Bob Plott.
Montraville Plott. Courtesy of Bob Plott.
Montraville Plott’s two sons were both devoted dog breeders, but they had very different methods. John Plott was interested in keeping the breed pure, while Vaughn Plott (known as Von) felt that how the dogs hunted was more important than how they looked. The debate about keeping the Plott line pure or adding in other breeds continues to this day.

Von Plott was a big game guide who did much to popularize Plott Hounds. Von and his dogs led hundreds of visiting sportsmen on bear hunts throughout the mountains. As hunters returned home with stories about this North Carolina dog, the Plott Hound’s reputation grew. Von’s dogs were great trackers, but more importantly they were intelligent. They knew what to do on the hunt, were aggressive enough to stay with a bear, and smart enough not to get killed.

John Plott was quiet and reserved in comparison to his brother Von, but he too played a key role in keeping the breed alive. The Plott brothers were both fiercely dedicated to the perpetuation of the Plott breed though they had different methods and beliefs that are still debated to this day.

By the 1930s, many people outside the Plott family also owned Plott Hounds. Although Appalachian families had owned Plotts for generations, few of them thought seriously about breeding and maintaining the line until Gola Ferguson, Howe Taylor Crockett, and Isaiah Kidd entered the scene.

Gola Ferguson and his dog Jap.  Courtesy of Bob Plott.
Gola Ferguson and his dog Jap. Courtesy of Bob Plott.
Gola Ferguson was raised in Bryson City, North Carolina and loved hunting. After attending what later became Western Carolina University, he worked as a farmer, sheriff, surveyor, and school principal. Gola obtained his first dogs from the Plott, Cable and Blevins families and his animals quickly became the dog of choice for many hunters. His two most famous dogs were Boss and Tige. When the United Kennel Club recognized the Plott Hound as a breed in 1946, 79 of 81 recognized dogs could be traced to Boss and Tige’s bloodlines.

Taylor Crockett got his first two dogs from Samuel Plott when he was just 16 years old. From this small beginning he developed a pack of “old-time” Plotts. His dogs were fierce on the hunt, but gentle with other animals and children. Crockett’s animals were famous for their tenacity and determination on the hunt.  Although Plotts had traditionally been used as bear dogs, Crockett was a fan of boar hunting. He trained his dogs to hunt boars, and also helped get the Russian boar recognized as a big game animal in North Carolina.

Isaiah Kidd was from West Virginia and he got his first Plotts from visiting North Carolina timber cutters. In the late 1920s, Kidd purchased dogs from Von and John Plott, Gola Ferguson, and others. Kidd spent the next forty years breeding Plott Hounds and was a pioneer in scientific dog breeding. He kept careful breeding records and developed his own strain of Plotts. His dogs were known for their gray, almost zebra-like brindle coats. Kidd was the first scientific breeder of Plott Hounds and his work helped shape the standards for the breed.

Despite the fact that Plotts came to America in 1750, it was a long time before they were recognized as an official breed. The United Kennel Club recognized Plotts in 1946, and since then there have been bitter disagreements about what a true Plott should look like. Arguments have raged about the dog’s origins, the amount of out breeding permitted, the proper color of the dog’s coat, and even the use of the word “hound” in the dog’s title!

[TexasHogDogs]

Good Lord man.  Note the five dogs Johanna's brought over how they where bred.  None pure.  I am sure the Plott bro had hell perfecting the line .  its no telling what all went into it before they got it perfected and now known as the Plott Hounds.  There were several friends that crossed in trying to perfect their line.  A line don't start out pure it has to be built first.

[Black Streak]

Ol Oconee sure does have a way of bring out some good information. 
   TexasHogDogs, I've really enjoyed your replies and information.  Always a pleasure of mine reading what you share.
 

[TexasHogDogs]

Thanks man,  am not trying to preach are act like I know much of nothing.  I hope folks don't see me as bad.  I just know where I been what I done , what I've learned from great dog breeders great friends and people threw the years.  One thing about it am not gonna lie are save some ones feeling you are either right are wrong no in between thats how I was taught.  If am wrong I be the first to admit it and shake your hand.  Same as it use to be I didn't get mad when someone out dogged me I wanted some of what he's got lol.  When I talk about inbreeding man we done it I saw first hand what happened no hear say no second third hand info we saw it and am talking TRIPLE inbred and more. Same goes for line breeding seen what it did loved what it did learned when its time to go out and when to go another time in all you got to do is listen to what your dogs are telling you not what u want to do that's where the mistake is made sometimes a line killer that take double the work to get it staighten back  out.   Same as full performace crosses some worked great some didn't  , learn from ur mistake. Each of these tools have purposes each are ment for different things just like one wrench won't fit all bolts.  This was years ago man.  Times have changed at least for me they have these dogs I got I will never be able to get to their peak level because I really don't have the patiences  I use to have in the bulldog game man it takes years and years.  Look at the Plott people look what they went threw its just unreal when you are fully dedicated and time are just way different now. 

Anyway good luck to all.

[oconee]

You can copy/paste all the articles you want and the fact of the matter is the father back you trace dogs the closer kin they will be.  This article is referring to a very small group of men and dogs.   There are thousands of men and dogs making up this breed now.  This is common sense that they dogs in the beginning would be closed related.   If you start with few and in the end yof have many the few had to be bred together as well as their offspring, thus making them kin.   That is the argument and you are wrong so get on Google and copy someone else's article you know nothing about to try and make yourself look smart.

[Scott]

Where's Barlow? This thread is right in his wheelhouse...

[TexasHogDogs]

You must be one of those new and improved kind of stumps.  You know the new models. I'm gone have seen and heard enough.

[BA-IV]

Where's Barlow? This thread is right in his wheelhouse...

No doubt!

[liefalwepon]

You can copy/paste all the articles you want and the fact of the matter is the father back you trace dogs the closer kin they will be.  This article is referring to a very small group of men and dogs.   There are thousands of men and dogs making up this breed now.  This is common sense that they dogs in the beginning would be closed related.   If you start with few and in the end yof have many the few had to be bred together as well as their offspring, thus making them kin.   That is the argument and you are wrong so get on Google and copy someone else's article you know nothing about to try and make yourself look smart.

If you are talking about closer kin in the framework of time and history, like Adam and Eve then yes, if all breeds of dogs came from a pair of wolves at one time, then in general as time goes on the population as a whole becomes less closely related as it fans out and gets farther from the original individuals, but most breeds of dogs were started with a few different breeds that were crossed to make a small group of closely related dogs and then the population of the breed expands from there. I have a couple books on the plott bros but have not read them yet, so I don't know about Plotts specifically but, if they didn't start with different breeds of dogs or with a group of scatter bred dogs then they didn't make their own breed, they just refined one or made their own strain. I know breeds like the Dogo, the Tosa Inu, Catahoula, etc were made from from unrelated breeds, sure they went back to the "Adam and eve" of dogs but they would still be considered unrelated just like i would be considered unrelated to you oconee. All the breeds I just mentioned started with breeds of totally unrelated dogs that were bred together to make a small group of closely related dogs that  as time goes on and the population of the breed grows, becomes less closely related. Even the Kemmer cur started from a small selected group of Mtn curs that would be considered less closely related, that were then bred to be more closely related and as the population grew, it became generally less closely related, and I would consider kemmers a strain of mountain cur, not a separate breed of dog. In theory to make a new breed you would have to start with a small group of animals less closely related, breed them to each other, making them more closely related, and then as the population grew and they spread out into different peoples hands and spread geographically they would become less closely related. I think the terms can make this concept confusing, because in general we are all as closely related as we are ever going to be, as time goes on each generation of humans becomes less closely related as we get farther from Adam and Eve but individuals or groups of people can become more closely related by interbreeding or inbreeding, hopefully there's not too much of that going on. I have always wondered if the royalty of the world, line bred themselves not just to create stronger ties but more robust and successful heirs to their kingdoms

[Reuben]

That was excellent lief...

If we can create great Danes and weenie dogs to poodles and old English sheep dogs from wolves then there is a lot more to genes as to what is already known...not long ago the highly educated believed one thing on what created brindle and now there are other theories from the same folks...I would explain it but it is way over my head...

[Black Streak]

You can copy/paste all the articles you want and the fact of the matter is the father back you trace dogs the closer kin they will be.  This article is referring to a very small group of men and dogs.   There are thousands of men and dogs making up this breed now.  This is common sense that they dogs in the beginning would be closed related.   If you start with few and in the end yof have many the few had to be bred together as well as their offspring, thus making them kin.   That is the argument and you are wrong so get on Google and copy someone else's article you know nothing about to try and make yourself look smart.

    Oconee, I seen that article as a tool to dispell some of the things you are saying about the origin of plotts.  Most of everything you have posted on this thread you try to back up with a book or two.  Then when THD copies and pasts an article that doesn't give with what your saying, you claim it's someone else's work and belittle him for it all the while you running back to a book you bought as your own proof.  What a hypocrite and poor looser.         You and Ruben are two of a kind.  Both of you by into what each other say.  I really have been waiting for you to see Ruben as most of us do

[Black Streak]

That was excellent lief...

If we can create great Danes and weenie dogs to poodles and old English sheep dogs from wolves then there is a lot more to genes as to what is already known...not long ago the highly educated believed one thing on what created brindle and now there are other theories from the same folks...I would explain it but it is way over my head...

After this thread your actions totally differ from what you preach.  I think most things are over your head when it comes to dogs.     Then you want to defend your actions by sighting things that  do not fall in line with what you have preached before.  What a hypocrite. 

[Reuben]

I don't think you understand where I am coming from...all I am saying is that there is so much to a gene pool we do not understand if we can  get so many different breeds from a wolve...just something to think about...

[Black Streak]

I understand exactly  what you say.   You just contradict yourself and don't put forth in real life what you claim to be on here.       Some people see and do things successful one way, others another, but you say one thing and do another then sight reasons that go back on what you claim to have stood for when asked why the two don't match.    Then you want to call me out for my integrity.  Lol that's awsome