Breeding Better Dogs 101...

[7Mhunter]

Just one comment and it's on the walk hunting remark. I can rig, walk, road, and cast my dogs. I walk hunt mostly due to necessity. Some of my spots are a bunch of 2-300 acre places put together and it's just not practical to try to drive an atv through all them places going in and out of gates and down roads. I don't think I've came across any dog that "had to be walked" for it to hunt. Either  a dog hunts or it don't. Now my dogs might not cast like say the tuskers guys dogs cast. But they will cast. And cover ground out of the truck without me moving.


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By walk hunting I mean like actually having to walk the dog. Not casting and going to them that's a whole different story. I enjoy watching a dog work. But I know some peoples dog you literally have to walk off the garmin in a coon hunters term. Feet warmers in a hog hunter term.

[hyan]

Mike n underdog got a great breeding program hopefully they'll chime in!?

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[YELLOWBLACKMASK]

Best to Best and Cull the rest.

Find something that performs to your expectations........and breed them to something even better. 

From conception to grave, always ask more of your dog and never be satisfied until it delivers.

Decide early....Tool or Pet, then utilize accordingly. (Doesn't mean cruelty). Working dogs deserve the time and care if they put theirs in.

Sharp shovels. Don't lie to yourself due to looks or attachments. If it doesn't work.......IT DOESN'T WORK!  Scrub and hit the drawing board again. 

Several generations of strict trial and error and you should have something to be proud of. 

[oconee]

Best to Best and Cull the rest.

Find something that performs to your expectations........and breed them to something even better. 

From conception to grave, always ask more of your dog and never be satisfied until it delivers.

Decide early....Tool or Pet, then utilize accordingly. (Doesn't mean cruelty). Working dogs deserve the time and care if they put theirs in.

Sharp shovels. Don't lie to yourself due to looks or attachments. If it doesn't work.......IT DOESN'T WORK!  Scrub and hit the drawing board again. 

Several generations of strict trial and error and you should have something to be proud of. 

I agree with VERY LITTLE of this post.   The part about being honest with yourself might be the only part.

[Bryant]

Just a few quick thoughts about something I'm passionate about..


If your breeding two dogs in hopes of getting something better than your starting with, then your starting with the wrong ones.  Breeding should be more about re-producing one or two great dogs, then trying to put something together and hope for the best.

Having said that, some breedings just won't work.  Can't be blind and make excuses for what happens.

Also have to breed for your own use.  No dog will ever please every hunter as we all have different expectations.  Best way if possible is to keep entire litters to evaluate.  Some will be better than others.  If you can't keep them all, try to find people who hunt exactly like you do.  If your breeding casting dogs, knowing how they hunt by being raised by someone who roads does you little good.


Evaluating dogs based on the next generation is different than evaluating based on simply which dog makes the best hunting dog.  For example, slow starters begat slow starters.  Just because a dog finishes out really nice doesn't mean I'm interested in breeding that dog if it took him/her three years to get there.  Then prepotency comes into play, etc...

Know that not all breedings and pups will make good dogs.  Have a goal, but know that the end result will be basically unobtainable.  There will never be complete litters of perfect dogs.

Listen to others and more importantly WATCH others.  Find out who's raising consistent litters of good dogs and pay attention to what they're doing. 

Understand that for every desirable trait you breed a dog for (especially in outcrosses) that your also bringing in all the undesirables.  Unfortunately breeding dogs isn't like mixing paint where you take a little of this and a little of that and end up with a perfect recipe.  As an example, know that you can't simply cross rough and loose and end up with something in between.  You may get a few, but the majority are going to be either rough...or loose. 

 

[parker49]

if we all knew as much as we think we  know about breeding consistant working dogs good dogs would be about 10 cents a piece they'd be so many of m .....  breeding better  dogs  is basically isolateing certaing traits ........

[UNDERDOG]

if we all knew as much as we think we  know about breeding consistant working dogs good dogs would be about 10 cents a piece they'd be so many of m ..... 

truth ....

[UNDERDOG]

Mike n underdog got a great breeding program hopefully they'll chime in!?

Mike breeds them.....i just use them. 

[Goose87]

I think the most important factor is being honest with yourself, a dog man truly knows if what he has or bred up is what he likes and if it isn't then he will do what's necessary to move forward, there isn't a dog man alive who started out with a wolf, every body has to start somewhere and it might be getting some really good bred dogs from someone and then breeding for and selecting the things you like and putting your own twist on things or it might be starting with crosses and selectively culling and breeding for what YOU like, there is no definitive guide to breeding the best dogs, there's plenty of legwork, experiments, and trial and error that has already been done that we can go off of.

[Reuben]

breeding better dogs in my opinion has to do with paying attention even to the smallest of details....doing our best to get in the puppies minds to decide which is the keeper etc...we need to have that burning desire to have the very best...spend many hours reading about dogs and spend enough time with the pups to see how they work and play...

in breeding the best within a family of dogs...the cream will rise to the top...

Remember...if you have to feed many tracks to make a dog you can expect the same thing with the offspring...you might get lucky a few times but you are headed in the wrong direction...there is one time when I will do that...If I were out of dogs in my family of dogs to breed then I would look past that not so good dog from within that said family and look more at the family and breed him or her and pick from the offspring very carefully...and I will consider myself very fortunate to of had that stepping stone...like that wise king that once said to his son...it is better to marry a fair maiden from a long line of great warriors, kings, and beautiful and intelligent women than to marry a beautiful maiden from questionable stock...

a short story below...

one very hot summer day the cur dogs went right over a hog track they could not smell...a 4 month puppy took the track and was working it backwards for about 100 yards before he lost it and I got very excited about it...the guy I was hunting with says...man why are you so upbeat about it when he was working the track backwards...some folks just don't get it...about 2 or 3 weeks  before when I first took this pup out  I set him down when I turned the dogs out and my brother and I took off walking and we walked about 100 yards or so and I looked for the pup and he wasn't with us...I told my brother to wait that I needed to go to the truck because I needed to get the pup and for a moment I was disappointed...about that time I heard some crashing water and I shined my light and that pup done made a round and was busting through that slew like he had done it all his life looking from side to side...needless to say I was on cloud 9...at that age on a track he sounded like a bawl mouthed hound...he was born a star...I thank the almighty for giving me the wisdom to know it and appreciate it...after thinking on it I realized he was special...I have had quite a few good to great dogs since him but never one which could reason like him...in my mind the difference between a once in a lifetime dog and a great dog is brain power...a good dog might take a while to find that one hog and sometimes not...a great dog can find one fairly quick...but a once in a lifetime dog will make it look easy...and over a period of time will learn after quick checks to know if there is a hog there or not...they say a dog can not reason...but that dog makes me question that...

having said that about that dog I instinctively knew he was not going to be the reproducer because of his back ground...I bred him once and then used one of his sons to reproduce quite a few excellent dogs for me...I bred his son only to his dams side of the family which were mt curs...and if I only liked totally silent dogs I would have culled 9 out of ten pups...

in those years I spent months trying to decide which female gets kept and bred...the pups and dogs were tested for speed and stamina at the beach...tested for taking to water naturally and how well they swam...I like a dog that all you see is the head out of the water and moving forward kind of like a gator would and only making a smooth wake...and these dogs are usually built a certain way and when swimming after a hog these dogs are powerful swimmers that you can see them porpoising like 2/3rds of their bodies coming up out of the water...also tested for wind and finding, breaking to gun and the smell of gun powder...testing for those that took to the woods to make a round etc...etc...always breeding the best to the best within a family...what is the use of trying to breed better dogs if we don't do everything within our power to identify and keep the right pups that fit in the hunting and breeding program...

I don't have the places to do what I used to do...even the remote beach I used is now public...and testing in the canals behind my house are now off limits...

with the knowledge we have access today...most anyone who has that burning desire can produce a high percentage of good dogs...you just need to take off your rose colored glasses and we must be able to see the truth...there are reasons why dogs do what they do...just be logical about it and don't make excuses for the dog...the words "reasons" and "excuses" do not mean the same thing...

[YELLOWBLACKMASK]

Best to Best and Cull the rest.

Find something that performs to your expectations........and breed them to something even better. 

From conception to grave, always ask more of your dog and never be satisfied until it delivers.

Decide early....Tool or Pet, then utilize accordingly. (Doesn't mean cruelty). Working dogs deserve the time and care if they put theirs in.

Sharp shovels. Don't lie to yourself due to looks or attachments. If it doesn't work.......IT DOESN'T WORK!  Scrub and hit the drawing board again. 

Several generations of strict trial and error and you should have something to be proud of. 

I agree with VERY LITTLE of this post.   The part about being honest with yourself might be the only part.

I have never found any logic in spending more time, energy or money into a substandard product that never worked to begin with. But if you truly can be honest with yourself about what's in front of you.....then you either have a product that is sufficient and can be built on.....or you have reached satisfaction in going in circles.

Regardless it boils down to what satisfies you.

[justincorbell]

Mike n underdog got a great breeding program hopefully they'll chime in!?

Mike breeds them.....i just use them. 

After raisin more than a few litters myself I think ol mike is gettin the raw end of that deal! 

[justincorbell]

Alotta good info in this thread, thanks for every ones input/opinions/thoughts on the subject, these are the threads I stick around here for.

[parker49]

if you want to breed better  dogs  out of  what you have watch your puppies ...the ones  that shows a natural instinct for hunting or just naturally likes a pig ....they will breed  more  of there own kind ..... most people say  cull hard  cull hard .... out of a litter  you just may  cull the best dog for  any kind  of  reason probably the owners fault includeing myself ...I've  culled  lots  of  dogs that was  probably  better  than the ones  I kept  .......  I've  been doing  this  for a  long time  and  I am no expert but if you can get your breeding down to where they all start looking the  same litter  after  litter you'll find they also will have  a lot of  common desires ....... its  not complicated  .....  mine  perty much all look the same  now so now  I the one I like the best that was  just a natural from start to finish  and  I breed to try and clone him ...easier to do with males I belive  because I can breed  one  male  to  3  gyps  and then cross back the offspring  then back to him again......  but to start off look at the natural instincts the pups  have  you can't teach that and  they will breed more  of there own kind ....

[oconee]

if you want to breed better  dogs  out of  what you have watch your puppies ...the ones  that shows a natural instinct for hunting or just naturally likes a pig ....they will breed  more  of there own kind ..... most people say  cull hard  cull hard .... out of a litter  you just may  cull the best dog for  any kind  of  reason probably the owners fault includeing myself ...I've  culled  lots  of  dogs that was  probably  better  than the ones  I kept  .......  I've  been doing  this  for a  long time  and  I am no expert but if you can get your breeding down to where they all start looking the  same litter  after  litter you'll find they also will have  a lot of  common desires ....... its  not complicated  .....  mine  perty much all look the same  now so now  I the one I like the best that was  just a natural from start to finish  and  I breed to try and clone him ...easier to do with males I belive  because I can breed  one  male  to  3  gyps  and then cross back the offspring  then back to him again......  but to start off look at the natural instincts the pups  have  you can't teach that and  they will breed more  of there own kind ....

Very good post.  You are the first person I heard makeep so many comments about "natural instinct."   That is what it's all about.  I've read countless comments on these sites about "training dogs."   Often it's folks wanting to boost about their training skills and tell how they can "train this and train that" but all the while they are missing the whole concept.  I'll be the first to tell you, I can'tell train what I need out of a dog.  I have pounced this into my families head and a few weeks ago we were at a dog trial in Tennessee and I over heard my wife asked how we trained our dogs.  Ha ha ha.     I grinned because I knew exactly what she was going to say.  "You just open that brass snap, the rest is up to them."   I heard a hounds men that have the upmost respect for put it like this.  "The training in over when the male knots the female!"

[Reuben]

Oconee...we are in agreement...breeding for natural is always the best bet...that has been my reasoning and way of selecting for many years...testing is not so much for training as it is to see which puppy has that natural inclination...natural instinct to bay, trail, range, wind, stop a hog...

However...the better handlers can take those same dogs and get the best out of them...a good dog should be able to wind, be free casted or roaded...he should be able to do all of the above mentioned...

when a breeder has established his kennel with good dogs and he takes a pup to the woods and at six months he goes in that big briar patch after some hogs and he gets run over by a hog and he comes out and wants to give it up for 4-6 months before he starts back up I will cull...it does not matter if he will turn it back on...I see that as a big negative...because he has the potential to reproduce more of the same...

now if that same pup had gone in and then got whipped a little by the hog deep in the briars and that pup went back to baying after a little while I would be very impressed...and even more if he went to hollering and then immediately turned on that raging bawl right in the pigs face...

don't get me wrong...I will not intentionally set a pup up for failure...I like making every move as right as possible so the pups can progress to becoming hog dogs...but I look at every scenario to see whats natural in a pup...

[oconee]

I can get the best out of a dog if he has it, I can assure you of that!   As far as taking a 6 mth old to the woods, I will not take a pup until I feel he is ready to contribute and make an impact on things.   I have heard these stories of world beaters putting it on older dogs at freakish early ages but I just can't help but wonder...........        When 6-8 mth old pups start showing out I will strongly evaluate my pack, I don't care how special a pup is.

[Judge peel]

Oconee I am with you on that. If a 6 month old pup shows up grown dogs on multiple hunts time to clean house


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[Nannyslayer]

I've always held with what my dad thought me. Breed the best hunters to the best hunters and if your lucky you'll get 1 good one out of the litter. We raised a litter of half cat half hounds here recently. This past winter was their first winter. Out of a litter of 9, 3 remain today. 2 are doing exceptional and the 3rd is just doing good. But they are all young and I'm patient and will give them a little more time before I make the final cut.

But regardless of breed, I've lived by what my dad has thought me and it seems to be working out pretty well.

[TheRednose]

All of you gentleman make great points about natural instinct and or ability. I have a friend who lives up in the midwest close to the canadian border and has been hunting bears since the 60's hard, and I mean hunting and guiding full time no other job during season. We were talking about this and he said you can't make a dog something he's not, its ALL in the breeding and either he has it in him or doesn't. He said with a real hunting dog, you don't train it to hunt you only train it what not to hunt lol.