Breeding Better Dogs 101...

[Scott]

Now, how many breedings and how long do you believe it would take to develop a consistent  line that produces consistency if starting from scatterbred dogs? When does a line become "your" line? Some folks believe it's their line when they buy two dogs and breed them...others believe it takes more than a generation or two...

[parker49]

you can increase  your  odds  by line breeding and culling out the oddballs from breeding stock no matter  how  good  they are  ....... my dogs are black brindle  dogs  I have  select bred  the rest out ....that's where my consistantcy has  come from  .... those  oddballs  you get is throw backs and can change or I say will change  your  breeding to some degree ..... I haven't had  one in a long time... people ask me  some times  larry  you want to breed to this certain dog and get back some of your old blood ...I say  no  no  no .....I get more  consistant all the time and I like it .....now far as dogs like my joe dog was  well they come  here  and there but any dog I get half  as  good as  he was  is still  a  good dog and thats success ... the thing about opinions is they gonna  be based  on personal experience  so nobodies wrong here true opinions based on what  you no is not wrong just maybe  not exactly wright  just like my opinions are.....  

[parker49]

I'd say about 6 generations to get consistant ..... 

[oconee]

I think it all depends on how tightly the stock you started with was bred.  If a guy picks a couple families of dogs that have been bred pretty tight and takes off he could accomplish the consistency in a matter of 2-3 generations, assuming he choose two families that already closely fit his needs.  Now if most dogs in the ancestry of the families of dogs choose were scattered completely and no resemblances could be found for generations them it could take a while to start seeing consistentency.  Just my thoughts, I'm by no means a pro breeder buy i've  had the pleasure of listening to and being around some of the best tho.

[Mike]

Larry, did you notice your dogs getting smaller the tighter you bred them? My last litter all came out quite a bit smaller after 4 generations.

[TheRednose]

Larry, did you notice your dogs getting smaller the tighter you bred them? My last litter all came out quite a bit smaller after 4 generations.

I'm not Larry but I will tell you that is a very common effect of what they call inbreeding depression. A lot of times when genes get real tight loss of size is a lot of times what is first noticed. We used to see it all the time with bulldogs. It just happened with my friends litter of Mayday pups he had about 14 months ago. The dam was a little over 50lb the father walks around 60lb and so far it looks like none of the pups male or female will get even close to 50lb so far the females looks they are going to range between 35-40, and males 40-47lb maybe. Both dogs were very closely bred, and both bred pretty tight from the same family.

Whats weird in my opinion is how some families hold up to inbreeding really well and you can breed them super tight without many problems and other families as soon as you start, you notice defects and problems. I always thought that was based on how big of a gene pool you started with but there seems to be other factors too.

[oconee]

I think i'll have to disagree with the dogs getting smaller with tight breeding theory.  In my experience the "game dog" breeders and "plott bear dog" breederst are the tightest of all breeders and I have been around many breeders of both and have yet to see it.  I fact probably the tightest plott bear dog breeder I know has huge dogs.    I suppose sometimes a litter may come out a little smaller on occasion depending on certain parents from the particular family but as a whole I can't believe inbreeding will shrink the line, no matter how tight.   Another thing I strongly disagree with is "outcrossing!"   Outcrossing is only needed to bring in needed traits from another specimen from another tight family that exhibits the needed trait stongly.  IMO.    When a tightly bred cross fails it's not a sign that you need an outcross, it's a sign to not cross them two family members again.  If you have v what you need in you dogs then keep it and do not add anything else.  All crosses don't work and by jumping thru your butt and outcrossing because one cross didn't meet your expectations you could possibly bring in all sorts of unknown traits to deal with for generations to come for no reason.   Sorry just some more rambling from stuff i've learned from breeders I REALLY respect. 

[TheRednose]

I think i'll have to disagree with the dogs getting smaller with tight breeding theory.  In my experience the "game dog" breeders and "plott bear dog" breederst are the tightest of all breeders and I have been around many breeders of both and have yet to see it.  I fact probably the tightest plott bear dog breeder I know has huge dogs.    I suppose sometimes a litter may come out a little smaller on occasion depending on certain parents from the particular family but as a whole I can't believe inbreeding will shrink the line, no matter how tight.   Another thing I strongly disagree with is "outcrossing!"   Outcrossing is only needed to bring in needed traits from another specimen from another tight family that exhibits the needed trait stongly.  IMO.    When a tightly bred cross fails it's not a sign that you need an outcross, it's a sign to not cross them two family members again.  If you have v what you need in you dogs then keep it and do not add anything else.  All crosses don't work and by jumping thru your butt and outcrossing because one cross didn't meet your expectations you could possibly bring in all sorts of unknown traits to deal with for generations to come for no reason.   Sorry just some more rambling from stuff i've learned from breeders I REALLY respect. 

[Scott]

Just like TheRednose....I've seen it myself

[TheRednose]

I think i'll have to disagree with the dogs getting smaller with tight breeding theory.  In my experience the "game dog" breeders and "plott bear dog" breederst are the tightest of all breeders and I have been around many breeders of both and have yet to see it.  I fact probably the tightest plott bear dog breeder I know has huge dogs.    I suppose sometimes a litter may come out a little smaller on occasion depending on certain parents from the particular family but as a whole I can't believe inbreeding will shrink the line, no matter how tight.   Another thing I strongly disagree with is "outcrossing!"   Outcrossing is only needed to bring in needed traits from another specimen from another tight family that exhibits the needed trait stongly.  IMO.    When a tightly bred cross fails it's not a sign that you need an outcross, it's a sign to not cross them two family members again.  If you have v what you need in you dogs then keep it and do not add anything else.  All crosses don't work and by jumping thru your butt and outcrossing because one cross didn't meet your expectations you could possibly bring in all sorts of unknown traits to deal with for generations to come for no reason.   Sorry just some more rambling from stuff i've learned from breeders I REALLY respect. 

[TheRednose]

[oconee]

I have NOT seen it.

[Sourlaken357]

I've learned a lot so far but I have a question. I got two male curs that were inbred but out of a very good family of dogs. Only two of litter that turned out. If I bred one of my males to a good stock gyp would I breed the inbred out? Or will the bad inbreeding traits go to the pups?


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[parker49]

mike it depends  on what I breed  I just have  so many options  to breed to keep the body style I like ...hope these  pics  work here is my sue dog and  his  daughter ....sue  is 4  generations to 5 bottom and all line  bred  back to 2  females and  one  male over 20 years  ago .....http://parkercurdogsforum.proboards.com/attachment/download/319

[parker49]

[parker49]

[TheRednose]

Those sure are some nice looking dogs Mr. Parker

[Mike]

Thanks fellas... I was just curious. Most all the dogs related to mine were in the 60-70 lb range, a few oddballs that were over 70. The litter I'm referring to are mostly 50-60 lb dogs... which is about right for my liking. I'll be curious to see how this new litter turns out.

Good lookin dogs Larry.

[Shotgun66]

THANK YOU to all the experienced dog men on this thread for sharing your experience, your knowledge, and your opinions. It's nice to see guys who have achieved your level of success be willing to share your insight @ no $!
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There are a few of us middle age fellas who are @ a point in our lives where we have the resources/time and are willing to listen, learn, and apply the knowledge you have to share.
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Hopefully we can take what you have to teach us and apply it in a manner that will allow us to push more quality workin dogs into the woods.

[Semmes]

Second that ^ shotgun