Breeding Better Dogs 101...

[parker49]

nobody said the week pups  wouldn't  make  good dogs  I just said I wouldn't breed with them ....and I  just don't save week pups ...maybe that's why I don't  need to outcross ya'll ever thought of that ......I'm no scientist ...I just know  what I have seen and my opinion is mine .....but  one  thing I do not do is pretend to know  what I don't .....

[Cajun]

  I just had a litter where one male & 3 females were twice as big as their siblings (five- 3 males & 2 females). Talked to my Vet about it & she said no doubt the bigger pups were from the first breeding & the smaller pups were from the 2nd or 3rd breeding. I always breed a gyp every other day while she is in heat trying to catch the entire heat cycle. Now I wonder if that is a good thing. All the pups are healthy looking, just never had that many smaller ones.

[Reuben]

nobody said the week pups  wouldn't  make  good dogs  I just said I wouldn't breed with them ....and I  just don't save week pups ...maybe that's why I don't  need to outcross ya'll ever thought of that ......I'm no scientist ...I just know  what I have seen and my opinion is mine .....but  one  thing I do not do is pretend to know  what I don't .....

I agree with Parker...we have to cull hard to have the best...in my original program/project I did just that and my culls were probably better than the average hog dog...when I say cull I mean it has no place at my home but will probably make an excellent dog for someone else...If I had three males that were close in all areas of hunt I would then go farther back and if one was an early starter I would breed that dog...I think everyone breeding dogs should demand the very best and nothing less...

if you have to do extra to keep pups alive that is ok...but this should count against the pup as a breeder...

having to feed lots of tracks to make a dog then you can expect the same if done often enough when breeding future generations...

breeding to the highest standard is the only way to produce that type of dog...and it starts before the pups are even born...

I even throw in an old sweaty T-Shirt in the whelping box by time the pups are 10 days old so they can smell me 24/7...

some folks say you can get a high percentage of hunting dogs out of a litter...but you can...by selecting the very best from a litter and keeping them related...if the need to outcross is there do it with a linebred dog that brings in little outside blood if possible...breed in an outside bred dog too often and the line of dogs is not yours...

linebreeding and inbreeding don't mean jack if your standards are set low...

[Judge peel]

I get what y'all are saying but what gets me is that you put so much time and effort in to breeding the right dogs. And then just let the pups die off at will and cull if they don't start fast enough. Now culling a dog at a yr to 18 months is one thing it didn't work out that's fine but a few week old pup makes no sense to me  I guess different strokes for different folks


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[TexasHogDogs]

I've seen the chittest pup in a liter and also the worst acting year old dog that would not hit a lick.  A dog that never done a dang thing till 22 months old when the light bulb finally went off  Then turn into one of the greatest dogs of his time and one of the greatest of all time.

It all means NOTHING when they are a pup!

[TexasHogDogs]

Instead of pups & dogs having to adapt all the time to my are your private high expectations and carry the load of yours are my ego, maybe it should be the owners, breeders and handlers that need to adapt to the pups and dogs.  Maybe we should be a little patience.  One needs to also learn looks are only skin deep and don't mean Jack.  Just some good for thought.

[TheRednose]

Hey Jimmy can you share some of your thoughts on line breeding, inbreeding, and outcrossing. I don't know much about breeding hounds or hog dogs, but I have had the pleasure to speak with some well known bulldog men about it. One of them told me during a long phone convo that if you know how to linebreed you can go longer, but sooner or later you always eventually will have to outcross. He explained that since this is the case that your family is only as good as the outcrosses you have made. Because they are basically what allows your family of dogs to carry on. That made sense to me but I would like to hear your thoughts on it. Especially since you have bred top notch bulldogs and hog dogs both.

[parker49]

I believe  ya'll are getting the wrong picture ...I simply don't baby them .. I worm  and  parvo and everything else ....and  if I have  one looks a little  punny i'll worm it best I can ....

[parker49]

well looks  does  mean something in breeding a  line ..... it shows consistency  .......

[TexasHogDogs]

I have not read this whole post but I see some talking about mother nature.  Mother Nature to me is one of the most important breeding tools a man can have.  When breeding a line of dogs she is the one that should tell a man when its time to cross his heavily bred line of dogs.  Inbreeding and heavy line breed a line of dogs will only work for so long.  Size comes into play, the futher you go stamina, wind, lungs, then a dog will not heal as fast are well as a crossed type vigor dog and the futher you go after some of this defects starts now I are breeding yourself into a coner and into a comer of hell.  You have to know when to stop cross to put health virgor back into your captured traits from your heavly bred line.  Another thing once a dog gets so inbred there is nothing else for the line to give, it only goes so far period. Each line is different and can take so much.  Proven facts ask any gentic expert are better yet somebody that has done it.  I have seen many many lines of years and years of line and inbreeding families.  Lol. The dumbest thing.  One man has his dogs bred for 60 years without a cross he says all his dogs look like they came out of marine boot camp just specimans of dog dom.  Another man been doing the same thing he says for 60 years his dogs are smaller n size, some major undershot , some dont have much vigor and health to them.  He says the great performance isn't there anymore.  Funny thing aint it?  One man's specimans of dogs inbred line bred for 60 years another man same thing and 3/4 his yard looks like they ready for the nursing home. Hummmmm who you gonna belive? The man with the specimans are the man that needs health ins for dogs.  I have seen this many times with my own eyes.  Not only that but I done it with the bulldogs a line can only take so much before you go to hurting ur line of dogs.  Then it's either cross for real and show it are cross and don't show it.

Thats the truth now.

[The Old Man]

Selection plays a huge part in the success of any breeding program, if you started with real clean stock you could get farther without needing an outcross. As far as size goes selection and foundation stock both play a major role, if there were a majority of smaller dogs in the foundation stock line breeding would lead to smaller dogs, the opposite would be true if you only selected the larger dogs, or if the majority of the foundation stock were larger etc and so on.
If you selected only based on performance then the size would lean toward whatever was the best performing stock in that particular line.
 The guys that claim to have a "line" of dogs that have several outcrosses in 3 gens or so really only have hybrids that are not a "line" of dogs. Crossbred dogs are just that and should not be considered a "line" of dogs until bred several gens without an outcross even if they are crossbred or hybrid to begin with.
I have saw line bred dogs get smaller and stay large according to foundation and selection. Just because you breed'em your way at your house doesn't make them a true "line" of dogs.

[TexasHogDogs]

Red nose....A Wiseman u spoke to.....The outcross is what is either going to bring out the best in your heavy line bred inbred line of dogs are it is going to bring put the worst.  I have said for years and years the outcross is what brings the hammer down.  You got the right cross with your line of family culled dogs and the sky is the limit.  The almighty key is finding another culled family of dogs bred in similar ways but not the same  line of dogs up front.  In other words really no close kin are none at all.  If it clicks look out.  Once youve done this and it works great now you can go back to your family line and line and inbred till Mother Nature tells u it's time again.

A man does not even have to go completely out with his dogs.  He can do what is called a back cross.  A back cross is a cross of light kin dogs.  In other words all dogs up front look like they are unkin until you get back to about the fourth fifth six hen then your road map comes together and you start to see that the top side and the bottom side really all come from the same family type foundation type dogs just threw very different channels of dogs.  Some may have a hint of a cross here and there threw the years but basaclly all going back together to the old foundation dog like let's say Dibo are Cottons Bullet.  A lot of times in these kinds of breeding you will get a throwback to one are two of the old old dogs of the great years.

Yes the outcross is the FUEL to your motor which is your line, inbred family of cull dogs.

Yo The more potent the fuel the better that big block family motor gonna run.

Got me!

[TexasHogDogs]

I agree Old man.....I guess I should have said it better.  What I meant was I have seen great great dogs in their like of work come in all shapes and forms.    I've seen pups that look like crap turn into specimans of dogs as they aged.

I agree with a u said there on crossed, hybred , inbred and so on.

[Reuben]

I will never know if a 2 year old dog will turn on...at least not in my yard...if I raised giant bred dogs then maybe I would be more forgiving...

breeding an outcross to your line like Jimmy said the dog should be from another line of well bred dogs...but if the litter is not consistent in looks and how they act get rid of all the pups and gp elsewhere...when it works then use one of the pups that has proven himself...breed him once into the line and no more...you can then breed one of the offspring from that cross as much as needed...

once the line is established slow the breedings way down otherwise you will be baqck in that corner again...

but to have the best one must cull accordingly...when I say cull it means it don't stay in my yard...but that pup could be great in someone elses yard...when we are breeding dogs it is our responsibility to breed the very best at all times...

at the beginning finding the right dogs can be difficult...once you have found then then it becomes fairly easy if you know a good dog and have a good knowledge of breeding...

[oconee]

The truth is "Breeding" dogs gets blown way out of proportion often times.   I don't understand what's so complicated about trying to duplicate a certain dog by using multiple offspring of his to do it.    I mean hell, if you find a dog you like then the more times you add him to you line the more likely you are to reproduce him on occasion somewhere down the road.   I know that's an overly simply way of looking at it but it really can't be perfected in the first place.  JMO.     As far as everyone's standards on confirmation, hunting traits, natural ability to ward off disease, starting age, and all other things judged toward the breeding program, that's all up to each individual.   Just put as much of the genes you want together, cull the ones that don't suit you and breed the ones that do back to one another.  Just remember everything you introduce newer blood you're introducing a HELLVA LOT more than you think and you'lol have to deal with everything introduced moving forward.   Lots of guys outcross to say a dog with a great nose to maybe add some nose to their line but the dog will bring a lot more with him than just his sniffer, good and bad, so it all depends on how bad your line needs something whether it's worth the risk of adding bad genes along with the good your after.  When and if I ever get mine like I like them you can bet your butt i'my not taking a step backwards.   It takes SEVERAL dogs to keep what you worked for alive on your own yard but it all comes down to how bado a man wants his program to succeed and stay successful.  Just more rambling, take care.

[Black Streak]

It looks to me that the general senses is that the out cross is bad and inferior to the line of dogs most are breeding.    Lots of ego driving this I think.    Those that have been line breeding good dogs for a while shouldn't have problems getting a hold of a good outcross.  People breeding good dogs have circles and connections.  Every  good hunting dog breeder I know of can  borrow an awsome male to breed to his best female that's in no way inferior to his female or family line of dogs.   The dog he or she borrows to breed to the family line could be better.   
     I really appreciated what Texas Hog Dogs had to say and it really  in line with my beliefs and perspectives

[Black Streak]

I read all the time on here where people will say that often times the pup that starts out blowing the others away often times peaks out and the other pups later to turn on surpass the early starting pup.  I read as much about the latest starting pup being the all star of the litter.    Yet as much as I hear about the two things I still read where most will not even consider breeding to the late starting dog that turns out to be the better of the litter.  I do see on occasion a person or two saying what a pup does is irrelevant while it's a pup.   This is where I stand on the issue.     I'd much rather look at and make my judgments and decision making off what transpires and plays out over the long term than placing much emphasis on the short term pup stage. 
 

[parker49]

real good  dogs  you own or  may have  owned  or  somebody  you know  has  owned  is not the same thing as breeding a  line  of  dogs ..dogs have a tremendous gene pool within each type .... 95  percent  of the people with  dogs  do not  have the resources to effectively  line  breed ......   you  can line  breed  or  selective  line breed  where  you narrow  down certain traits  ...... when you start getting it narrowed down they will start looking alike ....... I  have  my line narrowed down ...now I try to clone the  best that are just born hogdogs that have a natural liking for hunting hogs ...... I guarantee  you 95  percent breeding dogs  have  not  narrowed  it down .....if  so they would not be looking to outcross .... 

[Black Streak]

Birds of a feather flock together.   When a person has established and bred a line of good hunting dogs he isn't just the run of the mill backyard breeder.   He has a network of people involved with the program.   If not then he is gonna have a ton of dogs on his yard and so many dogs that there would just be no feasible way to hunt them enough to find the best to breed to.  You would just essential tally be breeding on looks.     
   Guys that are truely line breeding good hunting dogs aren't  going at it alone.   Just the hobbiest isn't who I am referring to but I think that's who you are referring to Mr. Parker.  The guys truely line breeding hunting dogs have connections to other guys doing the same thing around the country or the world.   The guys that are doing this have no problem getting access to a good outcross to another line of dogs comparable to his own.   At this level of breeding, a dog half way around the world or in a different country or other side of this country is still a viable option as an outcross.  Good breeders of good hunting lines of dogs realize that you don't get out of your dogs what you don't put into them.     If you are of the mindset that a dog is to far away to breed to, then your road will be a lot longer without the dog, time, effort, money etc will be increased also.      If you don't have connections like this when you are a line breeder I'm sure your line will surely show it in one way or another.        I venture to say, what ever your level of breeding, there are dogs out there you can cross to that are comparable to yours.  If you are a breeder of hunting dogs and don't have connections like this or are unaware that birds of a feather flock together then maybe it's an ego problem that keeps you out of the flock or from making good connections.     
    I'm not saying anyone needs to outcross but if a breeder did want to, it's pretty egotistical to think there is not a suitable line of dogs to do so with that would result in setting your own line back.   If your a halfxxx breeder then your connections probably are about the same.   Goes back to what I said about the birds of a feather.  If your an advanced line breeding super guy, you probably have same like minded connections.
   Of your are just a back yard breeder, then why even speak of line breeding?       

[TexasHogDogs]

I agree with u on that Mr.Parker.  I bred some of the purest Gr Ch Nigerino dogs in the world not country but world.  Red dogs with black mask.  We had six liters on the ground at one time and had to keep each liter in separate quaters.  The reason being if a liter ever got out and got with another liter there was no way to be able to tell them apart.  They where that close. Bred in all different ways threw Nigerino and they where all clones .  Yes sir that's when you know you got things right that and their performace matches their pedigree and does what their pedigree says they should do not the other way around because a great beautful pedigree is pure a$$ wipe trash if the dog cannot perform to the level in which he is bred.