November 29, 2024, 08:36:41 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: WILD BOAR USA....FOR ALL YOUR HOG HUNTING NEEDS
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10 ... 16   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Breeding Better Dogs 101...  (Read 31691 times)
Semmes
Alpha Dog
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 514


View Profile
« Reply #140 on: April 13, 2016, 10:22:54 pm »

As far as Larry's dogs go, I've hunted with, been around, and have good friends or past acquaintances  that hunted with other Parker's I have not seen. I have personally seen and hunted and know folks that have seen and hunted with outstanding Parker dogs. I have also seen personally some pure I didn't like so much. Bout like anything I guess....hard ta bat 100% no matter what some may say
 
I have also seen some excellent Parker crosses out of other line bred families and even scattered dogs.

That there even further exemplifies to me the value of a tight bred line of dogs than the original stock if that makes sense...
Logged
liefalwepon
Alpha Dog
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 888



View Profile
« Reply #141 on: April 13, 2016, 10:35:04 pm »

i have a 300 acre wooded pasture to try dogs  in ... i used to keep bout 40 dogs all the time .....i have access to thousands  of acres  to hunt  ....  so i have the resources  to develop a line  of  dogs ..... the best dogs  you ever own may come  from the side  of the  road and  look like a  pure  mutt .....but a  real good line  of dogs  sure  makes  life  easy ....I'm gonna  let ya'll have it  I've  done  said  enuf .... thanks  i love  talking dogs .....

Mr. Parker the proof is in the pudding and you sure have produced a lot of really good dogs, and one of the best lines around so nuff said. I really appreciate all of the good info you have added to this thread. Thank you sir!
I second that. Happy to have you here!

X3
Logged

WHACK EM N STACK EM!!!
Reuben
Internet Hog Hunting Specialist
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9481


View Profile
« Reply #142 on: April 14, 2016, 06:20:07 am »

I don't understand how next step 'is prob biggest step in breeding' when as of now you got a crossed up jumble...seems like doubling down or tightening up would be biggest next step to me....

I think we have all culled plenty a dog and pup and spent a pretty penny doing so...

Comes a time if your gonna breed dogs seems like ya gotta try n make some chicken salad if ya catch my drift

because it will be the first step in linebreeding/inbreeding...the female I choose will hopefully produce a good female pup that will be bred back to the sire if he keeps progressing as he has...these are long term goals...
Logged

Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
justincorbell
Internet Hog Hunting Specialist
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6361



View Profile
« Reply #143 on: April 14, 2016, 07:55:58 am »

Sure are  some sensitive folks in this thread  Grin
Logged

"stupids in the water these days, they're gonna drink it anyway." - Chris Knight
Judge peel
Hog Doom
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4935



View Profile
« Reply #144 on: April 14, 2016, 12:41:22 pm »

Not being ugly but what do you gain from pit x redbone = cross a  then mnt cur x plott = cross b then the two together make cross c then you plan to breed back to the sire. Not sure if I got your method exactly right. ? For you I know pit was for grit red bone size and nose mnt cur probly for hunt and durability plott to ad back nose size and bottom   Wouldn't it be faster to go to one pure breed that has all of those and tweeking a bit to your like or do you just like long projects. Like I said not being ugly just trying to understand your methods of thinking


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Logged
oconee
Strike Dog
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 462


View Profile
« Reply #145 on: April 14, 2016, 03:01:15 pm »

Peel if you haven't figured it out by now I'll just tell you.  You see Reuben here thinks this breeding deal is just like mixing paint.  You know yellow X blue = green.  Simple as that.
Logged
Judge peel
Hog Doom
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4935



View Profile
« Reply #146 on: April 14, 2016, 03:19:25 pm »

Lmbo


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Logged
TheRednose
Boar Slayer
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1318



View Profile
« Reply #147 on: April 14, 2016, 03:22:16 pm »

Not being ugly but what do you gain from pit x redbone = cross a  then mnt cur x plott = cross b then the two together make cross c then you plan to breed back to the sire. Not sure if I got your method exactly right. ? For you I know pit was for grit red bone size and nose mnt cur probly for hunt and durability plott to ad back nose size and bottom   Wouldn't it be faster to go to one pure breed that has all of those and tweeking a bit to your like or do you just like long projects. Like I said not being ugly just trying to understand your methods of thinking


You make a good point with your statement about getting purebred dogs that were already close to where you want. Now I don't know or pretend to know exactly what Reuben is looking for, and this is not directed at him but more as a general example but if you don't mind an open dog it seems to me like going out and getting some real rough plotts would be your faster path. I mean there are some real good rough plott lines out there already with most of the work already done for you. You got some really good old school Weems blood a lot of that tends to be rough depending on who you get it from, then you got Mike and Cajun Plotts who are definitely on the rough side and I have never heard anything but good things about his dogs and they have hunted world wide on all kind of game. Those are just some examples but I would go find a couple of sources where you have seen their dogs hunt and get you a few from each. Then you can selectively breed from there.

Just thinking out loud.
Logged
Judge peel
Hog Doom
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4935



View Profile
« Reply #148 on: April 14, 2016, 03:34:41 pm »

Most of the time guys add pit to the dogs are becuz they lack heart drive and grit any one that knows dogs can say that's what a pit gives you. If you add hound says you might be looking to add nose and bottom. Breeding these two types of dogs together are counter predictive to me you will have to have tons of litters from the exact pair to even start to comprehend what your making and probly cull 90 %. This work has already be done that's why there are so many breeds and lines in those breeds. But good luck on your adventures


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Logged
Reuben
Internet Hog Hunting Specialist
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9481


View Profile
« Reply #149 on: April 14, 2016, 05:51:41 pm »

Not being ugly but what do you gain from pit x redbone = cross a  then mnt cur x plott = cross b then the two together make cross c then you plan to breed back to the sire. Not sure if I got your method exactly right. ? For you I know pit was for grit red bone size and nose mnt cur probly for hunt and durability plott to ad back nose size and bottom   Wouldn't it be faster to go to one pure breed that has all of those and tweeking a bit to your like or do you just like long projects. Like I said not being ugly just trying to understand your methods of thinking


You make a good point with your statement about getting purebred dogs that were already close to where you want. Now I don't know or pretend to know exactly what Reuben is looking for, and this is not directed at him but more as a general example but if you don't mind an open dog it seems to me like going out and getting some real rough plotts would be your faster path. I mean there are some real good rough plott lines out there already with most of the work already done for you. You got some really good old school Weems blood a lot of that tends to be rough depending on who you get it from, then you got Mike and Cajun Plotts who are definitely on the rough side and I have never heard anything but good things about his dogs and they have hunted world wide on all kind of game. Those are just some examples but I would go find a couple of sources where you have seen their dogs hunt and get you a few from each. Then you can selectively breed from there.

Just thinking out loud.

yes these are good points...I did try to get a cajun plott gyp or older female but none were available...Mike did offer to breed to one of my females but I did not have anything worthwhile...besides,I did not want full blooded plotts just wanted to breed to what I already have...

Like I already said earlier...I love the old style hard hunting, winding, trailing, cutting and slashing and finding game quick style of mt cur...but nowadays those are hard to find...so mixing plott with what I have will get me closer to what I want...

when it comes to breeding dogs I have spent many an hour and day deciding what to do and even months...so how to go about doing it is fairly simple to me...I make some sound comments and no one comments on them...but say something a little off and I get comments...makes me wonder if that is why we have so many culls out there...

actually, I was trying to locate some good dogs of what I liked and culled quite a few...even culled a top pedigreed pup out of some trail blazers...and as I was keeping some better dogs I wound up with these and I am happy with them...not the best but good enough...the plott gyp brought a lot to the table...so did the Kemmer gyp...so because I found myself here it is easy enough to go forward provided I get a female I want...

With the right female I should get quite a few good pups but all I will need is 2 or so from that litter by time I do the culling...culling does not mean the pup or pups won't work out...it just means not in my yard...

I like the idea of tweaking, changing and creating...and once there stay on track for the duration...
Logged

Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
Judge peel
Hog Doom
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4935



View Profile
« Reply #150 on: April 14, 2016, 07:14:54 pm »

You just described a fl cur lol. I get what your saying just seems like the long way around 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Logged
Semmes
Alpha Dog
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 514


View Profile
« Reply #151 on: April 14, 2016, 08:05:53 pm »

So this is breeding 'BETTER' dogs 101...

Lets get it all lined out from the person that started the thread...

You started with a...
Quote
the first cross is a leggy pitbull and redbone cross that I only heard was a good redbone and the pit was tall and leggy and good RCD...

Not just two dif lines but totally dif breeds a bulldog and a hound. The hound you never saw hunt or hunted with any of its family/line...only heard.

Then you bred to a...
Quote
...the tight bred mt cur was tight kemmer out of some good dogs out of Louisiana.
A then again totally dif breed from a hound or a bulldog and that was bred tight. So I'm sure those traits probably f-1 overrode the other scattered bred dog since it had genetic propensity locked in thru line breeding. But it's traits were also washed out a bit from outcrossing it to a scattered dog from to totally dif breeds with no commonality leaving that offspring not very useful at locking down any consistant traits esp since that wasnt then tightened on and culled to even see results as far as breeding wise.

Then you bred to a...
Quote
one of those pups I bred to a pure bred plott out of Wisconsin bred mainly for bear and hog...according to the owner she is a solid hog dog that relayed off from caught hogs...she is out of two of the best plotts the owner had so the pups I have are out of those crosses...
Back, now, with a scattered dog bred to a, I assume tighter family of yer another hound of a totally dif breed. No wonder the pups all look like plotts(going on recollection here).
Of course the propensity once again overrode the now even more scattered and watered down nature of the dog you bred it to. But still yet again washed any breeding wealth plott had to offer beyond a splash of vigor of basically a bow F-1 cross to a plott. ....again at that point the only Wat to know would breed one back to either of its parents or back crossed to a relative of either the redbone, the pit or the kemmer you used then bred that together to check any  real  progress.

....and most recently in this thread you talk of using a Parker now. Another tight line of yer a dif breed as your final pc of the puzzle. Before you start to tighten...?

I guess my conclusion is same as last two crosses to tight dogs you made. Just goin along watering everything to a level that trait are washed away before you do the work of any tweaking per say.

As ocenee remarked....I just don't think it's like mixing paint and breeds ain't painting by numbers...

You may want to add a little energy to a tight family by say, just for example trying a birddog, or a little grit by adding a pit. But then it would seem the cross would then have to be doubled back to see any real conclusion.

Then you wanna type from your perch up high in a superior tone
Quote
I make some sound comments and no one comments on them...but say something a little off and I get comments...makes me wonder if that is why we have so many culls out there...
....and right after type
Quote
culling does not mean the pup or pups won't work out...it just means not in my yard...

Sound ta me like you have been and are freely admitting here to the one of the reasons so many culls are  'out there' and saying you will do it again. If I produce on that won't catch I want it permanently takin care of...for good. And I only give dogs away btw.

Seems you would have been lot better of crossing that tight kemmer to a Parker or one those plotts and bred on that in the first place and tweaked from there. I just don't get the logic dude...

....but you do you, and good luck
Logged
oconee
Strike Dog
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 462


View Profile
« Reply #152 on: April 14, 2016, 08:30:53 pm »

The book "Art of Breeding better dogs" says once an outcross is made it should be made to a tight family of dogs exhibiting the needed traits.  That offspring needs to go back to the original line you are trying to influence and it's that cross (2 generation) that one can see truly how the outcross effected the line.   I'm no breeder but I am smart enough to see going 3-5 different directions at one time will likely find you with VERY inconsistent results for several generations.  And further more, I would be ashamed if I started talking "breeding better dogs" and told how I bred to that many "hear-say" dogs and very few I had actually proved myself.  As far as the trading culls around because they may suit others goes, that's about all I needed to hear to stop taking Ol' Reuben seriously.  Good luck guys
Logged
Reuben
Internet Hog Hunting Specialist
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9481


View Profile
« Reply #153 on: April 14, 2016, 08:39:04 pm »

your are right about most of what you said... Smiley

the grandsire is 1/2 pit 1/2 redbone...which this makes my pups 1/8 of each which is not much...the 4 pups I have are almost identical...and I can't say I have hunted them as I would like but am looking hard...the other brother I did not keep because his coat was a little longer than I like is striking baying hogs...I knew I was going to get better than what I have culled...and will get as good on the next cross...

I saw the grandsire and 4 of his brothers and they all made some sort of hog dog whether it was very catchy or fair amount of hunt...

the next generation will dilute the redbone and pit even more...I like where I am at at this time...I am not going to spend a bunch of money breeding for high percentages of quality dogs and puppies as I once did...but I want to move in that direction...

I could go and get me a another pocohontas plott but and really tighten up quite a bit faster but not interested in that...

of course there will be a higher percentage of culls in the beginning but I am ok with that...

and I am confident that I will have good dogs from this point forward...it just took me quite a few years to get to this point...
Logged

Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
Slim9797
Hog Master
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1863



View Profile
« Reply #154 on: April 14, 2016, 09:34:13 pm »

So much hostility towards scatter breeding. ;(


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Logged

We run dillo dogs that trash on hogs
Reuben
Internet Hog Hunting Specialist
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9481


View Profile
« Reply #155 on: April 14, 2016, 09:51:04 pm »

So much hostility towards scatter breeding. ;(


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Once upon a time it was the only way according  to most old time breeders...times have changed and we now know there is a better way...

This time I am coming from a different angle but should get the same results...
Logged

Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
mike rogers
Strike Dog
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 277



View Profile
« Reply #156 on: April 14, 2016, 10:00:50 pm »

There is a good little old article written by Tom Stodghill  (the owner of the ARF and the first one to register the old catahoulas). It's about clockwise breeding and using a hub sir. Some even think that McDuffie may have used this info and breeding guidelines for the leopards.  If y'all want it posted then I'll dig it up this weekend.

this thread has been some good reading for me.

mike
Logged
Semmes
Alpha Dog
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 514


View Profile
« Reply #157 on: April 14, 2016, 10:03:42 pm »

I guess I could be wrong but I think the formula is centuries and centuries old...unless the old timers you speak of we're taming wolves. ....but then again it's was still the same formula...I guess I was your huckleberry in that one. ....you got me lol
Logged
Slim9797
Hog Master
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1863



View Profile
« Reply #158 on: April 14, 2016, 10:16:28 pm »




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Logged

We run dillo dogs that trash on hogs
Slim9797
Hog Master
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1863



View Profile
« Reply #159 on: April 14, 2016, 10:20:53 pm »

Trying to read that, it's very smashed together and I guess I can't wrap my head around the simplicity of the madness that is breeding dogs


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Logged

We run dillo dogs that trash on hogs
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10 ... 16   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!