Breeding Better Dogs 101...

[Semmes]

That's just line breeding on capt shep to me.

That's not throwing bunch of breeds together without doubling up in the second gen the way I glanced thru it....

But it was just a glance.
 
Guess it could be 8 dogs or three dogs like Parker's but it still revolves around breeding and culling a line in the second gen.

Bout like how dog were domesticated from wolves and every variant of dog came to be. Jmo

[Semmes]

Line breeding is line breeding and still has factors that may mask some of ol capt shep's, genetic wesknesses. In the shirt term depending on the amount and variance of females used. For tge sake of argument 8 in that example versus 3 in the Parker line. But inbreeding is the tell tale and a dif animal. Everything inbred will hit a wall eventually. That just would seem to depend on the original stock

[Semmes]

I'd like to define some things in this thread.

Most of you stock guys and I'm sure alot of dog guys already know....

First cousins and farther removed (I.e. second third and so fourth) is line breeding.

Mother/son , father/daughter, also defined as line breeding. And a widely recognized tool utilized in domestic stock and performance bred animals.of course this all gets tighter as the line goes on.

Full brother/full sister is inbreeding. This is were things get risky. Full brother/full sister out if full brother/full sister is even more so and so on
 
All this is measured in coi % bit the animals tell you the story not the chart.

[Black Streak]

Well done Judge.  Your a very patient and good teacher
   You have a rare style that breaths life back into patience.

[Reuben]

So much hostility towards scatter breeding. ;(


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Once upon a time it was the only way according  to most old time breeders...times have changed and we now know there is a better way...

This time I am coming from a different angle but should get the same results...

my theory on why it was a no no back in the old days and there were many people that felt the same way about inbreeding through the 1970's through the 1990's and I suspect even now...

there will eventually come a time where there will not be a diversified gene pool too much of the same...diversity is said to have a better immune system...the dogs will have better reproductive success among many other things...

one other theory of mine is that quite a bit of the defects must come from recessive genes because if it is passed from one parent and not the other then the trait will not be displayed and won't affect the pup...

but once we start breeding close the possibility of that pup passing on this trait goes up and when bred to a relative that has that recessive as well and now that negative trait is passed on...

In my mind issues like the above example is why the average breeder back before forums/computers stayed clear from breeding this way...

because I am not a breeding expert I also believe I have to pick the very best pup for breeding out of a litter...testing for natural ability in as many ways as I can...even the smallest of details matter...the best defense is a good offense...

[Reuben]

Slim9797...I appreciate your post and write-up you pasted...

Oconee talked about reproducing one dog and that dog to me is the Hub which in reality is exactly the same...

some folks will argue the female is the most important...I agree as well on account she is the one carrying the for 2 months and feeding them etc...I believe what we do with her before breeding and during the gestation period to be an important part in having better dogs not to mention everything else it took for her to earn her spot as a breeder...

but if we make her the hub then we will only have eight or so litters to select from in her lifetime and if we keep it ethical it will only be one litter per year...of course we can keep her around for extra litters from her if we feel we are at a good point in a breeding program...

but on the other had working on reproducing a stud dog gives us more flexibility and that is why I prefer the male to do so...he can be bred as many times as needed to get where one needs or wants to be...

[oconee]

I labeled that article "rubbage" we he said to start with 8 "unrelated females."   That was all I needed to read.

Reuben I actually lost sleep last night trying to make sense of your plan.  I'm not picking, I'm actually trying to figure it out.  From what I can tell you are planning on eventually line breeding on a dog you have not produced yet?  From what I read it appears you have decided upon a 3 way cross that you assume will produce the dog of your dreams and you plan to move forward from there?

Now don't think I'm picking, I'm just asking but if that is the plan are you trying to tell us there is NO perfect breed of dog for your style of hog hunting?  I have no problem with crossbreeding breeds but I'm of the opinion there is breeds we don't need to crossbreed and only need to be sculpted to our personal liking by seeking out the specimens from that particular breed.  I am 100% believer that cross breeding several breeds is only an attempt to "shortcut" the process of seeking out and using the VERY BEST from the breed that suits us.  I challenge anyone to name any often used breed and tell me what that breed lacks because I will guarantee there are many strains of each breed and I bet money you can find dogs WITHIN that breed that have what you think the breed is lacking.  Example:  if you think BMC''s don't have enough bottom then seek out the lines that have bottom.  If you don't think Catahoulas range out enough then find the strain that does.   I started out wanting Plotts that can mortally fly on track and I am getting close with every generation but I damn sure ain't fixing to add greyhound or some wild a-- crap like that to shortcut the process and set myself back.  The hardest part of getting a particular breed to where you want it is getting lucky enough to find that SPECIAL specimen from a line that consistently exudes you style and staying with that blood and improving through your own breeding.

 In short, hard hunting, culling, and keeping the family together is the ONLY way to do it IMO!  AND THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS!!!!

[TheRednose]

I'd like to define some things in this thread.

Most of you stock guys and I'm sure alot of dog guys already know....

First cousins and farther removed (I.e. second third and so fourth) is line breeding.

Mother/son , father/daughter, also defined as line breeding. And a widely recognized tool utilized in domestic stock and performance bred animals.of course this all gets tighter as the line goes on.

Full brother/full sister is inbreeding. This is were things get risky. Full brother/full sister out if full brother/full sister is even more so and so on
 
All this is measured in coi % bit the animals tell you the story not the chart.

I guess that all depends on who you talk to. Some breeders consider inbreeding any immediate family member so that would include your mother x son crosses and your father x daughter crosses as well. Scientifically speaking linebreeding is inbreeding, but most people classify close inbreeding as inbreeding and loose inbreeding as line breeding. So its just opinion anyways. But I have heard it the way you state it as well. Two different ways to classify it, just thought I would bring that up since this has been a good thread with tons of info and different ideas.

[liefalwepon]

Trying to read that, it's very smashed together and I guess I can't wrap my head around the simplicity of the madness that is breeding dogs


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wish they had a diagram of that with the article

[TAPOUT YOUNG]

WHAT ABOUT ABOUT HALF SISTER WITH HALF BROTHER CROSS  ? I HAVE TAKEN ONE FEMALE AND BREED TO TWO MALE DOGS AND GOT TO THIS POINT. I DIDNT SEE THIS CROSS BROUGHT UP UNLESS I MISSED IT.

[buddylee]

Breeding dogs ain't rocket science. It's common sense. The ignorant people show their ignorance by not listening because they think they know everything.

[oconee]

buddylee they may throw me off this sight but I definitely won't hold any shots if I think someone is "igonart."   So go ahead and reveal the ones we should not pay attention to.  Or better yet contribute to our conversation "positively" instead of running people down!

[Semmes]

Half siblings like parent/offspring is considered line breeding and these two methods are the the most employed and considered the best way to try and recreate an animal.

But rednose, I agree with you 100%, breeding related animals is a a form of inbreeding period. Some just tighter than others. But if done long and strong enough the end result is the same. An inbred dog.

The purpose of line/inbreeding is to recreate something worth while. Yes recessive genes will pop up as hopefully in some good perceived traits we look for will in individual animals as well.

It tells you what genetic problems you are facing and of course you cull those and are aware when outcrossing to choose another line bred tight known to not throw this. And you breed on the good offspring of course.

There is always a wall to hit tho...the point is to hit it so you can tweak it for an even better result by outcrossing judiciously.
 
Here is a thread from half year back that somewhat reverses the points that both Reuben and I make somewhat from this thread.

In this thread Reuben exhaults line breeding somewhat and I come off to sort of put it down....guess we are both hypocrites but I still defend what I wrote as not being that much dif from this thread. I think one breeding then well thought out outcrosses is the true way to breed domestic animals as has been the way since domestication.

http://www.easttexashogdoggers.com/forum/index.php?topic=92298.0

[Semmes]

I would also add, there were quite a few working breeds developed and to varying degrees refined In the period of the 1960's-70's using the same methods of breeding that are centuries old as in every other time period. ....so I just don't know what old timers we are speaking of and please cite examples of where their dogs are today? Are they still just best to best, whatever good dog comes along crosses?

[oconee]

Kyle Omstott says in his book there is NEVER a need to outcross and the biggest mistake made is by breeders hitting a bad cross and thinking they need an outcross and reversing 20 years of breeding.  This is based on a line that suits the breeder in every way.  He goes on to say out crosses are crucial in picking up needed traits but should be made with well established lines that exude the needed trait and by no means with a scatter bred super dog that has the trait and loads of unknown traits to go along with him.

[Semmes]

I agree wholeheartedly with the last half of that post ocenee.

In my previous post two back it reads' one breeding' that is supposed to read ' line breeding' auto correct ganked me

[buddylee]

Oconee, you need a joint. I listen to everyone and pick and choose the ideas I wanna try. I wasn't referring to anyone at all but it's funny u think I was referring to u.

[l.h.cracker]

So much hostility towards scatter breeding. ;(


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This thread is breeding better dogs 101 and breeding scatterbred mutts is not how you do it.Especially if consistency is what your after.Tons of valuable info on this thread.

[Reuben]

semmes...my beliefs and breeding philosophies were set before I ever came onto this forum or any forum and they have not changed...

I went this route not by choice but because it was available to me after culling many times...as a young man once I decided to breed my own line I developed a plan and I followed a system and stuck with it...the dog I wanted to reproduce was the sire, grandsire, great grandsire and  great uncle etc to some of the pups...and yes I do believe in outcrossing to the right dog at some point and I also believe that if it nicks to keep one of those pups and breed that pup back in to just add a shot of new blood...and I feel like I have to explain myself that it needs to be a dog that brings improvement to the line or to at least maintain and that dog needs to be of a good line of dogs that resembles what we have...I for sure do not ever want to flood the line with that outside blood that took time to create...it would be a big step backwards...the more we are in to it the more it needs to be guarded...my personal opinions/theories...

what I have done this time is no secret and I have said more than a few times that I was taking my time and only wanted some good dogs...I also said that I would breed in the right direction and I am close to the point where I might be there when I am ready to take the next step...I have an eye on one of my pups at this time who is half plott, 1/4 kemmer and I owned that kemmer and have her papers filed away just in case if I want to see them, also 1/8th redbone and 1/8 pitbull and yes you are right...I only went by what I was told by a long time hog dog acquaintance...everything in this breeding is hunt and nose except for the pitbull who was also a RCD...

as I already said I am at a point where if and when I decide to breed pups again I will have to be very choosy and that is why I said it was a major point or place to be...because if it works out I will breed a daughter right back to the sire and have pups to supply my needs...that is my plan...he will be the hub...

but on linebreeding...

linebreeding can be most anything...we can have the best bred and proven plott and we can breed him to an old english sheepdog and to a chow and then get the best of the pups and breed them back to the plott...no one in their right mind would do that...so when we speak of linebreeding we take for granted that we are discussing dogs of the right type and breed...

or it can be the same plott bred to his daughter and his 1/2 sister of the same caliber of dogs...or it can be something else...

Oconee...I can not comment on the reasoning behind what I do when it comes to dogs...

[Reuben]

So much hostility towards scatter breeding. ;(


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This thread is breeding better dogs 101 and breeding scatterbred mutts is not how you do it.Especially if consistency is what your after.Tons of valuable info on this thread.

here is the thing...breeding discussions is kind of like discussing politics...it can get folks a little riled up...