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Semmes
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Well it was a kind of contextual, sequential thing that led me to react. In page four of this thread Larry was typing in a couple posts a bit about his program and thoughts on heavy line breeding, and culling and uniformity of color, type and how it fit in his mind that those traits also fit in with fixing type in the areas of drive he looked for as well. Whatever, I can't put words in his mouth. But directly after that on the first post you made on page 5 as a kid we did not worm or vaccinate our dogs and they were all mutts...mutts have a very diversified gene pool...the first pure bred pup I got very sick and it was my first trip to the vet ever...he said the pup caught distemper and would die and he did...a not so diverse gene pool so the pups will all look alike etc...
Right now there are major issues with tigers/pandas and other animals that are on the endangered list due to a lack of diversity in their genes...and they say that this is a major issue that needs fixing if the species of these animals are to survive and not become extinct...the issues are low ferility, inability to fight off disease etc...
I saw smaller testicles and some smaller dog and litter size slightly smaller...but they were hunting hunting dogs...
Larry, I remember when you announced in the back pages of Full Cry that you were starting a line of dogs...was a good while back... You kinda seemed to to dig directly at line breeding, health, and 'all pups look alike' when Larry was the only one I read that made mention of a phenotype specification. Then there was that unfinished, open ended last statement at that post which you directed at Parker and there was very little connotation to that sentence. Leading me to believe the post was directed at him as in when writing usually the first opening statement and the closing statement it is structurally important to tie together and finish a train of thought. Maybe it wasn't the case, maybe in the only who saw it, maybe other members did as well? But I thought it was passive/aggressive and mentioned so... Then after few more pages you flipped back and fourth a few times in my eyes between the virtues and the detriments of line breeding kinda willy nilly flipping sides and, I thought contradicting yourself.... I felt it was kinda odd and thought I'd go ahead and point it out is all... |
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Semmes
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Not to mention the fact that between the steps of the 4, to 5 breed (if you were to purchase a Parker to add, like you suggested) cross has been no line breeding or back breeding selection between the steps to even remotely refine it. Leaving the scheme, in my eyes totally so scattered with variables it would take quite a while to sort out...just kinda wierd approach
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Semmes
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In all I've heard, read and seen over the years the second gen of a cross, line bred or tightened on in some way, of with there are many, would be way more telling than the initial hybrid/battle cross as far as breeding usefulness. And telling what is lacking if anything. Instead of directly from one cross to the next. Which is just scatter breeding, by definition, and adding variables to be sorted
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mike rogers
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Been an interesting thread.
In the end we all breed the way we want to breed. We breed the type of dog that we like to hunt, that benefits us, pleases us or even just something we just like looking at. Whether we have luck in line breeding and inbreeding or outcrossing. In the end it's up to the individuals on the directions we take.
We all have opinions on how to get to where we want to be. Respecting each other opinions and thoughts on how to get there as we go. Learning a little here and there and teaching a little here and there.
I like the line and inbreeding part of dog breeding myself. Mainly to help control the good traits compared to the bad ones. Only outcrossing to a cousin when the line needs it. To tight and you'll loose size and sometimes stability in the litter and too loose we take the chance on a couple of generations of bad characteristics were we're back breeding to get away from it and get back to what we had. Breeding like dogs to like dogs in a family can sure help you get a line that produces a consistent litters. The hybrid vigor in a male in an outcross is sometimes lost after the 2nd and 3rd generations when not line breeding. Yes the hybrid can and does produce top quality pups it's just sometimes those pups wont produce the vigor of the original male. Don't forget the females in this equation too. I believe a female is more important than the males sometimes. After all she caring and introducing 50% of pups genes.
mike
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mike rogers
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Where's Barlow? This thread is right in his wheelhouse...
boy it sure is. I've talked to Brian about leopards and blue lacys a while back. In fact I'm still looking into those yellow and leopard spotted lacys that Brian talked about. Mainly the leopard spotted ones. If anyone has seen one then please let me know. |
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TexasHogDogs
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I was just thinking back on the old bulldog days. The ole time great breeders started out to build a line of dogs. Most started with three four maybe five outstanding performace dogs that they loved. The dogs most likely would be no kin. The breeder would then start to make his breedings culling hard and at first would be crosses but as the years flew by the dogs would become one big family of dogs as he would take no outside dogs in.
Then as the dogs needed a cross he would take his newest generation of family dogs say 2 ..2 1/2 years old and proven and breed them to his oldest generation of dogs say 9/10 year old stud dogs and brood bitches.
This is what is called a back cross amoung family dogs. What this does some of the time you will end up recreating a old dog that was the foundation of your line of dogs. I have even seen with my own two eyes this bringing back what was the almost excate replica of a throwback dog of over 200 years back in the history of the bloodline. I had it happen and we didn't even know what it was are where it come from. As it was put it out on the net got calls from everywhere.
A dog breefer finally track it down in Europe and even sent me a hand painting from the 1700's as I open the package we like to fell out. There was the painting of a dig that looked identical to mine. It ended up being traced back to the Blue Paul Fighting Dog of the early 1700's.
Ain't that something!!!!!!! The dog was so heavily inbred this what the gene pool threw back.
Anyway a back family cross will give a man another Maybe 10 to 15 years if breeding his family line without a real cross.
Food for thought.
If a man starts to build his line on all kin inbred and heavy line bred dogs he will get not nearly as far. So he damn well better like his dogs because I can gurentee you he will cross are loose his line.
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The older I get the less Stupidity I can stand !
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TexasHogDogs
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As a matter of fact the man that traced all this down was the man that started Limey Kennelsbin Europe. We became friends they came and stayed with me my wife and kids for two weeks. He brought me a gift I never expected. As I picked them up at the air port he said come with me he went over and picked up a dog create and said here he is yours. LoL it was a solid black Limey Alligator dog the most line bred Limey Alligator dog in history other than his sister. These Alligator dogs where bred down from the old famous Plummers Alligator dog here in the USA. Pure Dibo Bred. First Limey Alligator dog imported into the USA.
Two months later he flew back over here with a gyp she was in heat and bred her to my Ripper dog one of the best Nigerinio dogs to ever look threw a collar. Till this day still has the cross.....Long long story lol
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The older I get the less Stupidity I can stand !
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Judge peel
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That's a cool story
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Georgia-Hawgs
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What he said ^ thanks for sharing.
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Take your kids hunting and you wont have to hunt your kids
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Bryant
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Barlow's an interesting guy and I miss having him around, although we still correspond from time to time.
I guarantee, you'll not find someone who has traveled the world and studied (by seeing...not by reading) dogs more than he has. He isn't scared to hear about someone hunting and raising a good line of dogs and just pick up and move there for a while to see and get to know them. Heck, that's how we all met him in the first place.
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A truly rich man is one whose children rush to fill his arms even though his hands are empty.
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Cajun
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Barlow's an interesting guy and I miss having him around, although we still correspond from time to time.
I guarantee, you'll not find someone who has traveled the world and studied (by seeing...not by reading) dogs more than he has. He isn't scared to hear about someone hunting and raising a good line of dogs and just pick up and move there for a while to see and get to know them. Heck, that's how we all met him in the first place.
Bryant, did he ever tell y'all his stories on bear hunting in West Va. I enjoyed the site he used too have. I can tell you one thing, nobody has researched Plotts any harder then he has & if he took another interest in a breed of dogs, he left no stone unturned trying to find out how they were bred or their origins. |
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Bayou Cajun Plotts
Happiness is a empty dogbox
Relentless pursuit
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Reuben
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as a kid we did not worm or vaccinate our dogs and they were all mutts...mutts have a very diversified gene pool...the first pure bred pup I got very sick and it was my first trip to the vet ever...he said the pup caught distemper and would die and he did...a not so diverse gene pool so the pups will all look alike etc...
Right now there are major issues with tigers/pandas and other animals that are on the endangered list due to a lack of diversity in their genes...and they say that this is a major issue that needs fixing if the species of these animals are to survive and not become extinct...the issues are low ferility, inability to fight off disease etc...
I saw smaller testicles and some smaller dog and litter size slightly smaller...but they were hunting hunting dogs...
Larry, I remember when you announced in the back pages of Full Cry that you were starting a line of dogs...was a good while back...
Semmes...you responded to this post by saying I was passive/aggressive and then it all went down hill from there...then you called me a hypocrite further on down and then I felt like I was on trial with no representation...lol when you mentioned passive aggressive I never could figure out why you said that so I just left it alone... after reading my post again it was pretty half azz but I was coming down with a cold and didn't proof read it... My thoughts were to bring up inbreeding issues with reduced gene pools in some endangered animal in the zoo...I said that to bring up in general that all purebred dogs have a somewhat reduced gene pool and more, the more inbred they are... I brought up my experiences growing up as a kidas...I never had a purebred dog and none of our dogs were vaccinated nor wormed...I said this to further bring up hardiness in a diversified gene pool...I also said that the first prebred puppy I bought got sick and that was my first trip to the vet ever...and the pup died so that was my first encounter with a purebred...just sharing info was all I was trying to do without writing a book... I brought this up because someone mentioned something about never outcross or no need to outcross...so I thought it was a good time to bring that up... since Larry Parker was on this thread I thought I would casually throw that out there about his announcement some 25/30 or more years ago...I thought I saw it in the back pages of the Full Cry magazine...I did not mean it in a negative way at all...but looking into the post it just gets thrown out there out of no where so I guess anyone could get it wrong including Larry...But having said that I was hoping Larry would talk about those days...I have been interested in the Parker curs because there has been much positive talk about them... So...since you got pretty upset about it I will explain in more detail so you can understand why I said what I said... Larry made that announcement and he met and possibly exceeded his goals on account he has a line of hog dogs that could possibly be a breed called the Parker curs...so I was recognizing his accomplishments...no more was said about it after it went downhill from there... on the hypocrite comments... I have said several times these dogs were not how I wanted bred but it worked out that way...yes we should do all we can to know the dogs we will breed...I knew the kemmers well and I felt I knew the plotts well enough...true not much on the redbone and leggy pit but I have known the owner for many years and value his input...knew who he was many years before I actually met him... I had already been jacking around with trying to get the breeding going...culled one whole litter because I just needed an excuse to get rid of the pure kemmers...went through a bunch of culls and a ruptured uterus on a good female when bred...too much to list... so I bred that kemmer to that halfbreed and got a few good pups and I thought I would move forward with it... just because I went this route does not make me a hypocrite...believing in one way and changing directions to make something happen and even speaking about it on here several times should say something...not trying to hide anything about the dogs... having done it this way may take somewhat longer but I am very confident I will recover within the next generation...not having the best in all things but good dogs... yes this is getting long so I will add more a little later... I said I was at a very important place with these dogs because the female I get will determine the direction I take...The pup I have my eye on may be my hub for a few generations if he continues on his growth... In my opinion a great dog is not only great in the woods but also in the breeding pen...based on that I do not have one right now...but like I said...my goal is to gravitate in that direction... |
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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Semmes
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Not upset...that ain't the right word...maybe a bit put off...but not upset...
It's cool, I'm willing to squash it if you are.
I really had no place sinking in on ya anyhow...
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Reuben
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I'm ok with it as well...
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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Black Streak
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The funny thing about these sites is how small of a world it actually is. You see everytime I get into a debate on here I get countless PM's about the person I'm debating with. When me and you (Black Sheep) went around a few months ago folks came out of the wood works to tell me about hunts with your junky "finder holders." Now I can't place any value on hearsay but I will say it wasn't just a few folks that felt the need to tell me about you and your dogs, it was several! Now here me and THD are going around and guess what.......... yep not to many impressed with him either. I don't see why anyone would lie about past experiences with you or him but I figure were there is smoke there has to be a little flame.
Now having said that, tell us all how many folks that ACTUALLY hunted with me and my dogs have PM'ed you and ran me down? No need to identify, just tell me how many.
If anyone has hunted behind my finder holders please identify yourself. No one on this sight has hunted behind my finder holders. Your now lying to try to give credit to yourself over me. |
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TheRednose
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Barlow's an interesting guy and I miss having him around, although we still correspond from time to time.
I guarantee, you'll not find someone who has traveled the world and studied (by seeing...not by reading) dogs more than he has. He isn't scared to hear about someone hunting and raising a good line of dogs and just pick up and move there for a while to see and get to know them. Heck, that's how we all met him in the first place.
I have read his posts and noticed how he was always traveling to see them first hand. Man with all of the adventures and things he knows and seen he should write a book or keep an online journal like with a group page on facebook or something. |
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Black Streak
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The funny thing about these sites is how small of a world it actually is. You see everytime I get into a debate on here I get countless PM's about the person I'm debating with. When me and you (Black Sheep) went around a few months ago folks came out of the wood works to tell me about hunts with your junky "finder holders." Now I can't place any value on hearsay but I will say it wasn't just a few folks that felt the need to tell me about you and your dogs, it was several! Now here me and THD are going around and guess what.......... yep not to many impressed with him either. I don't see why anyone would lie about past experiences with you or him but I figure were there is smoke there has to be a little flame.
Now having said that, tell us all how many folks that ACTUALLY hunted with me and my dogs have PM'ed you and ran me down? No need to identify, just tell me how many.
I can stand on my own two feet instead of needing others to help me with credibility unlike what your tactic. Just gives more credibility to your insecurity to play that kinda game. I've had people tell me things about dogs that have seen come off your yard and you would not be very proud of what they said. Never heard anything good about you or your dogs but then again I've never heard much about you or your dogs to speak of. I don't run in bay dog bulldog circles either. I don't hunt with anyone from this forum because I hunt straight catch dogs. Closest person I know to me that does the is 3.5 hours away up in the panhandle of Texas. I run 2 dogs at a time too. Not like people of my style travel long distances to hunt their dogs with another's dogs. Just don't do that with dogs like this because you only use a couple dogs and their are so few of use. We do talk though, share stories, and talk about our dogs off this forum but I met them in large part to this forum. |
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liefalwepon
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He's just baiting you, he said it himself he just comes on here to mess with people
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WHACK EM N STACK EM!!!
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Goose87
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The funny thing about these sites is how small of a world it actually is. You see everytime I get into a debate on here I get countless PM's about the person I'm debating with. When me and you (Black Sheep) went around a few months ago folks came out of the wood works to tell me about hunts with your junky "finder holders." Now I can't place any value on hearsay but I will say it wasn't just a few folks that felt the need to tell me about you and your dogs, it was several! Now here me and THD are going around and guess what.......... yep not to many impressed with him either. I don't see why anyone would lie about past experiences with you or him but I figure were there is smoke there has to be a little flame.
Now having said that, tell us all how many folks that ACTUALLY hunted with me and my dogs have PM'ed you and ran me down? No need to identify, just tell me how many.
I can stand on my own two feet instead of needing others to help me with credibility unlike what your tactic. Just gives more credibility to your insecurity to play that kinda game. I've had people tell me things about dogs that have seen come off your yard and you would not be very proud of what they said. Never heard anything good about you or your dogs but then again I've never heard much about you or your dogs to speak of. I don't run in bay dog bulldog circles either. I don't hunt with anyone from this forum because I hunt straight catch dogs. Closest person I know to me that does the is 3.5 hours away up in the panhandle of Texas. I run 2 dogs at a time too. Not like people of my style travel long distances to hunt their dogs with another's dogs. Just don't do that with dogs like this because you only use a couple dogs and their are so few of use. We do talk though, share stories, and talk about our dogs off this forum but I met them in large part to this forum. Man you really do have issues letting stuff blow over don't you, you say you've never hunted with anybody on this forum so what does it matter what they say to you. Geez this place is getting ridiculous, this used to be a very informative sight but there can hardly be a post made without a bunch grown folks who label themselves as men getting in a pissing match over the most absurd things, until the day someone starts paying your bills or feed bill then why worry what they say and constantly having to explain yourself. |
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Mike
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Don't worry Goose... I'm cleaning house now. Oconee was the first to go, if anyone wants to join him keep acting like a school girl.
It's a damn shame grown men act the way some have in this thread... hell, I'm embarrassed for them.
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