Breeding Better Dogs 101...

[WayOutWest]

Most of the best ol pit dog guys felt the same. You were in business if you could find that brood gyp.

[Mike]

Hog Dog Mike, are the majority of good bird dogs heavily line bred or do most breeders breed best to best?

[buddylee]

I have 2 females that I don't hunt. One guy had 2 really good dogs off of one of the females. I told him that the mother had never been to a bay. She'd only caught 1 or 2 hogs in the woods. He told me I was crazy for breeding him. I asked him if he liked the 2 dogs off of her. He promptly shut up. The female was breed "right".
These 2 femsles are fired up and throw a high percentage of good rough hog dogs. I have a granddaughter to one of them that has her grandmothers fire. She's gonna get breed after I hunt her more. For some reason Id rather have a brood female than male.

[Goose87]

My neighbor who is a bird dog man told me the same thing, his name is Cecil Ray Rester, he breeds English pointers I believe, I was over there not to long ago talking to him and he told me he would only breed a gyp one time and if the pups didn't meet his expectations then she was sold or fixed, he has a gyp name Fannie Mae that he won a national title with and he bred her to a male known to reproduce, he said he thought the pups were sub par to his expectations so he spayed her and now only field trials and pleasure hunts her, he told me that all the years he's been in the dog business that 4 good females have kept him in good dogs.

[TexasHogDogs]

I am an old man and have bred a few hog dogs. I have bred lots of bird dogs and worked harder at it than most people do at jobs. One time I counted up the bird dogs I personally owned and quit when I got to 200.

Here is the deal and take it for what it is worth. Many hog dogs are not registered so it is hard to trace bloodlines. Bird dog men have been keeping track for well over 100 years. A registration certificate has 3 numbers under the dogs registration number. The first number is the number of wins that dog has, the 2nd is the number of winners that dog produced, and the 3rd number is the number of wins that the off spring had. Just because a dog has a great number of wins means nothing because some of them cannot produce winners. One group started keeping track of winners produced per times bred and that is the one to go with.

The American Field is a publication that comes out weekly and you can keep up with which dogs are running and winning. You can also which of their offspring are winning. Some of the articles depend on who is writing the article. Once I got to judging field trials I could  not wait to see some of the famous dogs actually run. What a shock for me. MY thought was this dog cannot possibly be the dog I read about.

Here is what I would do. The bird dog guys learned long ago that the horse guys had been doing it longer than they had. One of their secrets was a PRODUCING FEMALE. They are referred to as a blue hen. They can produce good dogs bred to any number of good males. One bitch named Hot Haunches produced 6 champions our of 6 different male dogs. She could just produce.

I would look for a producing female and I want to see the dogs with my eyes the dogs she produced. Breed her to a producing male and I want to see the dogs he produced with my eyes. Some guys tend to run the good females and not breed them which is a mistake. If you do that you will be way yonder ahead in the game.

I could not agree more.

[Reuben]

I am an old man and have bred a few hog dogs. I have bred lots of bird dogs and worked harder at it than most people do at jobs. One time I counted up the bird dogs I personally owned and quit when I got to 200.

Here is the deal and take it for what it is worth. Many hog dogs are not registered so it is hard to trace bloodlines. Bird dog men have been keeping track for well over 100 years. A registration certificate has 3 numbers under the dogs registration number. The first number is the number of wins that dog has, the 2nd is the number of winners that dog produced, and the 3rd number is the number of wins that the off spring had. Just because a dog has a great number of wins means nothing because some of them cannot produce winners. One group started keeping track of winners produced per times bred and that is the one to go with.

The American Field is a publication that comes out weekly and you can keep up with which dogs are running and winning. You can also which of their offspring are winning. Some of the articles depend on who is writing the article. Once I got to judging field trials I could  not wait to see some of the famous dogs actually run. What a shock for me. MY thought was this dog cannot possibly be the dog I read about.

Here is what I would do. The bird dog guys learned long ago that the horse guys had been doing it longer than they had. One of their secrets was a PRODUCING FEMALE. They are referred to as a blue hen. They can produce good dogs bred to any number of good males. One bitch named Hot Haunches produced 6 champions our of 6 different male dogs. She could just produce.

I would look for a producing female and I want to see the dogs with my eyes the dogs she produced. Breed her to a producing male and I want to see the dogs he produced with my eyes. Some guys tend to run the good females and not breed them which is a mistake. If you do that you will be way yonder ahead in the game.

excellent post...thanks for sharing...

I believe a good female after proving herself needs to be taken care of as well...

[Hog Dog Mike]

Hog Dog Mike, are the majority of good bird dogs heavily line bred or do most breeders breed best to best?

Some are and some are best to best. The only thing that I know for sure is if you make a definitive statement about a dog along will come an exception. I started in the 60s and really got onto it heavy in the 70s. I had to pay my bird dog dues in money, time, and miles.

When I first started I didn't really know anything but figured that field trailers were the ones that do. It is like everything else in that some do and some don't. The trailers I got some dogs from were the wrong ones and it set me back years. They had some dogs that were bred in the purple but were just not very good. I bought a dog off of one of them whose sire was a National Champion and the dam was a direct daughter of a National Champion. It  don't get any better than that but the dog was worthless and it cost me about 3 or 4 years trying to bring him around. The trailer kept telling me he needed more work. I hauled the dog miles and miles and worked him over pen birds, pigeons, and wild birds. Finally  I culled him.

I got with a sure enough trainer that knew more about dogs and horses than anybody I have ever seen in my life. He took me to northwestern Oklahoma where we worked dogs in the summer. Then I got to go to the King Ranch with him in south Texas in the winter. I spent hours and hours in the saddle watching dogs. I spent hours watching dogs in front of trucks on the King and listening to my friend tell me about dogs.

One trip shortly after that was to south Texas down around Crystal City. Lots of birds. No excuses there for any dog. When I got back I kept one dog that was 14 months old and culled the rest. I got a couple of pups off of my friend and acquired another female and shortly had 4 scorpions. No holes in any of them. Wound up getting two more dogs to give me 6 that could run with anything, anywhere, anytime. Once you know what you are looking for cull anything that does not cut the mustard. A cull will eat more and live FOREVER.

You got to watch the dog jockeys because they will ruin your program. They do their best work in a bar or coffee shop. Seems that always the great dogs are either dead or not there. I have to run the ones in my dog box.

It is the same situation with labs, hounds, or squirrel dogs too.

[Reuben]

Hog Dog Mike...

what can you say about the legendary Elhew line of English pointers and the original man behind them, Bob Wehle? I have been rather fascinated with his abilities as a promoter and breeder of some of his legendary dogs of yesteryear...I know he had the money to hunt and import dogs and to breed the ultimate English Pointers from what I have read and heard...I do know they were hard hunting and some of the most beautiful pointers I ever saw...I remember seeing 8 week old puppy pictures of some of these pups pointing bird wings...natural pointing and birdie instincts...

you having quite a bit of field trial experience so if you don't mind I would like to hear your thoughts on what so many doogers were saying back in the 1970's and 1980's about the field trials ruining the hunting dogs...this was coming from the hunters that did not field trial...I reckon the bottom line is that the field trialers were breeding to win and not worry so much about anything else...

What I remember is the coon hunters were saying the hounds are passing up good tracks to find a smoking hot track...also saying the dogs were ranging too far and hunting for themselves...

The retiever folks were saying that the field trial dogs were high strung and hard headed...had to keep a tight rein on them and will tear up the back yard if left unsupervised...did not double as pets like a hunting lab etc...etc...

The bird dog hunters were saying the field trials were ruining the dogs...especially the English pointers...they hunt for themselves it was said and you could not walk hunt behind them etc...etc...

It seems that about that time the German Short Hair became more popular because they were bred to have a strong hunting instinct yet were closer ranging dogs...hunting with or for the hunter...

These are some of the things I read and heard back in those days that folks were writing and saying...I don't hear much about it anymore...

so...with your vast experience as a field trialer and dog man, what are your thoughts on what I have written? I think it would be interesting and educational especially for the younger readers...thanks...

 

[Hog Dog Mike]

Hog Dog Mike...

what can you say about the legendary Elhew line of English pointers and the original man behind them, Bob Wehle? I have been rather fascinated with his abilities as a promoter and breeder of some of his legendary dogs of yesteryear...I know he had the money to hunt and import dogs and to breed the ultimate English Pointers from what I have read and heard...I do know they were hard hunting and some of the most beautiful pointers I ever saw...I remember seeing 8 week old puppy pictures of some of these pups pointing bird wings...natural pointing and birdie instincts...

you having quite a bit of field trial experience so if you don't mind I would like to hear your thoughts on what so many doogers were saying back in the 1970's and 1980's about the field trials ruining the hunting dogs...this was coming from the hunters that did not field trial...I reckon the bottom line is that the field trialers were breeding to win and not worry so much about anything else...

What I remember is the coon hunters were saying the hounds are passing up good tracks to find a smoking hot track...also saying the dogs were ranging too far and hunting for themselves...

The retiever folks were saying that the field trial dogs were high strung and hard headed...had to keep a tight rein on them and will tear up the back yard if left unsupervised...did not double as pets like a hunting lab etc...etc...

The bird dog hunters were saying the field trials were ruining the dogs...especially the English pointers...they hunt for themselves it was said and you could not walk hunt behind them etc...etc...

It seems that about that time the German Short Hair became more popular because they were bred to have a strong hunting instinct yet were closer ranging dogs...hunting with or for the hunter...

These are some of the things I read and heard back in those days that folks were writing and saying...I don't hear much about it anymore...

so...with your vast experience as a field trialer and dog man, what are your thoughts on what I have written? I think it would be interesting and educational especially for the younger readers...thanks...

 

No problem. Here is the way the deal worked. Robert G. Whele turned his name around basackwards and named his kennel Elhew. He was from New York but also had a place in the south east. He wrote a book on bird dog training (Wing and Shot) and lots of folks swore by Elhew dogs. I got the book )(in the 70s), read it, and thought that I had it all figured out. All you have to do is go buy a Elhew dog and you were set. According to the writings they almost broke them selves, would out point, out back, out find, out everything anything coming down the pike. You have to actually buy a dog from his kennel to put the Elhew name in front on your dogs pedigree. Example you could not name a dog Elhew Jake but could name it Murphy's Elhew Jake.

I found a rich guy in Dallas that had several dogs he bought from Whele. I bought one and my buddy bought one. In my opinion they are inbred and you will see that if you run one, hunt one, or judge one. Mine would do pretty good for about 30 minutes and then she was going back to the truck and you could not stop her. My buddies dog was below average at best. Lots of them that I trained and observed seemed to be weak minded. Put some pressure on them and they would come apart. Not really tough dogs.

A friend of Whele named Dr. Alvin Nitchman ran a lot of dogs with Elhew blood but they were not the inbred ones. He did pretty good and had several winning dogs such as the Pork Roll dog. I had some good dogs that had a little Elhew blood in them way back.

The guys that bad mouth the field trial dogs probably got sold a cull from a field trailer. They will tell them Jake is a great hunting dog but just not run enough to be a field trial dog. Heard that many times and it is a dog jockey line. I personally owned dogs that won open horseback stakes, amateur horseback stakes, walking stakes, shoot to retrieve stakes, calcuttas, and could be hunted from foot, horse, truck, or 4 wheeler. Don't think a champion field trial dog cannot be handled on foot because they can.

When I finally got with some folks that really had some great dogs I ran mostly Rebel bred dogs. They were just smarter, tougher, and above all handled very well.

I don't know much about coon dogs. I will take a field trial retriever every single time. They are all great hunting dogs. If you doubt me go to an open trial and just watch the tests they have to do. Unbelievable. Any lab will tear up your yard because they are supposed to be in a kennel.

The bird hunter guys that bad mouth field trial pointers just watched the culls that got pawned off on hunters. I owned field trial dogs that I could hunt any kind of way you wanted to hunt. More than likely it was a dog that would not handle a lick. You can win a trial with all kinds of dogs but not a lost dog. A bird hunter organization had a trial that was a Calcutta. You had to buy braces once the names were drawn. All this money went into a pot and was awarded according to placements 1-5. Some serious money was involved. It was kind of a phony deal because it was only 6 minutes long and the deal was kill as many birds as quick as possible. I entered twice and won every placement and they banned me. The bird hunters got their plow cleaned by the field trial dogs. Most guys putting the bad mouth on field trial dogs has NEVER even seen a real one.

Here is the deal on German Shorthairs. If they are as good as pointers why do they have restricted field trials. Same thing on Britts,  and Irish setters. I have seen exactly 1 GSP run in a horseback trial and it did not place. I saw one good one back in the 80s at a trial down around Waco.

The hunting camp on the King Ranch had 50 dogs that they owned @ 4,000.00 each. They had 35 dogs at the lease on the Jones ranch @ 4,000.00 each. My friend leased them another 35 dogs. We also had several field trial dogs and others that we were breaking and tuning up. The owners were oil men and money was no object.

All of the dogs were English Pointers with the exception of a hand full of English Setters. It takes a special dog to run in the heat day after day, in front of a truck,  and they are better at it than any other. That is just a proven fact. I don't think a GSP has ever even qualified to run in the National Championship (there is only one) much less won it. Same thing for Britts and if a Irish Setter ever done it  was a loooooooooooooooong time ago.

I have judged a few Irish Setters and ran in some of their trials. I ran in the open trial because all the others were restricted. To this day I have yet to EVER see any Irish Setter actually point a bird, hold it, and let you flush it. One friend of mine just loved them and wanted to bring the breed back. He spent enough money on them to buy a black land farm and if he ever won anything in open competition I never knew it.

There are a lot of GSPs up in South Dakota where I pheasant hunt. They seem to do well there and my guess is that they handle the cold weather better. I hunted them when hunting for Hungarian Partridges and they did OK. Not as fast as a pointer but got the job done.

We mainly use labs for pheasants with an occasional Springer Spaniel. They do an outstanding job and they are not the giant fat labs that you see around here. These dogs cover some ground when they hunt.

[Cajun]

Rueban said:

The retiever folks were saying that the field trial dogs were high strung and hard headed...had to keep a tight rein on them and will tear up the back yard if left unsupervised...did not double as pets like a hunting lab etc…etc…

I used to field trial Labs back in the 70's & can tell you, I'll take a field trial bred Lab over a hunting bred Lab anyday. I cannot stand to see a dog trot out to retrieve a bird & trot back. I want them running all out going & coming. Here is the deal. You can hunt a field trial bred Lab but you cannot field trial a Lab just trained for hunting. Like Hogdog Mike said, the tests they put these dogs thru is unbelievable. All Labs their first year or two & this goes for all the Retriever breeds will chew up everything. I will take the higher strung dog that lives for retrieving over the dog that is so nonchalant, could really care less if he goes & gets a bird or not. I have said these before & it pertains to almost every breed of dog out there, you can put brakes on a dog but you cannot put a motor in them. It has to be in them from the start. The Labs to day are two different breeds. They have the field Trial Labs & show Labs or a lot of Labs with showblood in them. Labs have become so popular that a lot of the desire to retrieve has been bred out of them & they are mostly just pets.
  On the Coonhounds, the way they are set up, you heard right, they have gone to a hard hunting, hot nose dog that trees a lot of coon. Same with the running dogs. They have hunted in pens so much, they have literally bred the nose off of foxhounds because of hunting in pens.

[parker49]

I'm different I believe in a dominate male  over  any female ....     a  dominate  male  bred  to  3  different outcross females  will usually throw a big likeness to  himself ....I've  never seen that in a female   ..  that's just what I've seen ....

[Judge peel]

Hog dog mike what breed or crosses do you run on hogs ?


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[Bryant]

Hog Dog Mike,

I 100% fully agree with you on the female and you're right...the horse guys figured it out a long time ago.

A month or so ago I was at the guys place who does my collections and we were discussing how much of a game changer it will be in the dog breeding world when they perfect being able to flush and freeze eggs and do embryo transplants. 

[CHRIS H.]

Hello hog dog Mike

Do you happen to know John Rabidou ., Uodibar kennels ?

I'm a young field trialer pretty much going through what you've said . I go all over the country running dogs off horse and go get guidance  from pros when I can .

[parker49]

there's a difference  in the horses  Bryant .....  dogs  have  multiple  offspring  in a litter ..... not  horning in on your  comment  just a little  conversation .... I like talking dogs ..... it all opinions  ......

[TheRednose]

Personally I like having a good brood stable but I could do it either way. First of all Horses are different because they only have one foal at a time usually. So that is why brood mares are so valuable. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Keep in mind scientific fact both male and female contribute 50% to their offspring. I would use one of two strategies.

One strategy is you have good brood females because great stud dogs are made public a lot of the time, it is next to impossible to get a pup out of a "blue hen" unless you own it or are in that circle but there are lots of top stud dogs accessible. So that is why a lot people look for good brood females.

But their is another strategy people in the bulldog world use with Males, won't work with horses of course because what was previously stated. It is if they have a top stud dog they stud them out to bitches they like for pups back, they make pup deals. You can accumulate a lot of good pups quickly this way.

[parker49]

the stud dogs I use  are real high hog instinct hunters ....all I  need to do is duplicate   them...so I breed too couple females probably half sisters and  breed those  offspring that look and  show his  desire and looks .... keeps  me  in dogs .......   

[Goose87]

There's valid points both ways and either way is good if your dealing with good specimens to start with, I would like to think a man would be ahead of the game if he had a stringer of good prepotent females, but as Mr. Larry has stated a man could go the way of the good stud dog as well, the proof is in the pudding either because it has already been done for years in other disciplines of the dog game, far as the embryo transfer work, I'm not saying it wouldn't work because I'm sure it has already been done but I would think being dogs are multiple offspring in a single whelping type of animal would make it difficult.

[Mike]

Larry, which crosses produce your better dogs?Half brother/sister, aunt/nephew, mother/son, etc...

[parker49]

 it depends mike on the dog its test litter's ...even though they make dogs if they don't look right to for what I want I move on to something else .....right now I have  4 young gyps 3 off joe  x blister... blister is a friend of mines dog she is off a dog out of joe's littermate brother... I have one that is off my male dog sue x coyote she is a daughter of joe and sue is also a grandson of joes littermate brother .....also he is a grandson of joe ......whoow hope I got that all right..... now my son has a dog named slim that is out of joe littermate to coyote he's the real deal find dog .....we are  now breeding him cross  some  joe daughters as well as  sue daughter's and  sue  cross some  joe daughter's ..... my 2  boys has  2  gyps  out  of sue and two littermate sisters out of joe and e  use  them bred back on there uncle slim out of joe .....  hahahha its a mess .....  but that's why mine is looking such much alike ..... but I do like breeding dolike breeding 2 littermate sisters cross one good male  and  hopefully cross the offspring .....