The Science of Stop

[Slim9797]

If you run a bunch of culls like me that can't even find a pig, then you never have to worry about them breaking bay and running. There for you don't have to stop them... Yeah that's right boys I figured this whole game out!


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[justincorbell]

I have relatively loose baying, cowdog style curs, they get beat sometimes like any other dog, but them jokers can fly, they get ahead and they are persuasive. The older/ better ones combine speed and experience to bay hogs and they don't have to be cob rough to get the job done.

I don't wanna argue with anybody but ill give an anecdote;

ive got an old bitch who got crippled a couple years ago putting a boar back into a sounder and early this year I pulled her out of retirement purely for her own enjoyment and after about the 7th or 8th hog of the night, she lined out another big sow and was busting butt trying to stop her in the thicket when the sow couldn't stand the heat and tried to cut an open field to gain some distance. less than 200 yards into the field she was bayed solid, when we got to her we realized the bitch had been cut thru the tendon on her GOOD back leg! She had run down that sow carrying herself heavy on the front end, using her crippled leg to push off of! 

sounds like pure HEART to me.

Lots of things I have seen, but that one example reinforces to me that a dog don't have to be loose or rough, hound or cur, they just have to "be able", and "want to" more than the hog.

[warrent423]

I'm 45 and have been working cattle and hogs with Florida bred cur dogs since I was 9. Stock bred, front end dogs that are rough enough to attempt to stop any cattle or hogs that would run from them. Had some that would stay hung and some that would come off and bay after the stop. Situation dictated which dogs or dog I would use. There are some good stock bred cur dogs that will stop and keep a hog bayed without ever putting teeth on it, but in my experience, rank stock will usually run "over" a dog or set of dogs that will not hang on them. With this being said, some stock seem to just be unstoppable until they get wore down. I prefer all my curs to be hard catch dogs when needed. Being able to control their catch is priceless

[jdt]

your right warren !




     blackstreak = l 3 x 10   

[Black Streak]

that sure sounds good streak but breeding ain't that simple ....  I been breeding the same line of dogs I started 30 years ago...and all mine  go back to 3  dogs one male and 2 females ......and I can tell you all  these  breedings of crosses to achieve traits would take  you years  to prove  up with those  crosses  before  you ever  become consistant .....I just got  mine bred in the past few years to where they all look the same without any throw backs and thats atleast 25 years  of  breeding the same  dogs ....

My finder holder bred dogs have 18 plus years behind there breeding.     Plus there are more ways than one to breed.      Best to best or line breeding to name a couple.    Why do you need rcd's to look alike.       These dogs are breed for function not what they look like.    If I wanted to breed dogs for looks, I most certainly wouldn't have bred my finder holder bitch to the dog i did.   

[Reuben]

that sure sounds good streak but breeding ain't that simple ....  I been breeding the same line of dogs I started 30 years ago...and all mine  go back to 3  dogs one male and 2 females ......and I can tell you all  these  breedings of crosses to achieve traits would take  you years  to prove  up with those  crosses  before  you ever  become consistant .....I just got  mine bred in the past few years to where they all look the same without any throw backs and thats atleast 25 years  of  breeding the same  dogs ....

My finder holder bred dogs have 18 plus years behind there breeding.     Plus there are more ways than one to breed.      Best to best or line breeding to name a couple.    Why do you need rcd's to look alike.       These dogs are breed for function not what they look like.    If I wanted to breed dogs for looks, I most certainly wouldn't have bred my finder holder bitch to the dog i did.   

there is more to breeding better dogs than just best to best or even line breeding...

How many generations of finder holders have you bred? just wondering if your dogs are breeding true to the way you prefer to hunt...

Having access to breeders who breed the same type is definitely a plus...

[parker49]

because if you gonna tought about how to breed dogs then  show what  you've done ...if you can't its just talk ... I can show over  a 100 litter's of dogs from these dogs of mine ...and  show after 25 years  I have  bred  them perty true  to type ... as  I bred  through the years watching them my breedings changed I learned about the dogs ....you don't get that  talking about what  you think ..... your  thought process seems to be ahead  of your breedings ......you seem absolutely sure of the outcome ....doesn't happen that way ....  if you haven't figured out looks  in a line  is important  then you just ain't there yet ....

[parker49]

this thought tickled me about someone  I used  to know ... if he wanted to get into cutt'n horses  he would  just research old  breeder's interview them  same with dogs or anything he  got into and  he was sharp he'd make  you think  he  was an authority on the subject .......but he couldn't do it himself...all he  could do was talk about  it .... 

[HIGHWATER KENNELS]

this thought tickled me about someone  I used  to know ... if he wanted to get into cutt'n horses  he would  just research old  breeder's interview them  same with dogs or anything he  got into and  he was sharp he'd make  you think  he  was an authority on the subject .......but he couldn't do it himself...all he  could do was talk about  it .... 

Yeah u right,,, a lot of people these days got the talkin part figured out... hehehe

[Black Streak]

because if you gonna tought about how to breed dogs then  show what  you've done ...if you can't its just talk ... I can show over  a 100 litter's of dogs from these dogs of mine ...and  show after 25 years  I have  bred  them perty true  to type ... as  I bred  through the years watching them my breedings changed I learned about the dogs ....you don't get that  talking about what  you think ..... your  thought process seems to be ahead  of your breedings ......you seem absolutely sure of the outcome ....doesn't happen that way ....  if you haven't figured out looks  in a line  is important  then you just ain't there yet ....

Parker in 25 years of breeding you line, you started with curs and ended with curs.     Your curs perform no better or do not better job than most everyone's best dog on here.   You describe your breeding of them the way a show breeder would there dogs, looks.  Probably because  from the dogs you started with, looks was about all you could change.   I mean what did you really change?  Did you turn a close range dog into a long range dog.   Did you turn a gritty dog in to a loose dog?      25 years worth of breeding dogs and the main thing you say about them is they look alike lol.      I'm proud for you and your pretty dogs, maybe you can get them registered and start showing them in the kennel clubs.
         You tout your 25 years worth of breeding as though it's some kinda thing you have to do to have good consistent dogs and have made out like I don't know what  I'm talking about cause I don't have 25 years of experience.  Yet you say you changed where you wanted to go with your dogs half way through and started changing what you was breeding for.       Sounds like to me you didn't listen and found out the hard way after so many years of breeding.                  
           Most of the people on this forum find that what dogs like mine do are in conflict with what they have been said can't be done or done long.      How you accomplish what these dogs do is by what you put into them.    People would see me describe what my dogs do and try to breed for it.   Most would breed grey to bull and then be convinced I was full of crap cause there fast cd can't do the things the kinda I run do or they all get killed.      There is lots of interest in the kinda dogs I run from people of this forum.  I visit with guys that are interested knowing more and what makes this possible.  I have guys reach out to me and talk about what they want to breed together to get dogs that can either do crop work or finder holder work.        Yeah they want a fast cd, I get that from the beginning as this is main premise for meeting me.    I ask them what do you really want to do with these dogs?    Hunt crops or finder holder work or just run an rcd with there pack of bay dogs to stop runners.       If it's the later I tell them I can't really help them because I believe this just gets rcd injured and eventually killed.   If it's finder holder work, we discuss finder holders, what their job is, there mentality, how to hunt them etc but you are not gonna have finder holders without really really knowing what you need and what breeds of dogs to breed from to get this.      Crop dogs isn't a tuff to breed for and can be more easily had on the first cross but again the quality of dog and your happiness and confedence in them depend on what you crossed to get this type of dog.        The people that reach out and contact me to discuss things before they do it are often glad they did because 1, I urged them to use something a bit different to get what thy want, 2 I tell them how to use the parent stock in the mean time and what to expect from a dog such as a stag, what to look for in a stag etc, 3 how to develop the future dogs, 4 how to hunt them and develop there own style, 5 dispelling the myths which are so ingrained in some people and wide spread.   I'll discuss why certain breeds are bad to cross to  and why they are the first that we'll intended people go for.                   Listening to wisdom and experience sure speeds up the process and the learning curve.        I listened to my mentors.  I got dogs from the first.  I had and used the kind of dogs I wanted before ever breeding for them.    I already hunted the way I do now before breeding a dog.     I consult with my mentors about their wisdom on various breeds and how the blood influences the dogs hunting style, holding style, physical abilities, and manners.       The people I consider mentors have years upon years of experience and there own wisdom but they too have there own people that they discuss things with in Australia who also make a living with these types of dogs and have crossed dogs for years and years and know what influences what.
        I didn't come by my knowledge from breeding dogs all my life.  I knew how I wanted to pig hunt and my intuition and research put me on the right track with the breeds of dogs to use to get what I wanted.   During my research before ever starting, I met my mentors I have today which drastically shorted my learning curve.     I have no need to breed my own dogs, I am part of something much bigger than myself that has been in place for many many years.     The wisdom I share with people here did not just come from my yard or from a friends, it has come from Australia, been proven here by breeding up the dogs we have access to here and now by integrating the Australian blood with our own.            I have seen everything which I share.  If not on my yard, on my mentors yards.   Before developing these types of dogs I run, time was spent in Australia developing first hand experience on the inside and outside of these dogs, hunting abilities and style, catching and holding ability and style, what breeds influence what, running the different cross bred dogs together to see the differences etc.  Then bring all that back to the states and applying it.    And still to this day continuing the relationship with the Aussie guys.      
       This is how I know so much.  This is how I'm no fool when it comes to breeding for what I want.   This is why I can recommend what dogs to cross for people looking for a very usable F1 cross.        
   I'm into catching pigs, not chasing them.  I don't want a yard full of dogs.    I wanted 1 out type dogs.   I wanted what most on this forum say can't be done.        I did my homework before I changed dogs.       There are people on this forum interested in the type of dogs I use.   There are people interested in not making the same mistakes you did Parker and breeding for something that didn't suit them in the beginning.  There are people here that want to catch pigs like me instead of run them like you.     There are people here that want 3 dogs on there yard instead of 30.     You know little about the type and style of dogs I run but act as if your an expert because you breed some curs that look alike lol.            

[parker49]

wwwellllllllll  whooow  to much for  a  stupid like me to digest  ......the person I talked about in my other  post could also talk about what someone else done all day ...... and he could make  it sound  like he  knew what he was talking about .......its all good  everyone  has  there own idea's and opinions ...... I just like talking dogs ...... I get bored ....

[Curcross1987]

Black steak what would it cost to get you to come to Arkansas I will take you to a place that will cut you a big slice of humble pie

[Black Streak]

Holding style -   when a dog is holding longer for a time period measured in minutes, not seconds holding style them becomes an issue of importance to some guys, me for one.        If they chew the ears off a pig, there will not be any handle bars for them to continue to hold with.    Some people seem associate shredded and mangled pigs with hardness in there dogs.  I guess the case could be made argued but it really just gives the impression the dogs are not holding but rather fighting and shaking and provoking further fighting and unrest from a pig till they have no ears left.          This can be the result of more than 2 dogs on a pig or can be just the nature of the dogs you are using.        If there are no bay dogs bitting or barking or exciting the boar and keeping it stirred up, this will all work the catch dogs and pig to settle down and just hold and relax a little while doing so if the catch dogs are of this type nature.   This is not breed specific, I've seen all types of cd's even pits settle and just calmly walk in circles with a big boar they are holding.  Some dogs like the stag  are bred not for holding but ripping and shredding but hold pigs cleanly when you don't have more than 2 on the ground at once.
       What you see when you catch pigs with just a couple cd's and nothing else  (be it cur cd's or bulls, or rcd's) is a furious battle in the first few seconds that quickly deesculates and eventually turns into dog and pig seemingly walking around calmly.   A screaming pig usually doesn't settle eventhough it won't fight hard after initial hook up.         I've had people tell me they thought I was full of crap saying big boars and cd's will often be calmly and silently walking around together in a very relaxed manner when caught for a while.  I get a confession saying something like dogs had pigs bayed a 1400 yards out.   We were headed to bay and seen a big boar walking in front of us.  All we had was 2 catch dogs with us.  We decided to cut the catch dogs to the boar and get him and then go on to the bay.    Then there worst fears come true.  The boar outrun our cd's and took them 1000 yards off, crossed a creek we couldn't get across etc.         They spend a whole looking at the Garmin trying to figure out how to get to the two catch dogs.  They have shown treed for a while.  They know they are caught and what they are caught on and they are panicked cause they can't get there.   After much time getting finally they find a place to cross.  Dogs haven't moved.  Reality is setting in and they are preparing for what they gonna find when they get to the dogs.  They get close, kill the ranger and hear nothing and dogs are not coming to them.  Still haven't moved really.   Walk to the collars and find in their light 2 catch dogs calmly walking around with 1 big boar.  Nothing injured and boar isn't shredded.   Then have them tell me about their hunt and what transpired and have them tell me they thought I was full of crap till they seen that.            
        With the new sense of confedence  with the catch dogs and them thinking maybe there was something to what I say, now they get the feeling they can use these dogs like this again.   So one hot summer night one of the guys is gonna do some request work in an upscale neighborhood in town by immulating my style of hunting and was gonna use just catch dogs so as not to make a big distribution in the neighborhood.     The pigs are located in a backyard and see the hunters first and start heading down the cliff and into the brush.   Some apprehensive conversations takes and one of the dogs is released well the other guy releases his and in the direction the pigs were last seen the dogs ran and disappear.  Close to a mile later dogs stop, show treed etc.    How do we get there set in again.    Decision was made to take this road to that road and maybe they will be close to the catch.      I think I was told 500 or 600 yards was about the closest they could get to these dogs.   The dogs start moving a little on the Garmin but still won't leave that area.    They walk to the dogs and to the spot they were treed for so long and nothing.    No piglet no nothing.  One of the dogs is acting funny.   On the way back to the truck the dog stops walking and won't move.  Then it's entire body contracts and locks up.        We'll I knew the dog and knew the condition in which it lived.    Kept very well but in a small 10 x 15 type space.  No exercise except on the occasion it gets to run 50 yards to a bay, etc etc.            In this guy's story, before he ever got to the dog locking up I knew what was about to happen and where this story was about to go.     He didn't recognize what was wrong with the dog when he first got to it, he didn't take water with him to the dog etc etc.    Story ended up that they carried the dog the rest of the way out, set in the guys barn for a couple days and got no better and then he took it to the vet.    (I find all this out after the dog is released from the vet by the way)    what's the vet do for the dog?  Exactly what I told him was wrong with the dog when he got half way through his story.   Vet rehydrate he dog and puts a warming blanket on the dog to bring it's temperature back up to normal.    
    The unfit dog was allowed to over exert itself, no we dealing with a build of lactic acid in the body and no water to rehydrate the dog and cool it down upon arrival to the dog,   time was spent getting dog out and to the truck in which time the dogs body locked up.  This adds enormous mystery for the two guys to what's going on with this dog.   At this point I'm told the dog just ran down a pig the day before and did great.    As the mystery deepens to them, it becomes more and more certain to me what caused this.    Dog lived to catch again but none of this should have or would have happened if he would have fully listened to me.   This half azzing things about killed his dog and ruined his confedence hunting like this again.
    Why did this happen and exactly what happened.  Once it happens, how do you midagate it.    What do you do going forward?         The guy was told all of this prior to this ever happening.      He thought what I do with my dogs was unnecessary and me just being weird.  I told him why I do what I do.  Which to which I would explain of him what I was avoiding you doing this.   When it happened to him, it wasn't well I didn't prepare my dogs for such hunting or arm myself with the knowledge in how to hunt dogs like this and hunt this style, he  didn't have actually have the right dog for the job either, just kinda making do with a boarder lined dogs ability to do that kinda work.
        So to answere the question as to how, why, and then what.           Initial cause was lack of fitness and conditioning of the dog to perform such work.  It stayed in a small kennel all the time with the exception of being snapped to the back of a ranger and then being allowed to run 50 yards to a bay every now and then.          
   2, the day before he uses the cd to run down a pig not mentioned in this story.   Now we have a build up of lactic acid in the muscles that has not been allowed to flush itself out yet before the next hunt.     Next hunt we have a race which the dog was not fast enough for, was turned loose way to late with to much ground to cover on already running pigs that had reached cover.   Not so much cover a good rcd couldn't have  run a pig down quickly and caught but enough to slow one a little.          So now we have just allowed a dog to run a mile with already high levels of lactic acid build up in the body.     Further complicating things was the dog was brought no water.    Then we have a failure to realize the shape the dog is in and why and can't at least get some fluids in the dog before it locks up.    After the dog is back home, the reason for the dogs condition is still not known to the owner who allows the dogs condition to further decline getting fluids in the dog to rehydrate it and to flush out the substantial over load of lactic acid.          
          Root cause for this dogs sad story = lack of understanding about they type of dog he has and it's requirments to perform certain tasks.          I wouldn't be the least bit scared of using this dog for myself but got to get the dog fit enough to perform the work multiple times a day for a few times a week.
     Oh the other dog was fine but the guy thought he had a finder holder dog and was no where near such a dog
      

[hyan]

I am lost on this because I have hunted dogs like black streak In thick stuff that most say cant bd done like sugar cane also last time I checked hawaii had the tallest volcano in the world and it has jungles so if my dogs can stop and hold pigs in woods that are up and down mountains gulchs that are 300 ft and can run down pigs in our pastures how is it that it can't be done here? I had a cat that was in ported from tx was a great dog I breed him to my grayhound/ wippet/shepherd had a great noes but couldn't keep up with my bitch in the open or woods and we ran chest plates on my bitch nothing on the cat and he still couldn't keep up this is the kinda stuff we hunted on the top part of our ranch it can be done and if you use the same dogs for 50 years or 100 years and nothing else how would you know that somthing else don't work better? O n I haven't bin breeding dogs that long I am only 24 but my dad stop using bay dogs in 2000 and started our long legged full catch dogs cus my uncle was running this type of dog n catching more 12 years old now this was one of the first pups out of our first breeding haole girl

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[Black Streak]

Black steak what would it cost to get you to come to Arkansas I will take you to a place that will cut you a big slice of humble pie

It would probably cost me about the same it would for you to come to me so I can put you and your dog in the open where you can see what really takes place and you can eat your own pie.   You can speculate all day long about what you can't see, but when you can see, there is no need to speculate.   If they can't get it done in the open, they are even worse in the brush.  It's just the pig mentality that changes once it gets to cover that allows the dogs to then shine.            You think a dog that can't out run a pig in the open and catch it, can do it in the brush if the pig didn't stop and face the dog in the brush?   No, if the dog  can't out run a pig in the open or it can't catch it in the open, it dang sure can't out run it in the brush which means it can't catch it.    There is a reason why it happens though and it's not because the dog got faster or harder in the brush

[Black Streak]

Kai they say these things because they no no different or because they are scared to accept it which would mean everything they have believed or said would then be a lie. 

[hyan]

Kai they say these things because they no no different or because they are scared to accept it which would mean everything they have believed or said would then be a lie. 

Cheeeheee

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[hyan]

I'm 45 and have been working cattle and hogs with Florida bred cur dogs since I was 9. Stock bred, front end dogs that are rough enough to attempt to stop any cattle or hogs that would run from them. Had some that would stay hung and some that would come off and bay after the stop. Situation dictated which dogs or dog I would use. There are some good stock bred cur dogs that will stop and keep a hog bayed without ever putting teeth on it, but in my experience, rank stock will usually run "over" a dog or set of dogs that will not hang on them. With this being said, some stock seem to just be unstoppable until they get wore down. I prefer all my curs to be hard catch dogs when needed. Being able to control their catch is priceless

How does a dog stop a pig running without putting teeth on it?

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[hyan]

I'm 45 and have been working cattle and hogs with Florida bred cur dogs since I was 9. Stock bred, front end dogs that are rough enough to attempt to stop any cattle or hogs that would run from them. Had some that would stay hung and some that would come off and bay after the stop. Situation dictated which dogs or dog I would use. There are some good stock bred cur dogs that will stop and keep a hog bayed without ever putting teeth on it, but in my experience, rank stock will usually run "over" a dog or set of dogs that will not hang on them. With this being said, some stock seem to just be unstoppable until they get wore down. I prefer all my curs to be hard catch dogs when needed. Being able to control their catch is priceless

Also how do you control a dog from catching n not catching that sounds bad ass

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[parker49]

hyan for what streak hunts and how he likes to hunt his  dogs is  just the ticket  for  HIM ......I ain't seen nobody tell him he needs to change what he  does ....... and  I know his dogs ant work here unless behind  one of our  woods dogs ....  now  far  as  Hawaii never been there and I'm just to fat to climb mountains or big hills .......fella use to call me wanting me to send him dogs ....but man its a pain to send a dog there  or was  then ....... now I don't know but he told me most of the dogs there was shat bred ...he said they just didn't have the hunt the dogs from the  main land  does ..... he said the country is so ruff  you would loose dogs like  we  hunt because they would track pigs so far ....but he said he wanted to cross some with what they had  to give  theres  more  hunt .....now I don't know that's what the man said  you know  more  than me ......