Alice Texas and a leopard cur question

[mike rogers]

Ok I'm still digging around on leopard history.  I've had several good leads over the years about dogs across the state. One town in particular has come up in several conversations about an old style leopard cur with lots of hair that and had all kinds of natural ability and that's the town of Alice Tx.  So i'm looking for any contact info of folks that still may be raising a type of leopard/cat cur that would be hairy like a farm shepherd, aprox 60 to 80 lbs, merle  with tan/ red trim or black and tan in color. These dogs would have been a multiple use dog. From guarding and herding to hunting.  I would like to find some of these leopards. I'm hoping to find someone who has had their line for years and years.

any info will help. You can text me,  private message me or shoot me an email.

thanks

mike 

254-631-9883     mike.rogers1967@yahoo.com

[gary roberson]

A. E. Outlaw, my Great Uncle lived at Moore, TX and had 10-15 lep/cat dogs that he used for working and catching wild cattle.  I am not sure of the gentleman at Alice of who you speak but do remember  a few of Mr. Outlaws dogs that had the longer, rougher hair coats.  I can't remember where the dogs came from, but I am guessing somewhere in South Texas as the only dogs I remember purchasing from anywhere else came from Mississippi.  This would have been from the late '50s up through the '70s.
Mr. Outlaw was known to have the best cow dogs for catching wild cattle of anyone in that country.  They were really gritty and had pretty good noses as I can remember going with Uncle Everett (A. E.) and getting paid by the head for penning wild cattle.  We would ride into a big pasture on the downwind side and the dogs would scatter trying to pick up the trail or wind the cattle.  Many times, we would start them at a stock tank and the dogs would trail up and bay the brahman crosses that were about as wild as the deer.  Once they got the cattle stopped and bayed up, we would move in and drive them to corrals or rope them if we could get a trailer fairly close.  Brush was extremely thick so most times, tried to push to pens. 
One of his sons, Don Outlaw tried to keep these dogs but he is up in age and no longer cowboying.  I doubt that there are any of them left.
Adios,
Gary

[mike rogers]

Thank you Mr Roberson. On more than one occasion I have heard of some of the foundation stock of the McDuffie leopard curs coming from this area. One of the names popped up was Kirkpatrick or Kilpatrick and Cowboy Williams. This would have been in the early 60's.  Would Mr. Don Outlaw  have any contact info on folks that still may have some of the old Outlaw blood? Again these would have , in some cases, been as hairy as shepherds.

Thanks again for the reply.

Mike

[gary roberson]

I doubt that he would have any of the contact information as he has not had any dogs for many years.  There is a fellow by the name of John Dunn who was raised in a ranching family in Alice.  I don't have his phone number but I will see if I can get it from another buddy.  John is in his mid 50's and I am sure he will know the gentleman if he was a rancher.  I think that there are some Kirkpatricks that ranch in that area but I can't remember exactly where, I think in the Alice to Freer area.
You may be able to find John on the internet.  Good luck.
Adios,
Gary

[mike rogers]

thank you sir

mike

[Briar]

Since you know some about Leopards, does this look like the type of dog you're talking about ? This is a buddies dog, just wandered up on his ranch one day and works his cattle good. He was thinking a catahoula mutt but I wondered if it might be some older leopard blood. He is in Grayson county near Decatur.
She has got a litter of half Walker pups right now.
I can get better pics of her too.

[mike rogers]

Briar  as far as looks only, I'm looking for a leopard spotted cur with 2 to 4" hair.  With 3 to 4" floppy cur ears and a nice eye stop. She's a nice looking spotted dog, but not enough hair for me. She could be. I'd like to know if she trees, open on track and has free hanging floppy ears

Cats and old leopards do look a like in a lot of ways. Leopards seem to have more hair, more tree than cats and open on track. Most leopards now a days look real real  houndy and are getting slicker and slicker coated, big ears and have a  hound style of running tracks. Thats why I'm looking in the direction of Alice Texas.  4 dogs came from down in that area.  They became the foundation of the ALCBA. These dogs would have had thick double coated hair like a shepherd would have, but leopard spotted. Later on McDuffie wrote that he thought the leopards descended from the old style farm shepherd. Stodghill ran the ARF and was the first to register Catahoulas in the US.   Stodgehill also had advertised and sold both old style english shepherds and Old style scotch collies (also known to some as old time farm shepherds) in the 1940's.  McDuffie picked 30 or so dogs from Mr Stodghill in the early 60's. Now he said that they where all culls, but I doubt that.  Then came back again and picked up more dogs. Cowboy Williams was his contact back then. The sweet talk strain that Fred French ran and raised  was a leopard that was registered as ALC  in the ALCBA by McDuffie and also as a Cat with the ARF with Stodghill. The story I've heard is McDuffie asked if Stodghill would register his leopards and Stodghill said yes, but they would be registered as Catahoulas. Funny that the leopard cur/hound has almost the same standard and history as the cats do. I believe McDuffie took what he learned from Stodghill and Started the ALC association. You got to remember to that dogs where added through out the years. A lot of these were registered regardless of ancestry and more about what McDuffie and other owners of the Registry thought represented a leopard and leopard traits....   

Man I could go on and on.  I love looking into these old curs.

thanks

mike

[bigo]

The four dogs McDuffie got In Texas that were long haired, came from Cowboy Williams and were July/Cat crosses. I read the first story he wrote about those dogs in Full Cry in the early 70's. He said he saw these yearling pups running a Jackrabbit in an ice storm and bought them. Several years later he changed his story and said they came off a ranch in south Texas from a Mexican that brought them from Mexico, where they hunted big game with them. Rex Bowers can confirm the first story.

[mike rogers]

yep, but there is more to the story. I learned a few more dogs came from the Alice area. I too had talked to Rex. He sent me copies and copies of research  he had done about the leopards, plotts, julys and Birdsongs over the years. Even the hand written letter from Cowboy Williams about the leopard dogs that Mcduffie had.  Rex at the time was unaware of the Sunflower Hound Kennel in Aledo Tx ran by Mr Pool back in the 1890's (1890 was the first ad I found in a news paper). They sold red bones-irish slashers crosses and birdsong strains and also advertised fox hounds. Rex thinks the july and Birdsongs have a heavy influence on the leopards since you can find leopard spotted July's and Birdsongs.  Maybe thats why he bred Jull's in to his stuff. I know it made a sure enough go getter and dang good dogs.  Rex saw these dogs as a young man and can confirm that they produced "like" litters. Another words they produced litters that were consistent in looks and traits. Crosses will usually produce pups that resembles looks of one or the other parent and yes a blend of both too, but the second and third generation will throw a few pups that look like one or the other grandparents. Rex stated these dogs produced consistent like litters. Rex is only one of the guys that told me about Alice Tx. Now there has been a couple others. Like all good stories and legends of dogs these leopards that McDuffie had resurrected from almost extinction it  needed a story.  I think thats why the mexico story about rabbits came about.... He just couldn't say "well I bought these catahoulas from texas..."  LOL

I have no doubt that the old leopard dog is still out there, but it is of catahoula origin or maybe older like the Pastor Leones that the spanards brought over in the 1400's. (they are leopard spotted too).  Now what was all mixed with it?? Who knows for sure. I guess why we call them curs, but maybe  Mr Outlaw or another person down in that area had something that McDuffie built his leopards curs from.   I still think Stodghill had a lot to do with it.

Oh dont forget about the A.W. Carter strain pf leopards that McDuffie and couple others brought in. Mr Carter moved up from florida with his leopard spotted cow dogs used for catching cracker cows. I've got a pretty good article about him in a CO-OP mag that talks about them.  McDuffie and them got them because some of them would tree game.

thanks

mike

[gary roberson]

The dogs that we had back in the 60's and 70's for working cattle were crossed with Cat, Leopard and Lacy.  We purchased several Lacy dogs from an older gentleman near Willow Springs, I think that is in Llano County.  We did not worry about pedigrees, simply bred the best to the best and hoped for the best.  Over time, most of the dogs were steel blue in color with tan markings and I am sure that came from the Lacy influence.  The Lacy dogs of that day and time were 50-60 pound dogs with slick hair coats.  We were not fans of the chalk or blue eyed dogs as our better dogs.  I can only remember one dog that had a blue eye that I would consider a really great dog.  Ironically, he had somewhat of a bawl mouth which I really liked as he did not seem to spook cattle quite as bad as the "yappy" mouthed dogs.  I believe that he must have had a little hound in him back somewhere because he was also one of the best at trailing up wild cattle.
Adios,
Gary

[liefalwepon]

I really enjoy hearing all this history, thanks for sharing!


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[bigo]

 Every cur dog that is Texas bred for many generations has Fox hound in them. I was told it was to put more stamina in there stock dogs. I have seen heavy haired dogs in spotted and yellow lines. Every now and then, I get some heavy haired dogs out of mine.
   Where I grew up, a spotted dog was a Leopard dog, a blue dog from central Texas was a Lacy Leopard and other colors were cur dogs. Tom Stodghill was the first person I ever heard call the spotted dogs Catahoula and it was Catahoula Leopard. I believe they are all color fazes of the same dogs,stock dogs. There foremost purpose was to gather stock off the open range.

[mike rogers]

thanks guys for the info. I think your right on Bigo. A leopard was a leopard, a lacy was a lacy and so on.  I found an article from I think it was from the mid to late 1870's that referred to them as Catahoulas.  Several articles that just called them leopard curs. They also had names like Calico curs and painted cur.

thanks again Mr Roberson.  if y'all think of anymore names of folks that may have some old style or strains of cow dog or hog dog then please let me know.

[Reuben]

Mike, this won't be of much help if any...back in the early 1970's I rode with a friend of mine to go look at some farm equipment at some ranch somewhere around Karnes City, Texas or Kennedy, TX area...when we arrived the old cowboy comes out to greet us along with 2 dogs that looked somewhat like Australian Shepherds but looking closer I saw they were a different breed or strain of dogs...these dogs were big and sturdy...the forelegs were thick and muscular...the head on the female was of good size...but the male had a big head on him...very good looking dogs, well built and fairly long coated except for the heads and legs...I asked the man what they were and he said farm dogs or farm shepherds...I forgot the exact area and how to get there but I can see the dogs plainly in my minds eye...

I about read most of J. Richard McDuffie's writings as well and he was very knowledgeable with breeding strategies and dogs in general...I think his Nimrod dog had some of that shepherd look to him but his coat not quite as long...

It seems that as soon as the Leopard cur dropped the cur and added the Hound word instead is when so many leopard curs started to look more like they have been crossed with bluetick hound...

[mike rogers]

See I kinda think the same thing on the Nimrod and the early leopards Reuben. Some of the old farm sheps have big broad heads with floppy ears.  More cur head than a shepherd/collie head a lot like the early leopards did. Or maybe the leopards looked like them... 

[wine6978]

I live down here in Alice. Got some hog dogs. I haven't seen any dogs like your talking about but that doesn't mean anything. We worked the cows for one of mr dunns neighbors last week. I'll ask around to some of the older guys today about the Kirkpatrick fellow you talk about today at the sale barn. I'll let you know what I find out.


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[mike rogers]

I live down here in Alice. Got some hog dogs. I haven't seen any dogs like your talking about but that doesn't mean anything. We worked the cows for one of mr dunns neighbors last week. I'll ask around to some of the older guys today about the Kirkpatrick fellow you talk about today at the sale barn. I'll let you know what I find out.


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thank you sir.

Mike

[TheRednose]

Hey Mike hows it going. When I read this thread a week or so ago it really made me think. I read all the different responses and it really got me interested. I do not mean to be disrespectful or demean any person who commented on this, it is not my intention at all. But I would like to share my thoughts and what I found.

So I saw the comment about Nimrod being a july/cat cross, and the more I thought about it the more it just did not make sense to me. The one thing most leopard cur guys know is how they are really natural tree dogs. I mean most real leopard curs have a lot of tree power, so much so that they have been snuck into other breeds to add it. Now whats one thing that both July's and Cats don't have on average.... Tree power, I know some will tree but on average they are not good tree dogs. Ones a running hound and ones a stock dog. And before anybody beats me up on that, I know one will from time to time but I am talking in generalizations. So these thoughts made me reach out to a couple of different men that knew Richard McDuffie really well and both hunted with him quite regularly and owned tons of dogs directly from him. They both told me the same exact story, and though these people know each other they live a few thousand miles away from each other and have no idea I asked the other one this question.

You prob know all of this already but they said he did go to see Cowboy Williams but Cowboy didn't have anything for sale but did take him and another Mexican fellow which they were using to translate down south to look at some dogs. That is when the story about him seeing those pups running to catch comes in. I believe this story not only because it comes directly from the horses mouth but also because it just makes the most sense to me. But hey who really knows.

I would love to see what else you find out, if you don't mind sharing.

[Reuben]

Rednose...yes you nailed it...they are different style dogs like night and day...

[bigo]

 Most of the cat hunters in Texas use running hounds and crosses to tree Bobcats. Lionandboar hunter uses foxhound and crosses to tree  Bobcats and Mountain Lion. Some of the hunters on here have gotten Julys from him. Barlow bought a July gyp from a man on a hunt in Main a few years ago that was a good bear dog. All the treeing hounds in America are developed from Foxhounds.