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Black Streak
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« on: September 21, 2016, 10:37:09 pm » |
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On the previous thread I got asked a question about bottom on my type dogs. I've been asked that also by others off line who have questions about these types of dogs. Fair question I guess, but one that always struck me a little odd. Bottom as I know it from this forum pertains to a dogs willingness to bay a pig till the cd's catch. It's said that a dog that will stay with a pig for miles and miles or hours, has good bottom, or a lot of it. I respect this in bay dogs but just can't see its relevance to my type of dogs.
How do you measure a cd's bottom I ask myself. How long it can hold for? nah surely not I think. The closest I can come to seeing bottom as I know it from bay dogs is in slower catch dogs as in the pit I used to run. She wasn't fast enough to run down many pigs, but would catch them once they got to the brush if a pig stopped and turned to face it's pursuer in the brush. As long as she could kinda keep up with them, she wouldn't stop. These times were rare but did happen. I'd hunt her with a young dog such as a young finder holder that was much faster than my pit. The idea was to back the young inexperienced finder holder up with a good seasoned cd. If the pit went for its own pig I'd have one catch here and another waaaaay over there in the brush somewhere. By the time you got there you would have to send a second dog to the catch or the exhausted dog couldn't hold the pig once it seen you arrive on scene.
I guess what I'm trying to say is a big reason I have the types of dogs I run now is to eliminate the need to even worry about bottom. The pigs are either caught where they are found or run down in short order. I don't use a slower cd anymore that can't quickly run one down although I can incorporate them into a team. If a pig gets away by flicking a dog in thick cover or manages to beat a dog to thick cover and the pig doesn't turn to face it's pursuer like most once it gets this stuff it just depends on the dog as to how much effort it then puts into trying to relocate the pig and resume the pursuit. My stags will give it up after several minutes. I've sat and waited a good while on my finder holders to give it up because I couldn't call them back before I got a handle on them. I can't remember a time that I couldn't call them back that they didn't eventually make good on the pig or at least a pig in the brush where they initially got beat though. If they think the pig is not gone, but just hiding, they gonna be there for a while. I kinda addressed bottom from a different angle in my dogs. Putting a handle on them has given me the ability to call dogs back most of the time and the speed of the cd's tends to make it even harder for me to come up with a good way to measure bottom in my dogs. I've canceled it out I guess you could say.
Hope this helped explain your question about the bottom my dogs may or may not possess Art.
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Scott
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« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2016, 08:13:25 am » |
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There is a such thing as "bottom" in bulldogs...and it's not what you described above in your pit example.
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parker49
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« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2016, 10:05:27 am » |
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streak to really be effective why wouldn't you use your dogs for what they are good for but if no hogs in the fields to see ....man we can just ride around the edge and wind hogs off the buggy in the brush on the edge of the field ...... seems like you would want both styles ......you bound to pass piles of pigs ......
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ArtHenrey
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« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2016, 05:09:33 pm » |
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Yes, I see. If I'm getting this right. If the hog isn't caught out in the open. Does beat the dogs into the brush. Your stags will go in for a little while and then come out.
Finder holders will also go in and search but for a little longer. Before coming back. I guess that's where I asked bottom.. To me bottom begins after the hog knows the dog is in behind. And the distance it is willing to go to either catch or come bayed.
I've kinda got and idea of your hunting. Not saying bad. But you and I are on completely different pages. What works for you mite work for your buddy, but what works for me and my buddy wouldn't for you. I've began to see that there's no comparison here, and really no point to argue. Do I think your dogs mite work in my area. I don't, BUT that's ok. Your hunts usually end where mine start. Not saying it's a bad thing. Or mine is better than yours.
Thanks
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Arturo Villarreal -V
Elgin, tx
512-815-8569
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TheRednose
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« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2016, 05:14:42 pm » |
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There is a such thing as "bottom" in bulldogs...and it's not what you described above in your pit example.
Scott I would like to hear what it is, if its not how long they will hold, is it like gameness? |
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hyan
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« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2016, 05:29:38 pm » |
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Yes, I see. If I'm getting this right. If the hog isn't caught out in the open. Does beat the dogs into the brush. Your stags will go in for a little while and then come out.
Finder holders will also go in and search but for a little longer. Before coming back. I guess that's where I asked bottom.. To me bottom begins after the hog knows the dog is in behind. And the distance it is willing to go to either catch or come bayed.
I've kinda got and idea of your hunting. Not saying bad. But you and I are on completely different pages. What works for you mite work for your buddy, but what works for me and my buddy wouldn't for you. I've began to see that there's no comparison here, and really no point to argue. Do I think your dogs mite work in my area. I don't, BUT that's ok. Your hunts usually end where mine start. Not saying it's a bad thing. Or mine is better than yours.
Thanks
I have seen finder holders stop pigs 1600 yards in the brush off the truck n still hunt all day a finder holder with a good nose will find pigs in the brush mountain swamp there dogs that can do most what other dogs do it just depends on how u hunt them if your take them in brush %100 of the time they will go out n find pigs if you hunt fields and they don't stop them in the open they will stay on the pig till the grab it or till the lose the it like any other dog at least that's my take on it n my experience I believe my dogs could do any thing a cur can(besides bay) just with more top end MUCH ALOHA Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk |
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MAUKA 2 MAKAI
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parker49
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« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2016, 06:42:40 pm » |
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hey it ain't that simple .... us woods hunters take young dogs and really hunt them the style to make woods or brush dogs and it takes a few years to get them trained out ... now come on there would have to be very few dogs not hunted like we hunt that make sure nuff brush dogs ....... this dog can do anything your dogs do and more just don't wash ..... I can't compete running down hogs across a pasture with those dogs they built for it ......but when you come in the brush that's my game .......
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ArtHenrey
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« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2016, 07:10:58 pm » |
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Hyan I referring strictly to what deans dog as to what he wrote about them. If I remember correctly you said y'all brought catahoula into yalls line of dogs. I believe that's where the difference of your and deans dogs start.. I'm not sure, you say catahoula that's what the plan was for a little better nose..
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Arturo Villarreal -V
Elgin, tx
512-815-8569
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Judge peel
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« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2016, 07:33:50 pm » |
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For me the dog should bay or catch as fast as it can first if it's not successful first second or 3rd try and so on it should keep trying. Now that comes with style you hunt and size of your property and restrictions of your dogs and how you want the dog to hunt. I judge bottom from the first action of baying or trying to catch that's where I feel bottom is noted. Prior to that is range and desire to hunt. I like a super rough catchy dog to have much less bottom then say a loose dog you all know the reason. Any one can say this or that but deep down every one would like to have a dog that would stick to one till the end of time. But in most cases it's not practical. If a dog catches as soon as it gets to the hog ain't much need for bottom it will cause more problems then help. And a loose dog with no bottom is on the other side will up set u when the dog comes back empty handed. Bottom is in the eye of the dog owner to me
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hyan
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« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2016, 07:49:28 pm » |
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Hyan I referring strictly to what deans dog as to what he wrote about them. If I remember correctly you said y'all brought catahoula into yalls line of dogs. I believe that's where the difference of your and deans dogs start.. I'm not sure, you say catahoula that's what the plan was for a little better nose..
Yea it might have it was ended up being only a little u think most of the nose in our dogs came from the shepherd I am not sure but I know the cat did help the main reason I wanted to put cat in was because he was a leopard n all his pups came out that way but our dogs also were the same size as black streak Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk |
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MAUKA 2 MAKAI
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hyan
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« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2016, 07:53:41 pm » |
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hey it ain't that simple .... us woods hunters take young dogs and really hunt them the style to make woods or brush dogs and it takes a few years to get them trained out ... now come on there would have to be very few dogs not hunted like we hunt that make sure nuff brush dogs ....... this dog can do anything your dogs do and more just don't wash ..... I can't compete running down hogs across a pasture with those dogs they built for it ......but when you come in the brush that's my game .......
I showed you what we hunt n you can't say that it ain't woods or brush our dogs were let's say retired around 1 if they were not turning on so for us by the time they were 2 they had to be finding and catching on there own "one off" if not then it's retirement for that one and by the time there 3 they are main dogs and ready to train the next set of pups Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk |
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MAUKA 2 MAKAI
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hyan
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« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2016, 07:55:02 pm » |
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If this is only about blacks dogs then I won't say anything further MUCH ALOHA
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MAUKA 2 MAKAI
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parker49
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« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2016, 12:04:38 am » |
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I don't know if you can compare catching rank boars here to the islands ........ from what I have seen it is some ruff up and down country ....but the size and strength of the boars is way different ...... 250 pound rank male on good feed is hard to handle ....the male we caught about a week ago had 3 curdogs on him he knocked one bulldog clean out and beat my gyp off on a tree .......when we cut him his seeds was like ground meat them curdogs was working on him and he still put it on our catchdogs from time we turned catchdogs loose we had him tied in about 5 too 6 minutes ........I just believe ya'll would have been gathering some collars on a rank boar like him caught way out ......
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hyan
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« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2016, 06:12:23 am » |
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I don't know if you can compare catching rank boars here to the islands ........ from what I have seen it is some ruff up and down country ....but the size and strength of the boars is way different ...... 250 pound rank male on good feed is hard to handle ....the male we caught about a week ago had 3 curdogs on him he knocked one bulldog clean out and beat my gyp off on a tree .......when we cut him his seeds was like ground meat them curdogs was working on him and he still put it on our catchdogs from time we turned catchdogs loose we had him tied in about 5 too 6 minutes ........I just believe ya'll would have been gathering some collars on a rank boar like him caught way out ......
The biggest pig I got back home was 237 he was coming down from the mountains to feed in the sugar cane at night then back up so he was a bad boy n in shape we don't cut anything bigger then 100 pounds and I believe hairy holder does hunt the delta and catches big rank boars if I am not mistaken Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk |
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MAUKA 2 MAKAI
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Black Streak
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« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2016, 06:21:47 am » |
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For me the dog should bay or catch as fast as it can first if it's not successful first second or 3rd try and so on it should keep trying. Now that comes with style you hunt and size of your property and restrictions of your dogs and how you want the dog to hunt. I judge bottom from the first action of baying or trying to catch that's where I feel bottom is noted. Prior to that is range and desire to hunt. I like a super rough catchy dog to have much less bottom then say a loose dog you all know the reason. Any one can say this or that but deep down every one would like to have a dog that would stick to one till the end of time. But in most cases it's not practical. If a dog catches as soon as it gets to the hog ain't much need for bottom it will cause more problems then help. And a loose dog with no bottom is on the other side will up set u when the dog comes back empty handed. Bottom is in the eye of the dog owner to me
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This is a really good post Judge and captures well what I was trying to articulate. |
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hyan
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« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2016, 06:22:50 am » |
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I don't know if you can compare catching rank boars here to the islands ........ from what I have seen it is some ruff up and down country ....but the size and strength of the boars is way different ...... 250 pound rank male on good feed is hard to handle ....the male we caught about a week ago had 3 curdogs on him he knocked one bulldog clean out and beat my gyp off on a tree .......when we cut him his seeds was like ground meat them curdogs was working on him and he still put it on our catchdogs from time we turned catchdogs loose we had him tied in about 5 too 6 minutes ........I just believe ya'll would have been gathering some collars on a rank boar like him caught way out ......
You are right on the size thing but I do believe also that because of the harsh climate they have to live in it makes the pigs there much Stronger then say pigs up here most every boar or lahole you run in to there won't think about running until he is latched on to my buddy had some rough bay dogs they would hit pigs the pig would start to fight then they would let go bay again once they let go and the pig relized what happen he was off they had to grab his sack to stop him again and then it would play out again grab pig runs ext. Till the pig finally said my bum hurts sits down and fights from him bum you can use rough dogs there but has to be more then two maybe around 5 to put the stop on pigs where they find them the pigs there are mean all of them that we have let go tried to get us and even with two dogs on there head if they seen a glimpse of you that's where they are trying to drag the dogs to Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk |
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MAUKA 2 MAKAI
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Black Streak
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« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2016, 07:00:32 am » |
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I don't know if you can compare catching rank boars here to the islands ........ from what I have seen it is some ruff up and down country ....but the size and strength of the boars is way different ...... 250 pound rank male on good feed is hard to handle ....the male we caught about a week ago had 3 curdogs on him he knocked one bulldog clean out and beat my gyp off on a tree .......when we cut him his seeds was like ground meat them curdogs was working on him and he still put it on our catchdogs from time we turned catchdogs loose we had him tied in about 5 too 6 minutes ........I just believe ya'll would have been gathering some collars on a rank boar like him caught way out ......
Parker you painted a picture for me of those dogs fighting the big boar. Your cd sounds like it did its job but the curs ripping on the boar while the bulldog was caught didn't help the catch dog on this boar. Your so wrapped up in what you have seen over the past years with your own dogs, that it's almost impossible for you to grasp what happens with different style dogs. Really sounds like a bad boar that would have tested any dogs metal but in all likelihood 2 and only 2 finder holders or just 2 big but good cd's would have held that boar without as much fuse. They would have been more in control and not bitting, barking, chewing, and inciting more violence from the pig. The level of energy put into escape and defense and assault on the 2 cd's by the pig would have deesculates after the first minute of hookup without the way it's done as Hyan and I describe using only 2 finder holder type dogs. Not like the dogs are caught way out and the boar fights just as hard from start to finish the entire time it takes you to get there. When you get to a catch often times the boar tries a little harder but nothing like the initial hook up. If you have never hunted like this, then I wouldn't expect you to get it. Just got to take the word of people that do. I've hunted both ways and understand both really well. You do not. you understand 1 really well, not the other as you have proved many many times in the past threads. No big deal, just stop telling people like me what would have happened with our type dogs on pigs you catch in the type of environment you hunt. Been there and done that buddy, with two different kinds of dogs. Hyan has provided pictures of what he hunted back home and and give good detail of the dogs and their hunt style. Even in the face of that, you still stand on your soap box saying your dogs hunt what ours can't. just cause we don't hunt that stuff anymore doesn't mean if we moved back to our old haunts, we can't go back to hunting it again. |
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parker49
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« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2016, 08:39:47 am » |
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i meant to add .... besides the smaller rooter hogs we had some good meat hogs too when i was a kid also but they wasn't rank wild like now they bayed up easy .....maybe its the Russian in them now and the logged out timber they just harder to catch ..... and we have better dogs now ....
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