Big dogs and thick brush myth

[Black Streak]

Seems as though we on this forum have humanized the big dog to the point it's more like use than animals.    Every other animal besides a big dog can apparently get through brush well.    Pigs, deer, cows, little dogs, etc.     big dogs and humans seem to be the only things that have a hard time with it according to the common theme on here.      My dogs can jump over the side of my truck bed from the ground yet some think they would have a hard time getting through swamps.   no, I've hunted with their littermates and parents in the swamps in the delta along the Gulf of Mexico and in the jungle of crap that surrounds it on dry land.        it's just crazy the things people will assume to be true on here without hard evidence to back it up.   Then they dispute the evidence given and then begin to try and tweak the argument saying well it would be suicide for a catch dog to hold a pig long in that stuff.    Which that's already been discussed by sighting the differences between 2 cd's only and a cd or two accompanied by bay dogs.    just not the same.     Course the biggest evidence of proof that debunks this myth is that if this is really so, then how is it done so successfully by dogs in different parts of the country like Hawaii or the delta along the Gulf Coast and by the same family of dogs I'm running.            Then the it goes to well the pigs are smaller.         
      People on this subject are like Democrat's running for office.    Their story and argument changes each time it's debunked or fact checked.            A few people claim to have dogs that bust the brush but as most have pointed out in story after story, they all have dogs that hunt the brush.    Who doesn't hunt the brush on here? Not a single person that I'm aware of which includes myself.        Why then is it such an improbable thing for finder holder guys to not be able to do well in the brush.      What's so different about a cross bred finder holder than a cross bred bay dog other than the holder will catch and the bay dog won't.    Its crazy what some will so blindly buy and so blindly follow and regergitate.           Proof to your point is going out with a big pet and sending it into the brush behind some hunting dogs, that's not proof, that's ignorant.        Compare two like things.   Hunting dog to hunting dog experienced cd to experienced cd.
Take the word of people that do things successfully over those that have failed and give up.      It's just common sense.   
         

[Curcross1987]

It's not a myth it is a fact that a big dog in a bad thicket can not perform like a small dog in a bad thicket

[Judge peel]

I will say this I have some small dogs and some big stocky dogs that I hunt every week   The smaller dogs smoke the bigger dog every time. That being said when the bigger dogs get there it is game over. There not any thing you would call a finder holder but a striaght catch cur. My biggest dog goes around 90 lbs cat Florida cur cross. He is not a speedy dog or his litter mates and previous litters but they will bust thru best they can. If we are talking deep brush and long distance I from my own experience will say the smaller dog will smoke the taller dog. Now if there are opening that stretch a bit then the taller dog can use his speed to recover. Then u have to take in for the 20 foot creek inbankments deep water tall grass 6 strand fence no climb fence and brairs so thick a flash light can't go thru. Now I would say you will have dogs no matter the size or breed they just plain get it done but most are to there weak point as they are to there strong point. If you got a guy 5 9 165 lb in top shape vs a 6 3 240 lb guy top shape there will be thing one can do that the other can't same with dogs   


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[bigo]

I didn't say your dogs could not get through swamps, I said they would be no faster than mine in the swamps. Your dogs would be hard pressed to outrun him on open flat ground. You started all this mess by implying that if we could not catch hogs in the open, we could not catch them in the woods. It's easy to catch them in the open, if you have fast dogs and most good bred stock dogs are very fast. A wild hogs top speed is around 28 to 30 mph. A young crossbred heifer can run that fast or faster and these dogs blow by them and stop them from running off all the time. You may have good dogs but lots of other people do to. They can catch just as many as you do, in the open or in the brush. We just like dogs that are not one dimensional. We can catch hogs, pen the hogs, pen the cows, hunt other game and they guard the place and livestock from two legged and four legged varmints when they are laying around the house and lots of them can jump over the side of the truck.

[Goose87]

I didn't say your dogs could not get through swamps, I said they would be no faster than mine in the swamps. Your dogs would be hard pressed to outrun him on open flat ground. You started all this mess by implying that if we could not catch hogs in the open, we could not catch them in the woods. It's easy to catch them in the open, if you have fast dogs and most good bred stock dogs are very fast. A wild hogs top speed is around 28 to 30 mph. A young crossbred heifer can run that fast or faster and these dogs blow by them and stop them from running off all the time. You may have good dogs but lots of other people do to. They can catch just as many as you do, in the open or in the brush. We just like dogs that are not one dimensional. We can catch hogs, pen the hogs, pen the cows, hunt other game and they guard the place and livestock from two legged and four legged varmints when they are laying around the house and lots of them can jump over the side of the truck.

Good response big O, Dean I have to ask why is is so important for you to get people to convert to your "style" of dogs, some folks like Chevy some dodge and some ford, you know what all 3 have in common, they get you where your going, I can appreciate dogs of your style and enjoy reading about them and watching videos but there's nothing in this world that will convince me that style of dogs is going to put my style to shame where I live unless I witness it first hand with my own two eyes done consistently, yes I believe your dogs are agile and can move through brush quickly but I have good cur dogs that can do that to, the difference between a finder/holder and a good cur is a good cur wi have the nose to continue on with hog for hours if needed running off scent...


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[hyan]

I didn't say your dogs could not get through swamps, I said they would be no faster than mine in the swamps. Your dogs would be hard pressed to outrun him on open flat ground. You started all this mess by implying that if we could not catch hogs in the open, we could not catch them in the woods. It's easy to catch them in the open, if you have fast dogs and most good bred stock dogs are very fast. A wild hogs top speed is around 28 to 30 mph. A young crossbred heifer can run that fast or faster and these dogs blow by them and stop them from running off all the time. You may have good dogs but lots of other people do to. They can catch just as many as you do, in the open or in the brush. We just like dogs that are not one dimensional. We can catch hogs, pen the hogs, pen the cows, hunt other game and they guard the place and livestock from two legged and four legged varmints when they are laying around the house and lots of them can jump over the side of the truck.

A dog has to be going 38 or faster to catch a running pig in open stags top out at around 40-43 if you cur can run that fast put some type of catch dog in that line and use it as a fast catch dog that way if a pig brakes he can just run it down and I am being serious 

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[hyan]

I didn't say your dogs could not get through swamps, I said they would be no faster than mine in the swamps. Your dogs would be hard pressed to outrun him on open flat ground. You started all this mess by implying that if we could not catch hogs in the open, we could not catch them in the woods. It's easy to catch them in the open, if you have fast dogs and most good bred stock dogs are very fast. A wild hogs top speed is around 28 to 30 mph. A young crossbred heifer can run that fast or faster and these dogs blow by them and stop them from running off all the time. You may have good dogs but lots of other people do to. They can catch just as many as you do, in the open or in the brush. We just like dogs that are not one dimensional. We can catch hogs, pen the hogs, pen the cows, hunt other game and they guard the place and livestock from two legged and four legged varmints when they are laying around the house and lots of them can jump over the side of the truck.

Good response big O, Dean I have to ask why is is so important for you to get people to convert to your "style" of dogs, some folks like Chevy some dodge and some ford, you know what all 3 have in common, they get you where your going, I can appreciate dogs of your style and enjoy reading about them and watching videos but there's nothing in this world that will convince me that style of dogs is going to put my style to shame where I live unless I witness it first hand with my own two eyes done consistently, yes I believe your dogs are agile and can move through brush quickly but I have good cur dogs that can do that to, the difference between a finder/holder and a good cur is a good cur wi have the nose to continue on with hog for hours if needed running off scent...


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Finderholders can stay with pigs for hours also it depends what you add in them ie more nose from one breed hounds have stamina also there not like fat people where just cus there big they are not in shape also how you run them and once one a pig it is expected to hold just as long as you expect your bay dog to bay if you call a cur off a pig every time it brakes that cur will stop running them after a while same with finderholders you let them hunt they hunt you call them off they stop hunting and come back

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[Reuben]

here is something to consider...some may think that they have an awesome pack and they do when it comes to catching pigs...but sometimes the reality is that there is one good track dog in the bunch all the rest of the dogs will follow...and then one day that track becomes alligator bait and then reality sets in...seen it more than once...

many a cur dog will run down and catch a hog in the open...and the chances of catching hogs go up in late winter when the weeds are down and the weather is cooler...down in the south where the palmettoes are thick and sometimes 8 or 9 ft tall it will not matter...the terrain will be the same year round...

[Black Streak]

I haven't read any responses yet but have some further points to make regarding the big dogs don't do brush very well debate.            
    Things evolve over time.  There is discussion on this very forum regarding this issue and pig.   used to they grouped and bayed I read, now they run.          Look at the dogs most commonly used now in the US for pig dogging.     cow dogs converted to pig dogs.    Look at the pit bull.   it's almost come full circle, from bear and bull baiting then to fighting other dogs now back to catch boar.   Think of the transitions the pit has went through.    Now look at the original boar dog.    Why is it so hard to believe it would convert back to what it was originally bred for with a little coaxing.   Why is it so hard to belive Americans can't do with a dog what other countries either have done or presently do.    We are the world leader in developing things.  We in our short history have brought the world from the horse and buggy to now being able to fly, speak to someone around the world in 30 seconds, capture moments in time and relive the past via video, we have walked on the moon, brought the life expectancy from 5p years up to 85 and so on and so on and so on and so on.    Why  can we not do with big dogs what other countries have done and are doing.         Heck the work as already been done, the breeds already created, all it takes is unlocking  the dogs ability.   Hence crossing them.  
       I've read on here pages upon pages of stuff about breeding better dogs.   Breeding for this or that, now we have people on here breeding them to look alike.    How does this just stop with bay dogs.   It doesn't!    My type dogs are just foreign to most here but the same concept  that applies to breeding better bay dogs or strike dogs  still applies to dogs you are unfamiliar with.
           I realize Finder holder types are a new concept here in America.   That largely contributes to a lot of the false information  spread on this forum and other places about them.      There is lots to discuss about them, they are a new type dog to most.   Most have probably never seen one hunt or hold but speak about them and tell me what they can't do when they have never even  been with someone who hunts them.   Same with large powerful athletic lead in catch dogs.     I didn't own them, i owned pits for my lead in.    The big cd's always performed as good or better in thick briars because of the exact opposite reason most on here sight.   "They get hung up in brush"    I witnessed time and time again the exact opposite.   They were not my dogs, I'm not ashamed to say it.   I had the little ones.        Pits are my favorite breed but that don't mean I have scales over my eyes.         We all have dogs that do well in the brush.   it is not just unique to small cd's and  bay dogs.

[joshg223]

Hyan if those dogs are so good why don't you have some on a boat over right now cause the way it sounds it be like shooting fish in barrel with the east Texas terrain


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[Black Streak]

I didn't say your dogs could not get through swamps, I said they would be no faster than mine in the swamps. Your dogs would be hard pressed to outrun him on open flat ground. You started all this mess by implying that if we could not catch hogs in the open, we could not catch them in the woods. It's easy to catch them in the open, if you have fast dogs and most good bred stock dogs are very fast. A wild hogs top speed is around 28 to 30 mph. A young crossbred heifer can run that fast or faster and these dogs blow by them and stop them from running off all the time. You may have good dogs but lots of other people do to. They can catch just as many as you do, in the open or in the brush. We just like dogs that are not one dimensional. We can catch hogs, pen the hogs, pen the cows, hunt other game and they guard the place and livestock from two legged and four legged varmints when they are laying around the house and lots of them can jump over the side of the truck.

Good response big O, Dean I have to ask why is is so important for you to get people to convert to your "style" of dogs, some folks like Chevy some dodge and some ford, you know what all 3 have in common, they get you where your going, I can appreciate dogs of your style and enjoy reading about them and watching videos but there's nothing in this world that will convince me that style of dogs is going to put my style to shame where I live unless I witness it first hand with my own two eyes done consistently, yes I believe your dogs are agile and can move through brush quickly but I have good cur dogs that can do that to, the difference between a finder/holder and a good cur is a good cur wi have the nose to continue on with hog for hours if needed running off scent...


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   I'm not trying to convert anybody.    I'm trying to stop the spread of misinformation and doing so by teaching  and sharing info.           I really can't think of a better way to dispell myths.         I feild a question now and then to someone asking a specific question such as how to catch pigs on small places instead of  loosing them across property line.     Then when I do that it turns into a debate about my dogs vs others dogs.        So seeing the need for proper information, I'm trying to share about my dogs, both the good and the bad.      Pros and Cons.      I'm not advocating people switch to my style.   I actually don't encourage most anybody to do so because just having the proper dogs is not good enough, you need to know how to hunt them.      Most people not gonna put the effort into proper dogs or get their heads wrapped around the proper hunt style.    Thus it would be counter productive for me to advocate people go this route.    However, what's wrong with getting the correct information out there.          There are a few people like I was who thirst for information about these dogs and this style of hunting.     What not a better place to come for information on pig dogs and pig dogging than this forum?    Am I wrong?        This is a new thing to a lot of people.   why can't this be a good source to obtain the truth and dispell the myths?     That's my approach and why I'm saying and sharing what I am.

[Scott]

You see, the thing about "teaching" is you have to know your "students"....there are some folks commenting on this thread that have used dogs on livestock and in the woods longer than most of the others have been alive.. Personally, I reckon they know a thing or two that maybe the "teacher" don't.

It would be prudent for all to choose their "teachers" wisely....

[hyan]

Hyan if those dogs are so good why don't you have some on a boat over right now cause the way it sounds it be like shooting fish in barrel with the east Texas terrain


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Because I don't have 5k to ship one dog if I can get my hands on finderholders up here I'll happily run them if I had the space I would breed them myself but I don't have the space to breed 6 different dogs nor the time and another thing to think about is the hog population in tx vs hi if dog can find pigs where there arnt that much then they dam sure can find them where the population is out of control

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[l.h.cracker]

Health certificate and a airplane flight a few hundred dollars Hairy Holder told me he flew a couple pups to Hawaii for a few hundred dollars.

[hyan]

You see, the thing about "teaching" is you have to know your "students"....there are some folks commenting on this thread that have used dogs on livestock and in the woods longer than most of the others have been alive.. Personally, I reckon they know a thing or two that maybe the "teacher" don't.

It would be prudent for all to choose their "teachers" wisely....

It depends on the type of dog they have used for all those years you can have "teacher" that teaches math for 100 years that same "teacher" can't tell some one who has bin teaching history for 15 years how to do there job and not if the history teachers parent has also thought history who's grandfather has also thought history and so on for 5 generations they have all bin history teachers,I don't say much about curs because I only started hunting behind them in Jan but I think the curs I hunt behind are the best curs there are... but I will be the first to admit I hate dragging a bulldog in and out of the woods that's why I don't like the American style of running bay dogs n cds I know that this style catches pigs and I love the dogs Bayed up but it the walking a dog that sucks for me...are you saying that this is not the place for finder holder type dogs and this is just for cur/bay and walk in cds?      

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[Judge peel]

When I was on the island I wanted to bring my pits over that was a costly and time consuming affair due to the two month Quarantine. So I never did They don't have some of the stuff we have here that would run like wild fire there. But any ways coming back wasn't that bad bunch of guys I knew brought them back that was 25 yrs ago


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[Judge peel]

To catching curs not much else needed


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[hyan]

Health certificate and a airplane flight a few hundred dollars Hairy Holder told me he flew a couple pups to Hawaii for a few hundred dollars.

If a dog is flown to hawaii it has to go in quaritin for at least 6 months all paid for by you average cost is $3500 just for that not the plane ticket they used to let vets do checks up here then send them in but there has bin snakes and other wildlife found on the tarmac so they have cracked down hard hawaii doesn't even let you ship green coffee because of bugs in the coffee if it was just a few hundred I would have a set of dogs here already

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[hyan]

When I was on the island I wanted to bring my pits over that was a costly and time consuming affair due to the two month Quarantine. So I never did They don't have some of the stuff we have here that would run like wild fire there. But any ways coming back wasn't that bad bunch of guys I knew brought them back that was 25 yrs ago


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I wasn't born 25 years ago old man lol but yea in the 90s gas was 50 cents there now it's $5 a gal

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[bigo]

hyan, I've dumped my dogs on a 30 head sounder and had them run by them 'till they got to the front and stop them all in the field. Now I don't know how fast that was, but it was fast enough. If I had put catch dog in them, they would have caught the first hogs they came to. That and running hogs down and stopping them in the open is done by stock bred dogs all the time. Some dogs are very fast and not just crossed up running dogs. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
    Very few dogs can run 43mph. Only 30% of greyhounds bred to race make the grade and 43 to 45mph wins many races. There used to be a Greyhound brush track near my home where they ran match races on Thursday nights. Never saw anyone bring a stag and bet their money. There were a good many Stags around in those days. They used them on rabbits and Coyotes. Wild hogs were not in that part of the country then.