Big dogs and thick brush myth

[justincorbell]

hyan, I've dumped my dogs on a 30 head sounder and had them run by them 'till they got to the front and stop them all in the field. Now I don't know how fast that was, but it was fast enough. If I had put catch dog in them, they would have caught the first hogs they came to. That and running hogs down and stopping them in the open is done by stock bred dogs all the time. Some dogs are very fast and not just crossed up running dogs. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
    Very few dogs can run 43mph. Only 30% of greyhounds bred to race make the grade and 43 to 45mph wins many races. There used to be a Greyhound brush track near my home where they ran match races on Thursday nights. Never saw anyone bring a stag and bet their money. There were a good many Stags around in those days. They used them on rabbits and Coyotes. Wild hogs were not in that part of the country then.
    

Wait so you are telling me what finderholders can't do but just said that pigs were not even apart of the country yet? And this is in you life time so let's say your talking about the 50s idk how old you are my family has bin ranching kapapala ranch over a 142 years and have bin running dogs from that time to work cattle then would take the most ruff crazy stupid dogs didn't matter the breed to hunt pigs as finderholders so if my family has bin run these type dogs that long and you didn't even have them in your county how can you say that curs are better? Never mind this is pointless nothing can compare to curs end of story a cur can outrun a gray hound a rough cur can go one off and hold a pig for hours and can run a pig for miles and never get tired a cur can out run and stop any pig that comes in its nose and is just so good that you only have to breed for looks o and there "mental" and a finderholder can do none of that if a finderholder even gets in the presence of a cur it will cower in amazement and ask the cur to sign it's brestplate period facts are facts

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Bout time you realized all that

There was supposed to be a smiley face....just pickin at ya

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[Scott]

You see, the thing about "teaching" is you have to know your "students"....there are some folks commenting on this thread that have used dogs on livestock and in the woods longer than most of the others have been alive.. Personally, I reckon they know a thing or two that maybe the "teacher" don't.

It would be prudent for all to choose their "teachers" wisely....

     You mean like the guy who said speed was mental lol
  Cow dogs and other livestock dogs are not the same subject matter as the hunting and catch dogs I'm speaking of.    I think you have your teacher and classrooms confused.      Not very effective to have an algebra teacher teaching history would you say?   Kinda the hole point I'm making about how different the styles are and dogs are.    Just not the same course my friend.    For example, just because I know what I do about finder holders and stags, doesn't give me expert knowledge on hounds.       Different course requires different teacher.   Simple really and again common sense.

Well, my common sense tells me that big o and many like him have most likely been working dogs for longer than you have been alive. He's seen big dogs, leggy dogs, short dogs, small dogs, hounds, curs, bulldogs, etc. And more than likely the vast majority of crosses that are/were being done. You sir, may be an expert on your dogs and style of hunting, but when comes to choosing a teacher on dogs working and hunting livestock would it be prudent to choose a teacher that's lived it for 40-50 years or one that has for 10-20 years?

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[hyan]

hyan, I've dumped my dogs on a 30 head sounder and had them run by them 'till they got to the front and stop them all in the field. Now I don't know how fast that was, but it was fast enough. If I had put catch dog in them, they would have caught the first hogs they came to. That and running hogs down and stopping them in the open is done by stock bred dogs all the time. Some dogs are very fast and not just crossed up running dogs. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
    Very few dogs can run 43mph. Only 30% of greyhounds bred to race make the grade and 43 to 45mph wins many races. There used to be a Greyhound brush track near my home where they ran match races on Thursday nights. Never saw anyone bring a stag and bet their money. There were a good many Stags around in those days. They used them on rabbits and Coyotes. Wild hogs were not in that part of the country then.
    

Wait so you are telling me what finderholders can't do but just said that pigs were not even apart of the country yet? And this is in you life time so let's say your talking about the 50s idk how old you are my family has bin ranching kapapala ranch over a 142 years and have bin running dogs from that time to work cattle then would take the most ruff crazy stupid dogs didn't matter the breed to hunt pigs as finderholders so if my family has bin run these type dogs that long and you didn't even have them in your county how can you say that curs are better? Never mind this is pointless nothing can compare to curs end of story a cur can outrun a gray hound a rough cur can go one off and hold a pig for hours and can run a pig for miles and never get tired a cur can out run and stop any pig that comes in its nose and is just so good that you only have to breed for looks o and there "mental" and a finderholder can do none of that if a finderholder even gets in the presence of a cur it will cower in amazement and ask the cur to sign it's brestplate period facts are facts

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Bout time you realized all that

There was supposed to be a smiley face....just pickin at ya

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Sorry it took so long for me to come to my senses 

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[Reuben]

"Big dogs and thick brush myth"...I have been told by more than a few dog men that the best dogs to work all day and every day are less than fifty pounds...they eat less, they can maneuver better in the thick brush and are generally more agile in tight quarters and hold up better in the heat...I agree with the logic...I personally like dogs a certain size and anything past that I would cull...now I am more lenient on account I am not focused on purifying and improving on a bloodline...my main interest is in having and retaining decent dogs at this late in the game...cost too much money to do it how I bred my dogs at one time...

I like a certain size dog...I have said it many times on here...I use football players as the example for the dogs I try to breed for or acquire...

They would be the middle linebacker of the football team...not the biggest but big...not the strongest but strong...not the fastest but fast...when they hit you...you know you've been hit...

[Reuben]

oops...I left...not the quickest but quick...and not to be confused with speed...

[l.h.cracker]

Average Grey's 66-88# Average Sheppard is 66-88# Average cat 50-75# Average whippet 15-30# These are male's averages Blacks and Hairy Holders  crosses are much larger breeds and they average 75-100# this what Hairy Holder and Black told me And you're not going convince me that a 4month old dog's finding and catching rank boars.I'm sure you're a great guy and I believe that your family catches a bunch of hogs in Hawaii and that your family line of dog's are good dog's and I am sure that you could bring them here and catch plenty of hogs in thick country and open country.My point of my original response was that I hunt with similar dog's but I'm not blind,I understand that different places require a different dog to hunt it in the most efficient and effective way.Like I said I'm sure that the finder holder type dog's could catch hogs in these places but a casting type dog that will bay and then relay on the pack works better in certain situations just as a striker catcher works better in other's.I cannot help but call b.s. when I see b.s. sorry Bud lol.

[buddylee]

No matter the dogs size, they all have a hard time keeping up with a hog in really thick brush, briars, etc. If ur dog can run a 50lb pig down in really thick briars, you have an extraordinary dog. i don't care how old you are, no one has hunted in every situation, with all the different breeds and crosses. There are too many variables. Conversations like this really show folks level of intelligence.

[Reuben]

No matter the dogs size, they all have a hard time keeping up with a hog in really thick brush, briars, etc. If ur dog can run a 50lb pig down in really thick briars, you have an extraordinary dog. i don't care how old you are, no one has hunted in every situation, with all the different breeds and crosses. There are too many variables. Conversations like this really show folks level of intelligence.

Yep...many different scenarios...even a 200 lb. Boar hog...they bust through that brush like a hot nice cutting butter...and the dogs fall behind working the track...that is a big disadvantage...that is why we sometimes have long races...that is why many dogs have mt cur are a dash of hound bred in them...

Many hunters like cur dogs that if they don't stop one right away to give it up and look for another...this type of dog requires lot's of roading or the hunter walking many miles to put these dogs on hogs...

[hyan]

Average Grey's 66-88# Average Sheppard is 66-88# Average cat 50-75# Average whippet 15-30# These are male's averages Blacks and Hairy Holders  crosses are much larger breeds and they average 75-100# this what Hairy Holder and Black told me And you're not going convince me that a 4month old dog's finding and catching rank boars.I'm sure you're a great guy and I believe that your family catches a bunch of hogs in Hawaii and that your family line of dog's are good dog's and I am sure that you could bring them here and catch plenty of hogs in thick country and open country.My point of my original response was that I hunt with similar dog's but I'm not blind,I understand that different places require a different dog to hunt it in the most efficient and effective way.Like I said I'm sure that the finder holder type dog's could catch hogs in these places but a casting type dog that will bay and then relay on the pack works better in certain situations just as a striker catcher works better in other's.I cannot help but call b.s. when I see b.s. sorry Bud lol.

never said that pup found this pig and in the other post I said two pups and on holder I should have said to pups and one finderholder my fault second the size of a dog also depends on the breeding so if I take a big grayhound bread it to a big Sheppard chances are the pups are going to be big then I take that cross it with another big cat then cross that back in to each other then put a little wippet in to the mix chances are if you breed big dogs to big dogs the pups will come out big we only would breed the biggest to the biggest then I think it got to close cus the pups started coming out weird so when and breed them farther apart like you are talking average we were trying to breed above average and I would think some with as much knowledge as you are trying to breed above average dogs also if you want size your not going to breed a runt if you want long distance your not going to breed a dog that stays by your feet if you don't want number 2 dogs your not going to breed skates (culls) that cat we put in our line was almost exactly like judges dog but ours had a little longer face my dad just put him down a few months ago cus he got so poor we got him in 2000 I think it was and he was finding pigs good in hawaii just took him some time to get used to hunting the mountains he was from tx just don't know where

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[T-Bob Parker]

A hound is bred to take track, move it with steady line control and pursue their game till the animal decides to bay or tree.

A collie is bred to be sent to cattle and sheep, judge the intentions of the animal who wishes to stray and compensate for the animals movement by eye contact, intimidation or even thru the bite when necessary. They know the animal belongs either in a group or where the human wants it to be and good ones will die to do the bidding of their master

A Pit Bull was bred to be matched in the pit with another dog, to engage, fight and remain fighting thru pain and distraction, to be ever willing to continue the fight until he or his opponent is eternally defeated.

A Labrador is bred to retrieve downed game birds, thru the tall grass of an upland field or the icy waters of winters duck spreads. They have the undercoat and the mental determination to fulfill their role and the intelligence to respond to complex commands

A sight hound is bred to hone in on movement, rapidly pursue and outpace its quarry and take them down either to kill by themselves, with a pack or to hold for the handler to dispatch.



A cur dog is none of these things, and all of these things, but to argue that curs as a whole are better duck dogs than Labradors is as pointless and futile as arguing that curs are better "finder holders" than the dogs who've been designed for that task.


Proper Texas style cur dogs were designed to tend to stock around the home, and be an improvement on their owners eyes, ears, nose and athletic abilities. The use of a cur stock dog was to be available when needed, to leave ahead of its owner, find his animals wherever they are, gather them together thru using the animals instincts to his own advantage, then help the animals to calm down and settle into a group waiting the arrival of the owner.
Once the owner arrived he could account for his animals, catch unmarked ones out of the group to work them while a few good dogs kept the herd together despite the rising stress of the stock. The owner may then choose to throw some salt or feed to the stock and call his dogs off and ride away, and the curs had better be smart enough to leave the bay and return to his horse once called. Or he could send the dogs to the front to lead the stock as he went around the back end to push their "personal space" boundaries to get them to moving the direction he wanted. Once the group was moving, the curs were to allow them to do so, but to help control their speed and direction, if things got out of hand, the owner could signal the dogs to stop the herd and settle them down again.

See, lots of the above traits went into the creation of these "cur" dogs, but not everyone these days understands the dogs and their instincts, so you end up with people dead set on "my dogs are the best at xyz, but xyz just happens to be a thing that abc dog was literally created for.
I'm out of time and will expand further in a bit.

[T-Bob Parker]

A cur dog is none of these things, and all of these things, but to argue that curs as a whole are better duck dogs than Labradors is as pointless and futile as arguing that curs are better "finder holders" than the dogs who've been designed for that

What I meant to add to that is that what makes a better "hog dog" is dependent on what you are looking for a "hog dog" to be.

If you want to find a big boar hog, but you pay no attention to the hogs habits, you honestly don't know where hogs go, what they do, when they run, when they sleep, only that you see a track right here and you want a dog to smell it from right here and eventually find the hog and once it does, you don't care how long the dog needs to chase it, you just know you eventually want to catch it, then STOP insisting that curs as a whole are the dogs for you! You are in need of a hound even if you don't know it and if you breed curs long enough, your curs will eventually be hounds anyway. I.E.; Plott hound history.

If you know there are hogs where you live because you see them all the time, and you could easily shoot them but you really would rather catch one or even several of them with a few dogs each trip, then running straight up catching dogs is probably going to work just fine for you, no need to reinvent the wheel, just use dogs already made for that or you'll end up breeding curs away from all their other traits and watering them down to simple sight casting or short winding running Catchdogs. Why? Those already exist.

If you want a hog dog to absolutely hate a hog with every fiber of its being that he will lose his ever loving mind once he catches up to a hog and bay so madly that he pays no attention to what's happening around him you will easily accomplish this goal and you will routinely have to put your dog on a leash after every hog and drag them away from a caught hog, load them up and drive them away until they calm down and forget about that one that's tied so that you can go back to hunting. 


Once you see the type of curs BigO and several other have produced doing the job they were created for, in the hands of a man who knows how to use them right, you'll understand why there's no better all around hog or stock dog. Seeing subpar "curs" in the hands of every Tom, Dick and Harry with a dog box, it's understandable why you've decided Finder Holders are "where it's at" and honestly, if I'd never known real Cur Dogmen, I'd probably be right there with ya.

Hope you all are having a great Sunday, blessings to all.

[Reuben]

Excellent posts there T-bob...

[Reuben]

The one thing l will say about the average stock will be a cull...just as any other breed...

I have seen to many not have the nose or bottom to be hog dogs...but the ones that do can be awesome hog dogs...

[bigo]

I don't care what performance animals that are being bred, only a low percent make top of the heap type of animals, weather its hunting dogs, race dogs, race horses, performance horses or whatever performance animal. The nose on some stock dogs was lost because of smaller improved pastures and you didn't need a dog to go find animals in big wooded places. If people had to go find then drive cattle 7 to 12 miles to a pen, they would cull most of the dogs people think are stock dogs. The quarter backing alligators would make driving cattle a mile an all day job.
   The same with every running dog I've seen. Some can run faster than others and some do good to run 35 or 36mph. That's still fast enough to catch hogs.
    People use to come hunt with me and say, man you got good dogs, and I'd think that's because you haven't seen all the sorry and mediocre ones. To me an average dog is like a fast horse, he will run just fast enough to lose your money, because a race horse will out run every time. Every breeding program tends to gravitate to average over time and some crosses work and some don't.

[Judge peel]

I think dogs as every thing else get better in time. I think the main reason is we have less time then 30 40 50 or 100 yrs ago. If you look at the finish product they look better to. I truly believe that this as most things was achieved due to the need to have things done faster. But I can see how some things were done away with cuz they just weren't needed as much. Just like in 40 more yrs people be like they was doing what


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[Reuben]

Well...my grandfather and grandmother road a wagon behind mules or horses 12 miles to town and my dad his fine horse alongside...by the late 40s my dad purchased motor  vehicles for getting back and forth to the farm/ranch...did all that after WW2...the mules went by the wayside and tractors replaced them...we evolve according to the new technology at hand...

I Remember the first computers at work...the boss said he was going to air condition the place for us...found out later computers need cool air for the electronics and of course low humidity...a win win...no more fighting mosquitoes...about that microwave ovens hit the scene...and Mobil phones soon after and they weighed about ten pounds...

And where I grew up it was mostly brush country and I could run my dogs any direction from the doorstep...and now it is cleared farmland as far as you can see...

[Black Streak]

You see, the thing about "teaching" is you have to know your "students"....there are some folks commenting on this thread that have used dogs on livestock and in the woods longer than most of the others have been alive.. Personally, I reckon they know a thing or two that maybe the "teacher" don't.

It would be prudent for all to choose their "teachers" wisely....

     You mean like the guy who said speed was mental lol
  Cow dogs and other livestock dogs are not the same subject matter as the hunting and catch dogs I'm speaking of.    I think you have your teacher and classrooms confused.      Not very effective to have an algebra teacher teaching history would you say?   Kinda the hole point I'm making about how different the styles are and dogs are.    Just not the same course my friend.    For example, just because I know what I do about finder holders and stags, doesn't give me expert knowledge on hounds.       Different course requires different teacher.   Simple really and again common sense.

here cowdogs and hog dogs has always been same dogs. When I was younger we would find bay and pen cattle for 2 days load up same dogs and go hog hunting on the 3 rd day find bay and catch hogs all with same ole stock breed cur dogs. I don't fool with cows much any more but still several people here still doing same thing with the same cur dogs that have been bread same way for last 60 years or more

yeah lot of folks do that here as well.        I grew up on a cattle Ranch were cow dogs were apart of  life and work.        I'm very familiar with cow dogs.   many different breeds and purposes.    example: boarder collie  vs blue laceys.      two entirely different styles.          Cow dogs are much more than pig dogs.    You can take cow dogs pig hunting  and get along well but your not gonna get along well if you take pig dogs to gather cattle.    I could go into a 3 page report about this and actually already have on this forum once already but I'm just gonna leave it at this.    if your interested in what I said about cow dogs, go back into the archives.   

[Black Streak]

You see, the thing about "teaching" is you have to know your "students"....there are some folks commenting on this thread that have used dogs on livestock and in the woods longer than most of the others have been alive.. Personally, I reckon they know a thing or two that maybe the "teacher" don't.

It would be prudent for all to choose their "teachers" wisely....

     You mean like the guy who said speed was mental lol
  Cow dogs and other livestock dogs are not the same subject matter as the hunting and catch dogs I'm speaking of.    I think you have your teacher and classrooms confused.      Not very effective to have an algebra teacher teaching history would you say?   Kinda the hole point I'm making about how different the styles are and dogs are.    Just not the same course my friend.    For example, just because I know what I do about finder holders and stags, doesn't give me expert knowledge on hounds.       Different course requires different teacher.   Simple really and again common sense.

Well, my common sense tells me that big o and many like him have most likely been working dogs for longer than you have been alive. He's seen big dogs, leggy dogs, short dogs, small dogs, hounds, curs, bulldogs, etc. And more than likely the vast majority of crosses that are/were being done. You sir, may be an expert on your dogs and style of hunting, but when comes to choosing a teacher on dogs working and hunting livestock would it be prudent to choose a teacher that's lived it for 40-50 years or one that has for 10-20 years?

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Your common sense tells you what makes a teacher better than another is years spent doing it?    Jesus was younger than me when he was crucified.    Do you think others are better teachers that preach the same message because they are older than He was and as a result been living it longer than He did?           

[Black Streak]

"Big dogs and thick brush myth"...I have been told by more than a few dog men that the best dogs to work all day and every day are less than fifty pounds...they eat less, they can maneuver better in the thick brush and are generally more agile in tight quarters and hold up better in the heat...I agree with the logic...I personally like dogs a certain size and anything past that I would cull...now I am more lenient on account I am not focused on purifying and improving on a bloodline...my main interest is in having and retaining decent dogs at this late in the game...cost too much money to do it how I bred my dogs at one time...

I like a certain size dog...I have said it many times on here...I use football players as the example for the dogs I try to breed for or acquire...

They would be the middle linebacker of the football team...not the biggest but big...not the strongest but strong...not the fastest but fast...when they hit you...you know you've been hit...

I've been told by a bunch of dogmen that your as fool of crap as a septic tank.     I have high suspect you haven't caught 5 pigs in the past 5 years less you have tagged along with someone else.       
There are all kinds of dogmen.   pit guys, border collie guys, greyhound men, bird dog men, lab guys, finder holder guys, cur bay dog guys etc.         Just cause I say I know some good dog men doesn't men they are qualified to be used as references on certain breeds or styles.
 Just because you can say you know a dog man or two doesn't automatically make them qualified to speak on certain things.      I strongly suspected you fudge the truth a little but I think you do this unintentionally and are unaware

[Black Streak]

I have enjoyed my time here on the forum but I think my time is about up.      The reasons I have been on here have  evidently been full filled.   I still had some things I would have liked to have shared but I'm being directed to use the time I spend on here to review and study in preparation for things to come in my life.
    Just cause I'm leaving this forum ( for how long I don't know) doesn't mean I'm slacking off on pig dogging itself.   Actually I forsee a lot more of it and am getting more work in some really good places.
       I sure don't mind talking dogs on a personal level to individuals via texting or phone calls that are curious about my type dogs or my style of hunting  but I'm not gonna be coming on here anytime soon to do it  but hopefully later in the future.       
   To those who visit this forum in the future  and go back looking in the archives scratching for information on finder holder type dogs or stags, your very welcome to reach me at 940-634-0811, if you would like to visit  with me eventhough I probably will not be an active member of the forum.       Happy hunting.
              in closing I'd like to leave yall with this.      If you believe what others say about you or are negatively influenced by them, then what you can accomplish and who you can be, will be limited by others.