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Goose87
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« on: December 13, 2016, 12:44:50 pm » |
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Saw on Mikes thread about his pups a post about tone breaking. I'd like to hear how yall go about doing it, I have a few that are tone broke but that came about the wrong way and now I have to be careful on one of them if not I can easily ruin the hunt with him. A few weeks ago I put a dummy collar on one of my pups and last Saturday swapped it with a shock collar, I put him on a 50' line and toned him while calling him, I had to give him a little tickle and he immediately came to me, from there when he would get out to the end of the line I would tone and he would come straight to me, we would walk a little farther and about 5 minutes later I would repeat and he came, did that probably a dozen times, I eventually turned him loose and when he was about 100 yds away I toned him and he didn't respond, so I gave him a little harder tickle, and he kept going, so I toned again and gave him a little more stimulation, he completely freaked out the two times I did that, they were about 20 minutes apart, now when he hears the tone instead of coming to me he runs an hides under whatever is nearest, so instead of going any further with it I just stopped and put the dummy collar back on him and put him back on his chain and called it a day, what am I doing wrong and what can I do different...
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HIGHWATER KENNELS
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« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2016, 01:25:59 pm » |
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Man,, I don't think its something u doin wrong,, I think it comes down to the dog itself... Although I have seen collars work on some dogs ,, I have also seen dogs that don't respond to them very good,,, they either get collar smart or they are too hard headed to learn from it.. Might be the case here,,, Kinda like women,, they all different .. lol...
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Hoghunters do it deeper in the bush.
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joshg223
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« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2016, 02:23:31 pm » |
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I'm wanting to get mine tone broke also and not sure of the best way to go about it on my older dogs.
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TheRednose
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« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2016, 03:04:05 pm » |
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Take this for what its worth but I tone train much different and have done it really fast and successfully with a few dogs so far.
First I never shock them at all when i am tone training them. Second all of mine have already been trained to comeback when I vocally call them by name.
I just start out in the hills with them and turn them loose. When they get out about 30-50 yards I tone them then I vocally call them to me, when they get to me I give them a little treat and pet them up. Then I ignore them and let them start to range again and then when they get a ways out but where they can still see me and hear me I do the same thing. I repeat this 5 or 6 times. Next I only tone them to see what they do. If they come I give them a treat and pet them up again and then repeat a few more times, if they don't I go back to toning and vocally calling. Once they have done it a few more times successfully I take them home. Then I take them out the next day and try with only toning and see if they come, if they do I reward them by petting or treat or whatever I prefer at the moment. I do it a few more times to reinforce and they should be good to go. Maybe give them a couple of days off and go through same routine again. Won't take too long and they will fully be toned trained I bet.
I rambled long enough good luck with yours.
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Reuben
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« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2016, 08:08:10 pm » |
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I haven't had the opportunity to train my dogs to the toning but have worked on it a few times...but will stick to my plan until proven one way or another...
all my dogs know to come when called...in the yard they will come...in the woods they come when they are ready to go home...so me knowing that they know...I will only tone them after I call them off the track...if they don't come I will give a medium shock and increase until they give up the track and head back to me and load up...and they will know I am very happy and will give them lots of praise...
there won't be any sessions because this could ruin a dog if not done properly so will stick with real life situations...if the dogs know to come when called but choose not to because they can get away with it...they will learn real quick that I can reach out and touch them...I have to be very careful in making sure they hear me before I initiate contact...
my logic tells me that most of the time the dogs will be running and baying hogs and we will be in the chase with them... and they know that...and they know we approve...
and when it is time to go home they should learn rather quickly with the T115...once they learn that there shouldn't be any reason why we can't tone them away from crossing roads etc...
not speaking from complete experience but on how I plan to use the system...
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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shadygrovehawgdawg
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« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2016, 09:49:39 pm » |
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I'm pretty much like Rednose, I cut up hot dogs and have them in a baggy in my pocket. I like to just let 1 pup at a time loose so they naturally don't get out as far and like to check in more often. When they start coming back to me, I start toning them. When they get to me I make them let me touch them and give them a slice of the hot dog. Once they know I have it they come often. In just a few attempts they are coming at the tone. Hot dog treats become fewer and farther between. I always make them touch me, then I can always catch them. It's an old bird dog trick, no coming close to me and not letting me put my hands on them. I practice this at the house, not the woods. Shocking ability is great, but can and has ruined as many as it's helped. This tone button is a great tool. Just another thought or idea. Thanks.
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Slim9797
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« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2016, 10:25:01 pm » |
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I'm trying right now with my kate gyp. Not doing anything else except when hunting, if I call her back for some reason tone her right before, and then every time I call her right after. Guess I'll see how winging it works out.
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We run dillo dogs that trash on hogs
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Goose87
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« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2016, 10:55:37 pm » |
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My problem isn't getting him to come at the tone or when called he's been conditioned to come to
me when called since he was on the tit, my problem is when he is about 100-150 yards out and has his mind set on something, not responding to the tone or me calling him and then freaking out when he gets stimulated and I'm not talking about frying him either. Not trying to be a smart as$ but have yall tried throwing a hot dog to a dog thats 100-150 yards away, you don't get much reaction...
Going to give Rednose's method a try...
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CHRIS H.
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« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2016, 11:12:58 pm » |
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My problem isn't getting him to come at the tone or when called he's been conditioned to come to
me when called since he was on the tit, my problem is when he is about 100-150 yards out and has his mind set on something, not responding to the tone or me calling him and then freaking out when he gets stimulated and I'm not talking about frying him either. Not trying to be a smart as$ but have yall tried throwing a hot dog to a dog thats 100-150 yards away, you don't get much reaction...
Going to give Rednose's method a try...
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Something to take note on that might make a difference while hunting is that Red Nose will call his dogs in , then turn them out agin . Sounds like your dog is giving you the finger By calling the dog in then Turing the dog out agin it learns just because it comes back to you it doesn't mean the hunt is over .. Do you think that could be why he doesn't respond ? Because he thinks it equals sitting in a box .. |
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Cajun
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« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2016, 06:17:06 am » |
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Everybody has their own method & what works on most dogs, there will come a dog that is the exception. Most of my pups will come to me like you said Goose, from weaning age on because I make a fuss over them when they come. I just reinforce that when they are 4-5 months old & put them on a 75 ft. ski rope & repeat it by calling them & toning them to come in. If they do not come in, I will bump them & haul them in hand over hand. It is better not to overdue it & keep sessions short & do it over a few days. On the rope they learn fast. Most of mine when I turn them loose & they are off the rope, I will have to bump them to get them in. Dogs are like kids & they will try you & never start a war you cannot win. From a dogs point of view if you are over there & he is a couple hundred yards away smelling something very good it is natural for them to ignore you. Most will come if you bump them & now we get to the exception. You have to make that dog learn that he haas to come, no matter what & the best way is in a fenced inclosure that they cannot get out of. Find a pasture or baseball field that is completely fenced & turn the dog loose in there & let him work off some energy for about 10 minutes and then tone him. If he does not come, then bump him until he does. If he lays down on you walk up to him & try to get him to come the last few feet & reward him. It also helps if you have his buddy with you. Keep him on a leash the whole time & a dog will come a lot faster to you if he knows his buddy is there.
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Bayou Cajun Plotts
Happiness is a empty dogbox
Relentless pursuit
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TheRednose
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« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2016, 11:24:27 am » |
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Goose with the one that is freaking out when you shock him, I would just start all over with him and I would not zap him again for awhile or you risk just totally shutting him down. I might start out with a long rope like Cajun mentioned in a controlled area. Once you get him coming back to you on tone only in that controlled area then just keep reinforcing it for awhile without the rope. I would really get him 100% on this in a non stress situation first. Just an idea for ya, good luck with your pup.
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Swine-Stalker
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« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2016, 01:37:34 pm » |
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I rarely ever use tone and shock. Only time I use them is when leading my bulldog but they have gotten to where I snap the lead and they fall in proper walking. Its not show quality, just a loose lead.. and I use it for the occasional lippy dog in the box. Anyways, with my curs, for some reason they just tend come when called for the most part. I think there is a fine line that can be easily crossed when training a dog to come back... with calling, and especially with a collar. I would definitely make sure I knew what I was doing first. Mine get to know their name and my voice when I feed and when I call them when trying to load after a drop. I never call it to train them to come back at short and medium distances. Some dogs... it may condition them to not range out. They may think "he doesn't want me going this far out". If a pup gets off my yard, I chase him down lol. When I drop them at a hunt... No one can talk to or touch the youngsters, only when they are in the box. Surprisingly they aren't wild animals lol. I have one old cur that has never been shocked but just toned her by mistake twice and both times she shut down the rest of the hunt. Maybe my dogs are just too sensitive. I would definitely consider other methods... I believe the dog decides how much is too much and I wouldn't want them conditioned into being a lap dog.
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We'll all be equal under the grass, God's got a heaven for country trash
"The problems we face today are there because the people who work
for a living are now outnumbered by those who vote for a living."
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TheRednose
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« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2016, 03:04:34 pm » |
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I think the most important thing is that they have to fully understand the tone means comeback. If they understand this and you tone them and they don't comeback you can start to use stimulation to stop them followed by additional tones to get them to come back. The end result is they don't think you are shocking them for running hogs, but that you are zapping them because they need to comeback.
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Reuben
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« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2016, 07:46:51 pm » |
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Everybody has their own method & what works on most dogs, there will come a dog that is the exception. Most of my pups will come to me like you said Goose, from weaning age on because I make a fuss over them when they come. I just reinforce that when they are 4-5 months old & put them on a 75 ft. ski rope & repeat it by calling them & toning them to come in. If they do not come in, I will bump them & haul them in hand over hand. It is better not to overdue it & keep sessions short & do it over a few days. On the rope they learn fast. Most of mine when I turn them loose & they are off the rope, I will have to bump them to get them in. Dogs are like kids & they will try you & never start a war you cannot win. From a dogs point of view if you are over there & he is a couple hundred yards away smelling something very good it is natural for them to ignore you. Most will come if you bump them & now we get to the exception. You have to make that dog learn that he haas to come, no matter what & the best way is in a fenced inclosure that they cannot get out of. Find a pasture or baseball field that is completely fenced & turn the dog loose in there & let him work off some energy for about 10 minutes and then tone him. If he does not come, then bump him until he does. If he lays down on you walk up to him & try to get him to come the last few feet & reward him. It also helps if you have his buddy with you. Keep him on a leash the whole time & a dog will come a lot faster to you if he knows his buddy is there.
lots of good comments...but I agree with Cajun...I don't use the rope because my dogs have a fenced in yard I turn them loose in from their pens...I used to train my dogs and pups years ago...but over the years I learned that training can be made easy and I just use opportunities to train...lay the foundation down and use positives...the pups should learn to trust you even when you scold them...after a while they learn that all is forgiven quickly as long as they do right... I don't call them to shove a pill down there throat...that is a negative...instead I weight when we have meat and gravy for dinner and then I mix in the wormer or amoxicillin capsule in... a vaccine...give under the skin and praise them real good until they forget about it and focus on the praise...stop at a good point... pups...don't feed them and turn them out because there is no incentive to go back in the pen...you will call and they won't come...you will get pissed and run them down to put them up...after a while they will out run you and then the relationship goes south...they have learned not to trust you and they also learned they don't have to come when called because they can out run you... instead...let them out while very hungry...let them rough house and work off energy...every now and then step out with a few treats and call them to you and pet them up real good for a minute or two and get back to what you were doing...when it is time to put them up is when you know they are tired and ready to eat...I call load as if I were calling them out of the woods...clap my hands and call...as they come running to the pen I holler kennel...snap my fingers and give a hand signal to enter the kennel...and they come running...it is that easy to train pups to gunfire as well...after a while they learn that you can get on their but and they will stop what they are doing and come lick your hand asking forgiveness...they know they can do this because they trust me... perfect? no...they will keep hunting from daylight to almost dark and I can call and they won't come...but I am starting to like my alpha system... like Cajun said...don't give the command if you can't back it up... Goose...didn't mean to get off subject but since Cajun touched on laying the foundation I thought I would add my version which is very similar to Cajuns... |
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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NathanDoss
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« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2016, 02:01:18 pm » |
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I had hard headed leapord dog that minded when he wanted too... Sometimes he'd come when called, toned or bumped. When he wouldn't come I'd turn the heat up. And he'd run and get under a trailer or truck. When he did I'd hold the heat on him until I got my hands on him and then I'd realese the heat and pet him up. After a few times of this he started minding. Now I can call him off cows with no collar. I tried this method on a bulldog but she left the country and got out of range of the tri-tronics. Lol. But she eventually came back to the house.
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