Large catch dog 55+ lbs VS small catch dog 50 and below

[Sambo5500]

To get it back on topic some, does superior gameness mean it's a great catch dog? Not really. As was said, dead game means the dog lost. I have been around plenty pits that were awesome catch dogs and plenty that weren't but we're super game. I've also been around big American bulldogs, dogos, and the big finder holder types that were way superior as catch dogs to game pits. I think everyone agrees that know one on here likes a big, slow, bad breathing, sloppy dog.

[gary fuller]

What is best in your opinion? Small or large. I like large because I feel like they won’t be as much of a “erring” for a big hog.

lot of good debate in this thread. and i could definately throw in my 2 cents too,lol.  but back to the original question.... my personal opinion for the way ive hunted the last 20 some years  is large. and in my case it was 60 to 90 pound american bulldogs. but for 20 years prior i rarely hunted with anyone who used a bulldog/ turn in catchdog. we just had dogs that typically would catch and hold once enough of em got there.  i think the actions, size and ability of the other dogs  will determine the size of catchdog you need.  if you have dogs who will all grab and hold as soon as one dog is brave enough to grab the head then the size of the first dog to grab doesnt matter usually. when i first started using the american bulldogs , my partners pack consisted of mainly dogs that bayed and werent help on a good hog so  basically the catchdog was the only dog holding. for that reason i prefered bigger bulldogs. currently my  partner has rough/catchy dogs  and in general bigger dogs also. with these dogs a small bulldog works just fine.

[hyan]

yup, im one removed from the fight world but my breeder would generally agree. State of mind I defiantly agree with as i have some dogos and ab's as hard or as game as any pit in this world.


Make-em-squeal, I will disagree with this too... APBTs are the gamest dogs made and it is not fair to the breed to say you have a mixed breed or ab that is as game as any pit there is. You must be a long way removed from the "fight world" as you put it if you think you have a dog as game as a good APBT!

How is it the most game dog? If the dogs was so game people wouldn’t pull out of the box because of 1 pound difference if a dog is game and so amazing they should be able to take any dog no matter the size. That’s like saying a 155 pound black fighter is the baddest dude ever when a normal 200 pound fighter would rake him.


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They have been bred for 100+ years to be game... no other dog has been bred for gameness like an APBT has been.

Size has nothing to do with gameness. Just because a dog is game does not mean the dog is the baddest. There is a huge difference between gameness and being a badass. The reason people take the forfeit on a pound is because you want to be evenly matched and not give the other dog an advantage. No where was it ever said that the APBT was the baddest dog ever. Maybe your definition of gameness is screwed up... a little research in that area would go a long ways.

Game in my definition is a dog that will go at it 100% weather they are win losing or on deaths door they will fight with every thing they have. N I have seen dogs do that from a lot more breeds then just a pit.


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Of course you have... You've seen everything. Did you see one continue until they were actually dead?

Once I am not saying that pit are good game dogs I am saying u can’t say that they are the best ever n most game when they only bin breeding for 100 years like said


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Ok, I will ask again... Have you seen one of these dogs that you claim to be as game as an APBT continue until they are dead?
I can say they are the gamest dogs ever made and will continue to say they are the gamest dogs ever made. You will, on occasion, find a game dog that isn't an APBT, hell there is a chance you may even find a blue dog that is game for that matter but they are few and far between.
Pitbulls have been being bred for well over 100 years... Name 1 other dog that has been bred for gameness for even 100 years.

I said once meaning one time. Are we just talking about the pit? No I can’t name another dog. Talking about hunting then yes.


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[Sambo5500]

Yeah some of you hardcore pitbull guys seem to be talking about gameness in the fight world. I've seen plenty if hunting dogs of many different breeds be extremely game on a pig to dead game. Many dogs die hog hunting either from the hog or the heat because they work them selves to death. I know it's different than gameness in the pit. But, it would technically be dead game because they dies doing their job.

[TheRednose]

To get it back on topic some, does superior gameness mean it's a great catch dog? Not really. As was said, dead game means the dog lost. I have been around plenty pits that were awesome catch dogs and plenty that weren't but we're super game. I've also been around big American bulldogs, dogos, and the big finder holder types that were way superior as catch dogs to game pits. I think everyone agrees that know one on here likes a big, slow, bad breathing, sloppy dog.

Good point and I agree, I don't think gamebred dogs overall make the best catch dogs, in fact depending on what you are calling a gamebred dog I don't think they are suited to be catch dogs. I would say the best catch dogs I have seen have all been quite a few generations removed from the pit. This is just my opinion.

[gary fuller]

Yeah some of you hardcore pitbull guys seem to be talking about gameness in the fight world. I've seen plenty if hunting dogs of many different breeds be extremely game on a pig to dead game. Many dogs die hog hunting either from the hog or the heat because they work them selves to death. I know it's different than gameness in the pit. But, it would technically be dead game because they dies doing their job.

sambo and hyan... now you got it. the pit dog  guys refer to gameness only in one way and that way is in the box.  i guess what should be said is gameness is subjective. gameness in the box against a opponent of the same weight and hopefully both in shape is where the apbt tetsts gameness. but a dog that dont quit on a hog can be called gameness for the act of catching hogs. the same can be applied to catching butterflies. if that is what you do then a dog that never quits in his attempt to catch a butterfly then hes game for that .  in typical combat sports for men, roosters and true pit dogs they are matched according to weight.  in hog hunting it isnt a match to see which individual can win.  im not trying to be sarcastic just glad to see now people getting on the same page  concerning gameness.  physical conditioning also really comes into play  for how long an animal or human will continue fighting. its easier to take a whoopin if you arent also physically  and or mentally exhausted. if you look deeply into dog and cock fighting you come to realize that animals dont always have to be truely  deep or even dead game for you to win a good majority of your fights. THEY NEED TO BE GAME ENOUGH TO WIN.  carry this over to hog catching and true deep gameness or dead gameness doesnt typically catch hogs. a dog with enough gameness to catch hogs  usually does the trick,lol. and arent we wanting dogs that catch and hold hogs succesfully . at least in this thread.

[Judge peel]

Gary your right the more game in the dog the more it will try to reposition it’s self regrip. Bad deal for a catch dog great for a fight. A lot of cur dog or cross bred cur x pit dogs will do this as well. The best suited bulldog is what we use to call farm pits bulldogs that weren’t hot but could handle bizz when called upon to do so. Basically a cold bulldog that was to no use to be contested but could thrive as a pet and multiple use dog. These dogs where sold by the truck load.


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[hyan]

Yeah some of you hardcore pitbull guys seem to be talking about gameness in the fight world. I've seen plenty if hunting dogs of many different breeds be extremely game on a pig to dead game. Many dogs die hog hunting either from the hog or the heat because they work them selves to death. I know it's different than gameness in the pit. But, it would technically be dead game because they dies doing their job.

sambo and hyan... now you got it. the pit dog  guys refer to gameness only in one way and that way is in the box.  i guess what should be said is gameness is subjective. gameness in the box against a opponent of the same weight and hopefully both in shape is where the apbt tetsts gameness. but a dog that dont quit on a hog can be called gameness for the act of catching hogs. the same can be applied to catching butterflies. if that is what you do then a dog that never quits in his attempt to catch a butterfly then hes game for that .  in typical combat sports for men, roosters and true pit dogs they are matched according to weight.  in hog hunting it isnt a match to see which individual can win.  im not trying to be sarcastic just glad to see now people getting on the same page  concerning gameness.  physical conditioning also really comes into play  for how long an animal or human will continue fighting. its easier to take a whoopin if you arent also physically  and or mentally exhausted. if you look deeply into dog and cock fighting you come to realize that animals dont always have to be truely  deep or even dead game for you to win a good majority of your fights. THEY NEED TO BE GAME ENOUGH TO WIN.  carry this over to hog catching and true deep gameness or dead gameness doesnt typically catch hogs. a dog with enough gameness to catch hogs  usually does the trick,lol. and arent we wanting dogs that catch and hold hogs succesfully . at least in this thread.

That’s the point I was getting at I think a dog can be tested and be more game in a hunting situation then in the pit just because it’s a light weight going against a super heavy weight. I know a lot of people say funny stuff about one out finder holder dogs but in Australia not saying they work every where or are the best just saying there I have seen dogs hold pigs for 30 mins in the middle of summer and be on the verge of death from the heat and still holding or a cd be bleeding to the point they can’t walk or even stand but still hold. Matching dogs or cocks for that matter is illegal and I think there are other ways to test a dogs game and harder ways then in the pit. That being said I do have the up most respect for dog men that did match dogs. I just think imo that there are harder test then in the pit with a dog of the same size. If I have a gamebred dog that is just bred out amazing but never tested in the pit how can I say I have a game dog. I can sell the pups for a ton of money because of the papers but my non tested dog could be a cur n throw 9 out of 10 cur pups. Again that’s just my opinion and I don’t condone any illegal activity lol


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[Sambo5500]

Yup a 300# boar with 3-4 inches of ivory hanging out of its mouth is a pretty good test if you ask me. Lots of dogs of all breeds have found that out the hard way.

[Judge peel]

I feel that the hogs are not a true contest of game ness of a dog in the contested aspect of the word due to this. The big 300 lb 4 inch cutter hog can kill any dog with one good swipe only testing the up front gameness of any dog. I feel like the finder holder type dogs are more based on there physical attributes not there willingness. All tho they are game in there own right it’s not the same. If you seen a white tail whoop a elk you would say dam but if you seen a elephant whoop a elk you wouldn’t think much of it.


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[Sambo5500]

Again that just goes to show that gameness that is highly valued in a pit isn't as important in a catch dog. And no disrespect but the finder holders are pretty game. They have also been bred to do a job for many years to be good at it. I still say many on here have never hunted with true finder holder type dogs. Yes their size and physical attributes help but that is kinda the point of them. Right tool for the job kinda thing. Just because a small dog can catch and hold a big pig doesn't mean it was the best way. Especially when you get them off and they are beat to hell and cut up. Where the big dog did it easy.

[Goose87]

Yeah some of you hardcore pitbull guys seem to be talking about gameness in the fight world. I've seen plenty if hunting dogs of many different breeds be extremely game on a pig to dead game. Many dogs die hog hunting either from the hog or the heat because they work them selves to death. I know it's different than gameness in the pit. But, it would technically be dead game because they dies doing their job.

sambo and hyan... now you got it. the pit dog  guys refer to gameness only in one way and that way is in the box.  i guess what should be said is gameness is subjective. gameness in the box against a opponent of the same weight and hopefully both in shape is where the apbt tetsts gameness. but a dog that dont quit on a hog can be called gameness for the act of catching hogs. the same can be applied to catching butterflies. if that is what you do then a dog that never quits in his attempt to catch a butterfly then hes game for that .  in typical combat sports for men, roosters and true pit dogs they are matched according to weight.  in hog hunting it isnt a match to see which individual can win.  im not trying to be sarcastic just glad to see now people getting on the same page  concerning gameness.  physical conditioning also really comes into play  for how long an animal or human will continue fighting. its easier to take a whoopin if you arent also physically  and or mentally exhausted. if you look deeply into dog and cock fighting you come to realize that animals dont always have to be truely  deep or even dead game for you to win a good majority of your fights. THEY NEED TO BE GAME ENOUGH TO WIN.  carry this over to hog catching and true deep gameness or dead gameness doesnt typically catch hogs. a dog with enough gameness to catch hogs  usually does the trick,lol. and arent we wanting dogs that catch and hold hogs succesfully . at least in this thread.

That’s the point I was getting at I think a dog can be tested and be more game in a hunting situation then in the pit just because it’s a light weight going against a super heavy weight. I know a lot of people say funny stuff about one out finder holder dogs but in Australia not saying they work every where or are the best just saying there I have seen dogs hold pigs for 30 mins in the middle of summer and be on the verge of death from the heat and still holding or a cd be bleeding to the point they can’t walk or even stand but still hold. Matching dogs or cocks for that matter is illegal and I think there are other ways to test a dogs game and harder ways then in the pit. That being said I do have the up most respect for dog men that did match dogs. I just think imo that there are harder test then in the pit with a dog of the same size. If I have a gamebred dog that is just bred out amazing but never tested in the pit how can I say I have a game dog. I can sell the pups for a ton of money because of the papers but my non tested dog could be a cur n throw 9 out of 10 cur pups. Again that’s just my opinion and I don’t condone any illegal activity lol


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The only sure fire way to test a dogs game ness is with another dog, talking APBT, it’s encoded in their DNA to conquer and destroy what ever is in front of them, they don’t have the fight or flight mentality like a wild animal such as a boar, a hog has it in his mind to survive so once they have the upper hand they run for survival, a game bred APBT on the other hand does it to destroy...


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[Goose87]

Why do you think the origins of the breed gravitated from actually using bulls to testing against other dogs...


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[Goose87]

To get it back on topic some, does superior gameness mean it's a great catch dog? Not really. As was said, dead game means the dog lost. I have been around plenty pits that were awesome catch dogs and plenty that weren't but we're super game. I've also been around big American bulldogs, dogos, and the big finder holder types that were way superior as catch dogs to game pits. I think everyone agrees that know one on here likes a big, slow, bad breathing, sloppy dog.

Good point and I agree, I don't think gamebred dogs overall make the best catch dogs, in fact depending on what you are calling a gamebred dog I don't think they are suited to be catch dogs. I would say the best catch dogs I have seen have all been quite a few generations removed from the pit. This is just my opinion.

I agree a lot with this statement, the biggest problem I’ve seen with using dogs from the box to hunt with that they shake bad once they have a bite, trying to disable their opponent instead of worrying about control, and I’ve seen it to many times they get so worked up that when they go into a bay they usually bounce off the hog and miss, this not always the case though, my best catchdogs were never my straight game bred dogs when I had them, I always found the most success with half to a quarter hot blood crossed over some cooler milder stock...


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[hyan]

To get it back on topic some, does superior gameness mean it's a great catch dog? Not really. As was said, dead game means the dog lost. I have been around plenty pits that were awesome catch dogs and plenty that weren't but we're super game. I've also been around big American bulldogs, dogos, and the big finder holder types that were way superior as catch dogs to game pits. I think everyone agrees that know one on here likes a big, slow, bad breathing, sloppy dog.

Good point and I agree, I don't think gamebred dogs overall make the best catch dogs, in fact depending on what you are calling a gamebred dog I don't think they are suited to be catch dogs. I would say the best catch dogs I have seen have all been quite a few generations removed from the pit. This is just my opinion.

I agree a lot with this statement, the biggest problem I’ve seen with using dogs from the box to hunt with that they shake bad once they have a bite, trying to disable their opponent instead of worrying about control, and I’ve seen it to many times they get so worked up that when they go into a bay they usually bounce off the hog and miss, this not always the case though, my best catchdogs were never my straight game bred dogs when I had them, I always found the most success with half to a quarter hot blood crossed over some cooler milder stock...


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Aren’t they culls then? Cus if you send a gamebred dogs that is bred for the pit then they catch a hog n not grab a dog then are they still game? If they are being bred for 100’s of years to fight other dogs then they are around a bunch of other dogs n don’t touch one of them then are they really a gamebred dog or are they just a number 2ty catch dog with a bunch of game breeding?


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[Judge peel]

I have been to bays where young bulldogs where sent in and get there and be caught on a dog. This is more on the handler not the dog. Most bulldogs that want to work will grab anything it’s focus is on. Take the pig out of there and your going to have a problem. But just because it don’t grab a dog don’t mean it won’t go into one. These dogs are smart they can’t be taught just bout anything.


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[Austesus]

Not sure if it applies the same way to dogs that are bred for the pit... but the guy I hunt with trains dogs for a living and he has broken many from dog aggression just by getting them focused on pigs. I was with him on one hunt, he had a pit that was a few years old and real dog aggressive. It was the dogs first hunt and he jumped on my cur and my pit within about 30 minutes of us getting out of the truck (we walk hunt). After getting a real good talking to with the butt stock of a rifle he kept about 50 feet away from us, just following. We got on a few pigs that day and he never jumped on a dog again.


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[Goose87]

To get it back on topic some, does superior gameness mean it's a great catch dog? Not really. As was said, dead game means the dog lost. I have been around plenty pits that were awesome catch dogs and plenty that weren't but we're super game. I've also been around big American bulldogs, dogos, and the big finder holder types that were way superior as catch dogs to game pits. I think everyone agrees that know one on here likes a big, slow, bad breathing, sloppy dog.

Good point and I agree, I don't think gamebred dogs overall make the best catch dogs, in fact depending on what you are calling a gamebred dog I don't think they are suited to be catch dogs. I would say the best catch dogs I have seen have all been quite a few generations removed from the pit. This is just my opinion.

I agree a lot with this statement, the biggest problem I’ve seen with using dogs from the box to hunt with that they shake bad once they have a bite, trying to disable their opponent instead of worrying about control, and I’ve seen it to many times they get so worked up that when they go into a bay they usually bounce off the hog and miss, this not always the case though, my best catchdogs were never my straight game bred dogs when I had them, I always found the most success with half to a quarter hot blood crossed over some cooler milder stock...


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Aren’t they culls then? Cus if you send a gamebred dogs that is bred for the pit then they catch a hog n not grab a dog then are they still game? If they are being bred for 100’s of years to fight other dogs then they are around a bunch of other dogs n don’t touch one of them then are they really a gamebred dog or are they just a number 2ty catch dog with a bunch of game breeding?


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I’m not sure if your missing the entire point or getting so caught up in trying to prove something wrong, it’s obvious you’ve never been around many APBT, they’re not some psycho crazy maul everything in sight type of dog, yes some individuals and strains tend to be a little on the hotter side but a well rounded well bred bulldog is smart and level headed, no that does not make them culls, just better suited for a different job, your wanting so bad to criticize the APBT, they’re not the best catchdog, no style is, they’re not the baddest dog on the planet, even Achilles and Sampson had their weak spots, they’re no better than a CD dog the size of a baby hippo or the size of a flea, they work better for some and not at all for others, they’re not any better than a dogo or American bulldog, some just prefer them, what separates them from any other breed and that is for what they were bred for, no other animal on the planet other than “game” fowl,  has been so stringently bred for one attribute than the APBT, not the dogo, not the American bulldog, although some are match quality, not anything, there’s gameness in all facets of life all around us, but please tell me any other breed of dog that has been created on the premise of gameness, nowhere in the black book of hog Doggery are you going to see that they’re solely the best nor the worst, some prefer them and some don’t, what separates them from other dogs is what the purpose of the origin and foundation that the breed was created for in the first place...

[WayOutWest]

Well put Goose, I wanted to post but you pretty much said it.

[hyan]

To get it back on topic some, does superior gameness mean it's a great catch dog? Not really. As was said, dead game means the dog lost. I have been around plenty pits that were awesome catch dogs and plenty that weren't but we're super game. I've also been around big American bulldogs, dogos, and the big finder holder types that were way superior as catch dogs to game pits. I think everyone agrees that know one on here likes a big, slow, bad breathing, sloppy dog.

Good point and I agree, I don't think gamebred dogs overall make the best catch dogs, in fact depending on what you are calling a gamebred dog I don't think they are suited to be catch dogs. I would say the best catch dogs I have seen have all been quite a few generations removed from the pit. This is just my opinion.

I agree a lot with this statement, the biggest problem I’ve seen with using dogs from the box to hunt with that they shake bad once they have a bite, trying to disable their opponent instead of worrying about control, and I’ve seen it to many times they get so worked up that when they go into a bay they usually bounce off the hog and miss, this not always the case though, my best catchdogs were never my straight game bred dogs when I had them, I always found the most success with half to a quarter hot blood crossed over some cooler milder stock...


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Aren’t they culls then? Cus if you send a gamebred dogs that is bred for the pit then they catch a hog n not grab a dog then are they still game? If they are being bred for 100’s of years to fight other dogs then they are around a bunch of other dogs n don’t touch one of them then are they really a gamebred dog or are they just a number 2ty catch dog with a bunch of game breeding?


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I’m not sure if your missing the entire point or getting so caught up in trying to prove something wrong, it’s obvious you’ve never been around many APBT, they’re not some psycho crazy maul everything in sight type of dog, yes some individuals and strains tend to be a little on the hotter side but a well rounded well bred bulldog is smart and level headed, no that does not make them culls, just better suited for a different job, your wanting so bad to criticize the APBT, they’re not the best catchdog, no style is, they’re not the baddest dog on the planet, even Achilles and Sampson had their weak spots, they’re no better than a CD dog the size of a baby hippo or the size of a flea, they work better for some and not at all for others, they’re not any better than a dogo or American bulldog, some just prefer them, what separates them from any other breed and that is for what they were bred for, no other animal on the planet other than “game” fowl,  has been so stringently bred for one attribute than the APBT, not the dogo, not the American bulldog, although some are match quality, not anything, there’s gameness in all facets of life all around us, but please tell me any other breed of dog that has been created on the premise of gameness, nowhere in the black book of hog Doggery are you going to see that they’re solely the best nor the worst, some prefer them and some don’t, what separates them from other dogs is what the purpose of the origin and foundation that the breed was created for in the first place...

Not trying to prove anything l. if u tell me that the dog is bred to be a game dog and it’s main purpose as you said is to be game and to be tested against other dogs and they don’t do that then what are they? A cull are they not? You telling me the dog will know hey I am in the pit time to turn on my dog fighting side of my mind then take them out the ring and the dog says hey there’s a bunch of dogs but I’ll catch the pig instead? Your telling me they are that smart? You know nothing of what type of dogs I have bin around or the type of foul either. You keep saying they were bred for the pit they are the best in the pit they are this and that but how can you say that when you are telling me dogs that don’t do what they were bred to do aren’t doing that at a bay? Yea I bin around gamedogs that don’t show no dog aggression then snap one day and want to kill every dog around them. They are game dogs bred for the pit and wanna do the job they were bred for or they are gamedogs that are culls but do good as hog dogs period you can’t have both.


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