Large catch dog 55+ lbs VS small catch dog 50 and below

[Goose87]

Just because you've never seen it with your own eyes doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and yes a good level headed dog knows when it's time to be about that business and when it's not needed, Ch. Kodiak lived his entire life with another male dog that was a rat terrier sleeping next to him in his house, even when he was in keep, and could be turned loose on the yard with supervision and there was never a yard accident, and whether you choose to believe me or not is on you I could careless, when I was a teenager I had a brindle street scatter bred male that I would take his collar off  to whatever, whenever, take him to the catch dog competitions we had on on the weekend and compete with him and yes send him to bays when I went hunting, one time he caught another dog and that his first and only time, and his first bay to ever go to, yes he was hot and you had to tie him back away from the other dogs, more as a precaution and a bay dog was never snagged  and he couldn't be put in a dog box with other dogs but knew the difference in what he was doing , why is it so hard for you to not believe that but have seen catch dogs that know when's it time to get down and not, no different than a professional MMA fighter getting along with the rest of civilized society,  you don't see a fullback knocking grandmas out the way at the mall for his wife, or a race horse steadily running in circles out in the paddock, yes APBT are that smart to know what their job is,are all like that,NO, a dog that doesn't do his job is a cull regardless of the type of work or breed of dog but just because they don't work out in one thing doesn't mean they won't click with something else and then there's those that don't at all, no I do not know your background and don't take it as an insult could careless to and this discussion has reached a dead end it seems, everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and opinions, so to each his own, but YES you can have both...

[hyan]

Just because you've never seen it with your own eyes doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and yes a good level headed dog knows when it's time to be about that business and when it's not needed, Ch. Kodiak lived his entire life with another male dog that was a rat terrier sleeping next to him in his house, even when he was in keep, and could be turned loose on the yard with supervision and there was never a yard accident, and whether you choose to believe me or not is on you I could careless, when I was a teenager I had a brindle street scatter bred male that I would take his collar off  to whatever, whenever, take him to the catch dog competitions we had on on the weekend and compete with him and yes send him to bays when I went hunting, one time he caught another dog and that his first and only time, and his first bay to ever go to, yes he was hot and you had to tie him back away from the other dogs, more as a precaution and a bay dog was never snagged  and he couldn't be put in a dog box with other dogs but knew the difference in what he was doing , why is it so hard for you to not believe that but have seen catch dogs that know when's it time to get down and not, no different than a professional MMA fighter getting along with the rest of civilized society,  you don't see a fullback knocking grandmas out the way at the mall for his wife, or a race horse steadily running in circles out in the paddock, yes APBT are that smart to know what their job is,are all like that,NO, a dog that doesn't do his job is a cull regardless of the type of work or breed of dog but just because they don't work out in one thing doesn't mean they won't click with something else and then there's those that don't at all, no I do not know your background and don't take it as an insult could careless to and this discussion has reached a dead end it seems, everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and opinions, so to each his own, but YES you can have both...

Your right I haven’t seen it all the dogs I have seen were hot and couldn’t be around other dogs but glad to hear that u were around and there’s a legal way for the apbt to use its ability


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[TheRednose]

You telling me the dog will know hey I am in the pit time to turn on my dog fighting side of my mind then take them out the ring and the dog says hey there’s a bunch of dogs but I’ll catch the pig instead? Your telling me they are that smart?

I can understand why you would think that way but I can tell you stories about champion game dogs you would not believe in regards to them turning on and off their dog aggression. Disclaimer this is rare but I have been told about it with other champions too.

Check this vid out and you will see what I am talking about  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TSshsDC_lE

Dogs are smart!

[Semmes]

I got this dog and two sisters double bred off Virgil. I wasn’t going for the Virgil blood as much as the blood in the sire’s side though....

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/american_bulldog/dog.html?id=2460452-semmes-cj

This is the sires ped. I was going for the grandsire cause I hunted with him and his owner quite some time and he was a heck of a catchdog. Just too old by the time I was ready to make the breeding so I bred to his son.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/american_bulldog/dog.html?id=2460455-ground-zero-kennels-junior-apbt

We just got a litter a few days ago off one of those sisters bred back to her half brother a full AB and double line bred on old AB

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/american_bulldog/dog.html?id=1298215-hendersons-tank-of-semmes

[Semmes]

Should read ‘my’ old AB. She was heck of a catchdog, conformation ch, had certified hips, a weightpull 3 title. Temperament and obedience trial titled as well out of a good healthy line... just a good all around dog. The dog I’ve focused on breeding around out of more than two fistfuls of AB’s

[Semmes]

And shouldn’t read ‘double line bred’ should read either double bred or line bred. I was gonna put double bred but changed it to line bred cause that’s what I’m doing but didn’t delete enough words lol

[Black Streak]

I have some questions or food for thought.    How do we really test a catch dog against boar?     Do we release to a pig thats already surrounded and distracted by other dogs who will also pile on and get a hold when the catch dog hits.     Have the other dogs already ran the pig a good ways and got it worn down, hot, etc now in comes the catch dog that we again run in behind and try to help out asap?               Game pits I hear were faught for sometimes well over half an hour.    These men exercised these dogs very well.   The dogs were bred to produce better pups based on what, endurance, heart, tuffness/hardness and its ability to endure and win.   I'm sure many other things went into breeding these game pits together in order to produce a better game pit for the next generation.               Before the dog vs dog there was bear baiting and bull baiting.     How were the dogs tested then against those animals.     1 on 1 both fresh  or was it different?    How long was the dog tested and these two animals allowed to fight one another back then.   
             Is what we do today with pits using them as catch dogs sending them in to a boar that's already worn down and distracted by 5 other dogs who are often times going to get a hold also once the catch dog does, then us running in behind the catch dog.               In the pit, when dogs were faught against dog or against bear or bull, did the dog wear armor such as the protective vest we put on them today?
     Having to do all this for the catch dog and breeding one like this to another, does it really further the breed along and make them better performers against such an advasary as the boar?               
           What would be breeding for a better dog?   One that could hold a big boar 1 out for longer than other dogs.  One that only needed a collar for protection against the tusks of a boar rather than full body armor and rarely in its entire life ever got injured or hurt vs one that was cut up all the time and was wearing much much more protection?        One that has the size, structure, strength and endurance to hold 1 out for a long time and remain in controle of the situation for the entire time rather than a dog that just holds on and is a weight called an anchor, if the dog is even big enough to be considered an anchor and not just an ear ring.               A dog that commands controle of almost any situation.   The boar breaks, it has overwhelming speed against the boar and recaptures it instead of the prey being lost and in the hands of other dogs or to make good on its excape.   
            What is the better type and bred cd here for pigs.   One that's just hard but can't perform its duties without the help of other dogs, is cut down often, can't controle much and people feel like they need to run in behind the catch dog and take controle of the situation in order to keep injuries to a minimum?   Or is it a catch dog  that needs no other dog to help it in any way, holds for much longer and in far less protection and lives its life with very very few injuries and is ready for work day after day after day.   

[Black Streak]

For me, the catch dog that's best is the type catch dog that makes having all other dogs pointless and a cut kit something behind the back seat you have forgotten was even there.   Performs such duties  in all areas.  Woods, waters, swamps, feilds, sight work and nose work.    Plus is a pleasure to have at home running around loose in the house or yard and doesn't stink  or slobber

[Judge peel]

Good points to the effectiveness of a catch dog. I still prefer a bulldog for a catch dog. But those big tall long dogs you got can do the trick well. If your sole porpoise is to catch hogs I am all in. The vast majority of guys will stay with bay dogs and then a cd to send in. I think guys that run super rough dogs as my self under stand a little better about what your saying. There is no dog on the planet that can produce the type of injury that a big boar can to a dog in one hit and 3 seconds that’s why we use the gear. But I understand the size of those dogs keeps that down


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[Black Streak]

Thanks Judge,      I really wanted  just to promote thought and compare how tests and trials that proved dogs and were used in the development of the breed from decades ago and centuries ago is not at all at play here unless you were to just use the 1 dog from start to finish.       In that case a new dog would emerge similar to and most likely based off a breed that's origins and use have long been forgotten.   
    I hope dearly that the pit is never allowed to become forgotten or allowed to be bred down to nothing but a house dog.    Boar are not real tests for pits in my opinion because so much has to be done on their behalf by other dogs or by us.     Even the dogo was bred to work in packs and isn't suitable for running pigs down in the open or the woods. A dogo is not a stand alone dog no matter how you slice it or how high you price it.     
     Pits are my favorite dog breed because off their heart and hardness.    I just want and see a need for a better more effective and effecient 1 out dog than a pit can possibly be.    Can you use them as such, yes and yes i have and still on occasion do.  It's a huge reason I can sit here and explain the things I am and the differences between them and my style of dog
     

[hyan]

You telling me the dog will know hey I am in the pit time to turn on my dog fighting side of my mind then take them out the ring and the dog says hey there’s a bunch of dogs but I’ll catch the pig instead? Your telling me they are that smart?

I can understand why you would think that way but I can tell you stories about champion game dogs you would not believe in regards to them turning on and off their dog aggression. Disclaimer this is rare but I have been told about it with other champions too.

Check this vid out and you will see what I am talking about  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TSshsDC_lE

Dogs are smart!

Wow yea dogs I have had the pleasure of being around we’re not that smart they were on any time there was a dog around people they would lick and we’re big babies but a rat terrier to a Dane they would want to go any where any time. I guess they were dumb lol


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[TheRednose]

You telling me the dog will know hey I am in the pit time to turn on my dog fighting side of my mind then take them out the ring and the dog says hey there’s a bunch of dogs but I’ll catch the pig instead? Your telling me they are that smart?

I can understand why you would think that way but I can tell you stories about champion game dogs you would not believe in regards to them turning on and off their dog aggression. Disclaimer this is rare but I have been told about it with other champions too.

Check this vid out and you will see what I am talking about  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TSshsDC_lE

Dogs are smart!

Wow yea dogs I have had the pleasure of being around we’re not that smart they were on any time there was a dog around people they would lick and we’re big babies but a rat terrier to a Dane they would want to go any where any time. I guess they were dumb lol

Wasn't insinuating your dogs were dumb, just giving you an example of a Gr Ch who knew when to do what is all.

[hyan]

You telling me the dog will know hey I am in the pit time to turn on my dog fighting side of my mind then take them out the ring and the dog says hey there’s a bunch of dogs but I’ll catch the pig instead? Your telling me they are that smart?

I can understand why you would think that way but I can tell you stories about champion game dogs you would not believe in regards to them turning on and off their dog aggression. Disclaimer this is rare but I have been told about it with other champions too.

Check this vid out and you will see what I am talking about  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TSshsDC_lE

Dogs are smart!

Wow yea dogs I have had the pleasure of being around we’re not that smart they were on any time there was a dog around people they would lick and we’re big babies but a rat terrier to a Dane they would want to go any where any time. I guess they were dumb lol

Wasn't insinuating your dogs were dumb, just giving you an example of a Gr Ch who knew when to do what is all.

No I am saying my dogs were not that smart there was no on off switch they were always on and that’s why I would never own one for hog dogging


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[TheRednose]

Hyan TBH mine didn't really either, and I've owned a ton of them. I had some that were cool with pups but for the most part the line I bred would turn on real young and there was no turning back off, and most would have made awful catch dogs.

Thats why I think your most consistent chance with catch dogs are ones that 3+ generations removed from competition. Even then if you are breeding tight you will still prob get a high % of hot offspring. I've seen guys do real well with some of the OFRN blood and call them gamebred even though their ancestors have been absent from competition for over 30 years lol. Smartest dog of any breed I have ever owned was a Red Devil/Corvino bred bitch I got directly from the source. She was 55-56lb lean, rangy dog looked like a greyhound on steroids with a big head, and ooooweeee fast. I think she would have made a great catch dog but I was not hunting back then. She was my rabbit and ground squirrel dog as a young teenager.

[Reuben]

IMO The average game bred APBT should never be left unsupervised...even the average APBT  can be a problem at times...cur dogs can be bad enough...but a well bred APBT once turned on...there will be something dying unless they exhaust themselves first trying to kill that something...and most of the time they will rest and then start back up again...I had a redbones APBT cross who was great friends with my wife’s miniature Westie...one day the big dog got out of his pen and was fighting through the fence with two other dogs and the two dogs in the pen eventually turned on each other...then the APBT cross turned on the westie and killed him...no one was home but the story was loud and clear...

I have seen a game bred take down a cow...and have come up on 4 or 5 common APBTs caught on cows at different times...and solo...

Many other stories in my mind I won’t talk about...IMO the right ones are the mightiest of the mighty...

[Rough curs]

Blackstreak is pretty much on the money, I don't like the loaded gun in my yard either.  Not saying I have not thought about 1,but the dogs I have bread do the job. I believe the pit in em is mild enough  for not having problems in the yard. Not saying they are 1 out dogs but I will pair em up with anything, and each 1 will try any hog ,not suicidal but not gonna give up. I posted about getting wrecked a while back,it happened again and I know why . For the first time I saw with my own eyes dogs had 1 caught and about 10' from legging him a bigger boar came from the next orchard row over and peeled all 5 of dogs off the 1 that was caught. I imagine that's what the first time same orchard same block....

[Shotgun66]

I was given a pair of pups in late 2016 that are 1/2 pit, 1/4 AB, and 1/4 Staghound. They are 19 months old now. Both have become very nice catch dogs. The female is an athletic, 75lbs and looks like an athletic bulldog. The male is 95 lbs and looks like a greyhound on steroids. My catch rate has improved quite a bit with them. They get to bays fast and if a hog breaks, they will run them down. A hog has no chance to get away in open country. The thick brush slows them down just like any other dog. The size, wind, and athleticism comes in handy. They have brains and handle like a dream.
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I have hunted with some top shelf dogos, AB’s, and pits. There are good dogs in all of them. A pair of 40lb pits are hard to beat in the brush. The good AB’s have a very nice, controlling catch style. Probably the best option if you use a solo catch dog. The good dogos are like athletic AB’s that can run hogs down regularly and work well as a lead ins.


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[Black Streak]

I was given a pair of pups in late 2016 that are 1/2 pit, 1/4 AB, and 1/4 Staghound. They are 19 months old now. Both have become very nice catch dogs. The female is an athletic, 75lbs and looks like an athletic bulldog. The male is 95 lbs and looks like a greyhound on steroids. My catch rate has improved quite a bit with them. They get to bays fast and if a hog breaks, they will run them down. A hog has no chance to get away in open country. The thick brush slows them down just like any other dog. The size, wind, and athleticism comes in handy. They have brains and handle like a dream.
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I have hunted with some top shelf dogos, AB’s, and pits. There are good dogs in all of them. A pair of 40lb pits are hard to beat in the brush. The good AB’s have a very nice, controlling catch style. Probably the best option if you use a solo catch dog. The good dogos are like athletic AB’s that can run hogs down regularly and work well as a lead ins.


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   The dogo breed does not possess the speed needed to run down pigs.    If so we would be using them for crop dogs and 1 out finder holders.      Instead they are almost entirely sent to bays by people here in the US and even in South America they use acouple  what they call a barbarucho's (something similar to that word) to run the pigs down.     They use them in their packs of dogos they hunt.           It's crazy how it's only the bay dog man who hail the dogo as a dog that runs pigs down.    I can't count on 1 finger all the finder holder men or crop doggers who use dogos because of their phantom speed.   Why is this? Because they don't posses it.  Not even a good one!    A good fast dogo only has the speed to keep up with pressured crop pigs not catch them in the feild.        If you don't believe this to be true, I invite you to bring your dogo and I'll take you and a good dogo to do some crop work and you can tell everyone if this phantom speed a good dogo possesses is real or just your misunderstanding of the real speed needed to run pigs down on a regular basis in the open.      Catching a pig in the open thats not pressured that stands and fights or just lolly gags around is easy for any cd.    The speed needed for pressured pigs in the open is much more than the 3 common breeds used as lead ins posses.   I'll gladly prove it to anyone who thinks differently so they will stop speeding misinformation about dog breeds
       

[Shotgun66]

[Shotgun66]

Let me be clear, I’m not saying dogos are the fastest catch dogs in the world. I’m well aware there are faster breeds of catch dogs out there. My point was that the good ones I have seen had more speed and wind than the pits/ABs I have seen.
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I have watched a couple of dogs run down and catch hogs in pastures & fields consistently. I guess the hogs were slow and unpressured.
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I’m not spreading bad information about them. I’ve watched it with my own two eyes.
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BlackStreak - I will never post on another thread that you comment on. You consistently come on this site looking for an opportunity to push the positive attributes of your type of dog. You regularly make condescending remarks and act as if your a moderator on all things related to catch dogs and downing bay dog guys. Life is too short to have dialogue with people who lack tact or diplomacy.


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