Australian Bandog

[Amokabs]

I haven’t seen neo added to anything and improve it. All the thug , low slung , human aggressive pit bulls were supposedly made by introducing neo. Now, they are doing the same to American bulldogs and doing their best to ruin them.  For hundreds of years , pitbull were “nanny dogs”, not so much, any more. That’s just been what I have observed, the difference, will be, you appear to be responsible in your breeding practices

[BrendanG]

@TheRednose

The feedback is invaluable. This is a very productive, informative thread that speaks to the experiences and preferences of others. You’ve expanded upon very valid points and I thank you for your suggestions.

I can certainly understand the assumed level of gameness in true apbts - and how that can solidify a level of reliability.

I also feel that larger pits - over 75/80lbs arnt necessairly game dogs. I work very closely with a Virgil mayday grunt dog who’s 75 conditioned. The rest that I’ve seen that large are scatterbred streetpits - not gamedogs.

It’s true - the present day Mastino is a monstrosity of a guard dog. Over exaggerated in type and likely lacking heart courage and will. But I can respect the original phenotype. One where the Mastino and corso were the same breed - and were tasked with farm work and all it entails (guarding flock guardian and catchwork)
They are Mastiffs - not bulldogs

I personally am not a die hard hog hunter. I have more humans than hogs in my part of the neighborhood. And a dog I can reliably count on to engage a human when necessary is something I value. If the dog can catch - I have a dog who is merely showcasing versatility. I like dogs with balanced drives. Both high in prey and defense. I participate in PP sports. Most* gamepits run into conflict when engaged in manwork. Majority of American bulldogs, Bandogs and Mastiffs don’t.

Horses for Courses.

A sporting dog is very different from a working dog. I value the gamebred dog - one of the finest demonstrations of both natural and artificial selection. But with that - comes limitations. How many gamedogs will happily walk away with a stranger?

My attempt is to recreate a coursing Mastiff. Who - while not renowned for gameness in the traditional sense - is capable of manwork, and a level of catchwork.




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[Judge peel]

I feel like the gameness is restricted in the bigger dogs due to the amount of oxygen they use in the begging of the engagement. Once there energy is depleted they slowly give up. The bulldog is genetically maxed out in its size for the right amount of each attributes. So the quit or cur in them doesn’t show up as much plus two hundred yrs of battle helps. This is why no dog can match them pound for pound. Just my two cents. Good luck in your ventures young man hope you can find what you want looks like your on a good start


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[BrendanG]

And lets be honest.

Apbt added to anything improves a breed.

A Bandog is an inferior pitbull
But a superior Mastiff


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[BrendanG]

@judgepeel

Greatly appreciate your feedback big man.
That’s what the thread is for. Thank you for the contributions. You’ve given me food for thought.

No doubt about it. I love me some gamedogs.


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[Reuben]

That last picture of the black dog with the white patch on his chest is about as good looking a catchdog I would like to have...there are 55# game bred APBT ‘s that look almost like that dog...25” at the shoulder and 75 pounds would my choice every time for a catchdog... I like them slender, leggy yet powerful for speed, wind, power and heart, the willingness to get the job done no matter what...

I have seen quite a few of the bigger dogs quit a big boar hog but catch smaller hogs...these same dogs will catch a big boar after other dogs initiate the catch...a dog of this type is not a catch dog yet some folks will feed this dog and carry it around like a catch dog...

I don’t believe their is another dog like the well bred APBT...once they go to battle there won’t be any backing up or backing down...we cannot count them out unless they have quit breathing...

The bandogs...if you want to see if they are worthy of breeding then they must catch a 200# plus boar Hog and not quit...but just like any APBT in training one must start with a smaller Hog and work up to bigger hogs or at least send him in with another experienced catch dog who is leading the way to the Bay...

Back in the 1980’s one could go to the pound and pick up an APBT and more often than not it would catch...many are not that way anymore...back then they weren’t that far removed from the pit...now it is best to buy a catch dog pup from proven lines to lower the possibility of having to cull...

[Black Streak]

      As I read I'm I keep wondering what your breeding for, as in what function is the dog supposed to serve?     A lead in catch dog I assume since the dogs lineage you got from Australia was that of lead in catch dogs.           Your interested in retarding the size of your dog because you believe it will better suit the function of the type cd dog your going for.        Your here in America where the lead in CD is king and has been perfected as much as the dogs the box trade hunters of Australia use.  Notice I said the box trade hunters, not the common pig dogger using the Arabs and that style of dog.  
   It doesn't really get any better than a pit to do lead in work.   Anything crossed to a pit for such work as you said yourself takes away from the pit.    So begs the question, what function are you trying to perform?   Your obviously wanting to improve upon something but all the breeds you have mentioned in crossing to serve no better purpose at catching pigs than the pit so why cross to them?             Form follows function, you want to breed the best but the function is not defined.     You've brought a lead in cd from Australia to America where the lead in is King.    Your throwing darts at this Aussie lead in to better it on top of that without a stated function in mind and all about the form.    Friend, your putting the cart before the horse here.        Or rather the form before a function I'm not sure you have even give much thought to.              
        My advice is first choose a function.   Then study the breeds and what made them the best at what they did.    Actually study and get real hands on experience with these breeds to see for yourself and prove the form follows function to yourself before starting this endeavour.     When you really really get to testing and finding out about dog breeds and the attributes of them, what some breed a excel at while others can't even get lucky and do, then you will have a clue as to what your doing.         If you want to breed for lead ins, these are the people and the forum to be on.  If your wanting a different type functioning cd, don't go to dairy queen asking how to make wedding cakes.        Hope this helps somewhat

[BrendanG]

This is a rather long thread - im sure some things may have been overlooked. With that said

My attempt is the recreate the coursing Mastiff. I want a dog capable of doing catchwork. I want a dog capable of doing manwork.




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[gary fuller]

best of luck brendan. have you ever looked into the lucero bandogs? i tested one on hogs for a guy some years back and he did ok. this same dog also had a sch b at the time. i am not sure if the owner went any farther with the dog in either venue of work. a friend of mine in texas named roger williams did some experimenting with crossing abs and some neo blood he imported from south africa. i am not sure how rogers breedings ever did. i used abs for woods catchdogs for many years and had a couple over 85 lbs and one was 100 in bare bones shape. the larger dog could also do bite work. i didnt go farther than basically workin the dog several times but his last owner worked him alot in protection. as i stated in the beginning, best of luck in your endeavors. gary

[BrendanG]

I’m pretty up to date in the Bandog game. Have a good working relationship with quite a few breeders and Have access to a lot here on the midatlantic

The leucero line as well as the andante/on-off/extasy are all the same thing. I’ve Seen a handful of those dogs work - most arnt what they were in the early 2000s. They are mostly very defensive, not very prey driven - PP dogs who are harder to train in high level sport work. They excel as Home guardians and I can see how - in your experience it was so-so on hogs.

Roger Williams did have some neo abs and neo ab x dutchie crosses. The dutchie blood added that speed and herder intensity. But you also saw a decrease in pain thresholds with half herder blood.

As for the neos used - there was some controversy that the neos in SA went full blooded and were instead Bandogs. Not that it mattered a whole lot imo. But the individuals used - is what makes the crosses.

I’d take a driven Neo over a flat Bandog if it made for a Stable Balanced working cross.

With that said -

Not all sport dogs make good PP dogs
Not all PP dogs make good sport dogs
Not all mandogs make good hogdogs
Not all hogdogs make good mandogs.

And that’s the difficulty in creating a “dual purpose dog” yes there’s beauty in the specialization aspect. Individual breed ARE specialists.

But what’s even harder is maintain a level of balance and stability in a population of dogs capable of doing both.

The greatest fear is that I’d run into the problem of jack of all trades master of none.

And that starts with ensuring the individuals selected and incorporated in a program are balanced, thoroughly tested, and placed in the hands of skilled individuals willing to provide honest and critical feedback.









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[TheRednose]

Brendan, I commend your effort and I wish you luck.

@TheRednose

I can certainly understand the assumed level of gameness in true apbts - and how that can solidify a level of reliability.

I also feel that larger pits - over 75/80lbs arnt necessairly game dogs. I work very closely with a Virgil mayday grunt dog who’s 75 conditioned. The rest that I’ve seen that large are scatterbred streetpits - not gamedogs.

You are correct APBT's that are on the huge side are not gamedogs nor would you want them to be anyway when talking catchdogs. You say you have some experience with Mayday, Virgil and grunts dogs, I have a lot of experience with game dogs as well. I owned dogs directly off mayday from victor, and many other dogs directly off great dogs and I think very few would have made catchdogs, not for lack of drive or gameness but for other reasons Im not going to go into. Just because a APBT is big does not mean it was not purpose bred, trust me when I say that. And just because an APBT is a few generations from the pit doesn't mean it isn't still the gamest breed outside actual gamedogs themselves.

When I made the Neo statement I did not realize you still wanted to do man work too. I personally think protection dog and catch dog work should stay separate. The last thing I need is any type of aggression towards anything but a pig when I am leading one in, or even more so when I am cutting one out. Imagine the train wrecks that could happen, though prob unlikely just imagine.

Everybody likes a jack of all trades but there really is something to specialization imo. I feel like this is one of those things, have a protection dog to protect you and a catch dog to catch and hold pigs. Now like stated before this is just my own opinion. If you simply want to make a better protection Mastiff or like you said recreate a coursing mastiff, I would guess large sight hounds like a hunting stag or other working large sight hounds and I would steer clear of any pure greyhound blood. And like you said APBT improves everything but I would keep my eye out for a line of larger working APBT's and stay away from actual gamedogs. That would be my thoughts on things.

Good luck in your endeavor and hopefully some of our rambling on here has given you some ideas.

[BrendanG]

@ Rednose

Thank you for the honesty and candor. I am by no means an expert, my experience stems from the Working PP/Sport world. Being able to engage in productive and meaningful conversation with people as passionate about their dogs is paramount. I have certainly received plenty of food for thought - and everyone has engaged in a way to help me create an ideal dog.

I think whats important here is the ability to utilize dogs who do not re-direct on other dogs/man in the midst of the activity. A clear headed and stable dog is able to continue working even while distractions are abound. It is a disaster when a dog disengages from the decoy on the field and makes its way to the crowd. I've seen it happen more than once, and speaks to the nerve and capabilities of the animal.

When it comes to manwork - really a dog who displays territorial aggression, yet has the gusto to engage is more of what I'm looking for. Not one who is a loose cannon and hops off a hog just to tag its owner, the dog next to it, or your buddy out on the hunt. That is an unstable dog who has no business working with or alongside others. Currently all my dogs are clear headed and need to be. I don't do undue aggression, lack of stability, or dogs who confront insecurity with aggression.

I believe my first crosses (neopresa x stag, and stag/ab)  will be capable  hog dogs. These heavy sighthound crosses will eliminate all man aggression/defensive drive - and really equate to solid moloss/bull lurchers. Seen quite a few in my travels and they get the job done well. It all comes down to individual selection, heavy testing and appropriate culling. Adding the  athletic molosser/ or bull breeds on top with a hint of defense - MAY add that back, but its all the experiment.

Thank you for the time and consideration. I'll def have some straight crosses i'll be posting in the dog trade section, and would love to see them in the hands of people who'll put them to use.

[Dirtysailor]

Brendan,

Sent you an email.

[t-dog]

Brendan everyone has their own flavor. I completely understand what you are trying to accomplish. There are several ways to approach it also. In MY experiences, I have seen and owned dogs of dual purpose. While they would work cows and hogs both,  I have found that usually, just like with people, they had a preference as to which one they liked best and that was most often the one they were best at. Over time other people started getting the dogs and as they used and bred them, they became a family that preferred cows over hogs or vice  versa because of selective breeding. I say to say that I doubt that you experience anything different, depending on your standards of course. Some of your dogs will make better PP dogs while others are better catch dogs. You will have to decide if the lesser of their abilities is acceptable. You may end up with two families of dogs that start off with the same pedigree due to selective breeding. I don't personally know the first thing about PP, but I would sit down and list everything I expect and desire from the dog doing PP work and the dog doing catch work. Then I would evaluate the breeds you are wanting to use to create each and make any adjustments there. One thing that my dad always taught me, and he's one that has always been competitive with the best, was that no matter what you are raising, be it dogs, chickens, horses, etc., whatever you breed in is there for ever. Whether it's good or bad it's there. Breed away from the bad all you want. Sooner or later it show it's ugly head and it usually happens at the most inopportune time. Over the years I have found this to be great advice.

[make-em-squeel]

From what ive owned and seen with friends good cds over the past 15 yrs big and little cds both work but no matter the size of the cd, endurance and being athletic, as well as heart and brains matter more than size. The advantage of the bigger dogs are they keep their legs on the ground and dont get ragdolled/dish toweled ... if your thinking your dog is to big to make a good lead in cd thats not true as long as he can breathe/endurance.

[make-em-squeel]

From what ive owned and seen with friends good cds over the past 15 yrs big and little cds both work but no matter the size of the cd, endurance and being athletic, as well as heart and brains matter more than size. The advantage of the bigger dogs are they keep their legs on the ground and dont get ragdolled/dish toweled ... they hold cleaner/wrestle and leverage better than a small cd generally but ive liked allot of 45-60 lb cds as well. However if your thinking your dog is to big to make a good lead in cd thats not true as long as he can breathe/endurance.

[BrendanG]

T-Dog

That’s some of the more sound advice dropped. Two similar but different families of dogs who excel in different things.

Regardless of specialization - what I Breed and test for - are traits that allow a dog to succeed at either. Who the dog develops into (old enough to show preferences and capabilities) around 14-16mo will really determine where they excel. What’s most important is giving them the chance to mature, explore these traits responsibly. And allow them the opportunity to do what they are best at.

Many of the traits I select and test for - are not only transferable (for man or hog work) but also really just the basis for a sound, confident animal. If a dog doesn’t have the basics - the fundamentals - it won’t be used.

Puppy observation tests around 6-8weeks include

Testing for nerve/confidence/curiosity

Tossing a jar of rocks into a puppy pile - who takes off tail tucked and running. Who chases the jar excitedly. Who runs away but comes back to investigate. Who barks at it from a distance.

Playing tug with a rag - observing bite style and tenacity (who stays committed to a grip) - and for the stronger pups - who stays committed to the grip when the jar of rocks is shaken over head

Popping an umbrella open - purposely startling the pups

Who takes off running. Who stands firm. Who barks defensively. Who’s first to investigate.

Although puppies mature differently - some of these tests have served me quite well in picking individuals capable of working and working well. It demonstrates sound confident dogs who can meet challenges head on and what I feel a first demonstration of just WHO the dog is.

I test dogs defensively around 14-18mo depending how they are bred. A simple backtie test with a suspicious stranger who makes their way towards the dog about 50yards away is all it takes. 

When will the dog start trying to create avoidance behavior in the suspicious stranger? At 50yards or at 10? Are you tucking tail and turning around exhibiting stress and avoidance or are you taught at the end of the leash coming forward curiously or letting out some cautionary barks. Are you just so confident that you’re not barking at all?


Everydog doesn’t make the cut. Everydog won’t be bred. Everydog won’t be suitable for high level work. Crossbreeding doesn’t guarantee consistency. But hopefully selection - with the understanding that I may get two lines will.

I already know the first crosses - won’t give me dogs suitable for man work. But rather ingredients I can build upon.

Thanks for the feedback!




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[Reuben]

Many of the traits I select and test for - are not only transferable (for man or hog work) but also really just the basis for a sound, confident animal. If a dog doesn’t have the basics - the fundamentals - it won’t be used.

Puppy observation tests around 6-8weeks include

Testing for nerve/confidence/curiosity

Tossing a jar of rocks into a puppy pile - who takes off tail tucked and running. Who chases the jar excitedly. Who runs away but comes back to investigate. Who barks at it from a distance.

Playing tug with a rag - observing bite style and tenacity (who stays committed to a grip) - and for the stronger pups - who stays committed to the grip when the jar of rocks is shaken over head

Popping an umbrella open - purposely startling the pups

Who takes off running. Who stands firm. Who barks defensively. Who’s first to investigate.

Although puppies mature differently - some of these tests have served me quite well in picking individuals capable of working and working well. It demonstrates sound confident dogs who can meet challenges head on and what I feel a first demonstration of just WHO the dog is.

I test dogs defensively around 14-18mo depending how they are bred. A simple backtie test with a suspicious stranger who makes their way towards the dog about 50yards away is all it takes. 

When will the dog start trying to create avoidance behavior in the suspicious stranger? At 50yards or at 10? Are you tucking tail and turning around exhibiting stress and avoidance or are you taught at the end of the leash coming forward curiously or letting out some cautionary barks. Are you just so confident that you’re not barking at all?


Everydog doesn’t make the cut. Everydog won’t be bred. Everydog won’t be suitable for high level work. Crossbreeding doesn’t guarantee consistency. But hopefully selection - with the understanding that I may get two lines will.

I already know the first crosses - won’t give me dogs suitable for man work. But rather ingredients I can build upon.

Thanks for the feedback!

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Brendan,

First I want to say...welcome aboard...we need more folks like you on here...

I have read all your posts and really like your thought processes...

The testing you do seem very insignificant but in reality they are huge...these details that seem so small, in reality speak volumes of what the pup will be some day...

I myself test all my pups and select accordingly...I can't say I have been wrong with the end results...at least I do not remember in having to cull pups I tested that made the cut...

Most of my ideas came from the German short haired pointer testing/culling processes from way back to include some police work testing and terrier testing...I didn't order books or anything like that just reading articles here and there before the internet was available...nothing formal just reading and learning...and developing my own testing ideas in keeping it simple, yet effective...

I will venture out and say every pup that would pass my testing would make good dogs...many will tell you to just close your eyes and pick a pup...testing is best used for identifying natural born instincts....IMO identifying natural born instinct is the absolute best way to select for working ability and for breeding better dogs...

having said that...there will be pups that don't make the cut that can and will make great dogs one day...but even then we can look at this critically as well...why select the one that turns on later when one can choose the pup that was born displaying the traits early? We can argue both sides but the bottom line...what would we rather have? Pups that don't display the traits early or the pups that do? I do not want a pup that will show positive traits at 6 months old when I can have one that does at 8-10 weeks of age...I couldn't see me keeping 8 pups till six months old to find out...

[BrendanG]

Just touching base and re-reading all the insight and constructive criticism you all have provided.

Coming from a working dog/sport/ and protection dog background - it’s apparent that  I’m not much of a hog dogger, but the information you all have provided is invaluable.

I can respect Dogmen from all walks of life. Especially when it comes to their understanding of canine genetics, drives and selective breedings, and have incorporated that insight into my new kennel website.

I have a Sighthound molosser pairing this spring and wanted to know people experience with staghound crosses


The following pictures are of an F1 pairing of a racing greyhound x English Mastiff. For those who don’t know - the Gammonwood outcross project in New Zealand is rooted in protecting the health and integrity of the English Mastiff

My outcross project isn’t rooted in the betterment of purebred dogs - but rather the (re)creating of the running Mastiff or “heavy hound” type dog. 






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[Sambo5500]

Thanks for the update Brendan. Those brindle dogs from NZ look almost exactly like my 2. Makes since because they are bred very similar.