Breeding dogs...

[Reuben]

Mike started a good thread and it brought up many different thought processes on when to breed in new blood...this is about breeding dogs but in starting out anew and creating a new bloodline...Mike is way past that point...

IMO...

The first thing...to know what a good hunting dog is...

it is important we like the dogs as to how they look and hunt...hunt includes striking ability, bay style, track speed and sticking with the track as long as it takes to bring the hog to bay...if there is fresh sign the dog should find the hog quickly...some dogs take a little while working out a feeder track and some cut and slash and find the hot end quickly...others call it drifting on the track...these are things we must consider when looking for the right dogs...all the above mentioned equals to intelligence and good genetics...we all want dogs that make it look easy...

Second thing is to find the dogs to hunt and and prove as legitimate hog dogs...a plus is using dogs from the best lines available...most hog doggers won’t share their bloodlines...some will sell good quality pups...buying grown dogs usually means buying someone else’s culls...

Once we decide which pair to breed then we worm the female and make sure she is up to date on vaccinations...the breeder should do all things possible in choosing the best pups to hunt and to breed once they have proven themselves...we do this by keeping as many pups as possible and sell and or give them away as we make decisions on who is making the cut and who is not...early on we turn over the generations...we do this to purify or to clean the gene pool...

Early on we can be more forgiving in what we keep because we are in the process of cleaning up the gene pool...the further we are generation wise in the breeding program we should be raising the bar on what a keeper is...for me it is selecting for natural ability and consistency...this is done starting at a very young age...looking for natural inclinations through testing and observation...

[Reuben]

Breeding for natural ability is the best way in my opinion...
Years ago way before the internet I read any article I could find about dogs...and two articles I read took me to a different level of thinking...but like anything else I created my own versions...

There was an article written about breeding and testing puppies and dogs in some European Country...these guys had an over the top kind of testing and breeding program that I couldn’t agree with on account it was too stringent...to have a dog eligible for breeding it had to pass some high level testing and earn degrees..a mixture of obstacle and hunting tests...a new born litter was inspected by a dog warden who did these inspections in a general area...he culled any pups that were not uniform in size or if the color was off...this was right after birth...also included culling down to eight pups on account the mother couldn’t properly feed more than eight pups...a little later, if I remember correctly the warden culled down to six pups...this way the pups could be fed correctly by the dam...the result...pups that were uniform in type...

[Austesus]

Awesome thread Reuben, I will be following this one closely.


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[Reuben]

For me testing for natural ability is a very high priority...usually by eight weeks old I will know who winds naturally...you can have 4 dogs in your buggy and all 4 will blow up when they wind a hog or a hot track...and we say we have winding or rig dogs...that’s not the type I am talking about...the same four dogs in the buggy...and only one dog yips a time or two and wants out...or he picks his nose up in the wind and acts interested...that is the dog I am looking for in the puppy litter...

Finding...scatter some liver tidbits in the grass and turn the pups out and you will see over a period of time who finds more...chances are he will be your best find dog one day...

There are more tests that can be done...very informal and very simple...does it mean that another pup cannot be better...no...but what matters is that we do all we can to select the best for hunting and breeding...over generations we are gravitating towards a high percentage of the best...the proof will be in the woods...

[Reuben]

Thanks

[Reuben]

At the beginning we can breed a few different type dogs to get tighter mouths or a certain size or whatever we think we need in reaching our goals...but at some point we should see what we like and go forward with the plan...

Again “in my opinion “ we do not use the first dogs as our hubs for breedings...they are stepping stones towards a purification...meaning cleaning up the gene pool...after 3 generations of what we consider the best we can select one stud dog to breed most of the time when he proves himself in the breeding pen...I consider the female just as important as the male and more so for other reasons...that is why I believe the female should be bred very few times until about the 4th or 5th generations...because she needs to be turned over for the next generation female to be bred...this turn over rate further purify’s the gene pool...what we should be breeding for is in producing a very high percentage of pups that will be above average hunting dogs...dogs that can reproduce themselves in the breeding pen...

[Austesus]

Reuben, when you say the female should be bred very few times until the 4th or 5th generations, can you further explain this? I’m having a hard time understanding what you mean when you say she needs to be turned over for the next generation female to be bred


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[Reuben]

No problem...my logic was telling that the bloodline was not where it needed to be...too close to scatterbred dogs even though the dogs used were of some good dogs and a few I didn’t like...so I realized that I needed to breed away from the negatives...so as soon as a female proved to be what I liked and I bred her most all in their first heat cycle...so I had 5 generations of top quality females in the pedigree...which would increase the chances of getting good dogs per litter...I called it purifying the bloodline...

[Austesus]

So are you saying you would breed during the first heat cycle (the dog bring young) several times in a row to speed the process up?


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[Austesus]

When you say that, are you line breeding off that same female?


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[Reuben]

Most folks frown on breeding the female in her first heat cycle...it does not bother me in the least...I bred her only once and then breed he daughter once and then the granddaughter once and then great granddaughter...

Many breeders are on the third and maybe fourth generation in a 20 year span...I wanted that in 5 years...and should be having better dogs each generation until we are in a good place...

Many breeders have their own methods...this is the method I believe in...

[Austesus]

So you’re using the same male and each time you are using a female that keeps stepping down a generation?


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[Reuben]

So you’re using the same male and each time you are using a female that keeps stepping down a generation?


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Most of the time that is how I did it and once a son and a half brother...

I did a total outcross once and never used the only pup I kept even though he was a pretty good dog...

[Goose87]

So your breeding away from the foundation stock, the female in particular, instead of around them/her?
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, just trying to grasp your logic...

[WayOutWest]

I have some reservations about breeding gyps that young. I don't know if I have ever owned a gyp that I knew enough about at that age to breed on the first heat.

[Reuben]

Goose...used three females and off of those I bred daughters and granddaughters...

Way out...the females I bred on first heard were females that showed that they were going to make top dogs...and they were...

Here is something else to consider...some breeds or strains will mature slowly and the females mature going into the second heat cycles...so if you have that type of dog then obviously the first heat cycle won’t work...same with testing 8 and 10 week old pups...some can be tested and maybe some bloodlines and or breeds might be to young...but I haven’t had that problem...there is always something to look at...

[Reuben]

Starting out with the best possible dogs is very important...
Breeding the right hunting dogs and creating a strain is very important...
Testing and keeping the very best pups and proving them to meet a minimum standard is very important...making a mistake here is a setback...

I am wondering if anyone else followed a system similar to what I mapped out...it worked out really well for me...

[Goose87]

So if you were breeding females on the first heat, what's the youngest gyp you've ever bred?

[Reuben]

I don’t have exact numbers on account that varies as to when they come in...I would say between 10 months and a year old and did this until I felt like my dogs were breeding true...the dogs I had in those years showed me what I needed to see by that age...

[Reuben]

Breeding for natural ability is the best way in my opinion...
Years ago way before the internet I read any article I could find about dogs...and two articles I read took me to a different level of thinking...but like anything else I created my own versions...

There was an article written about breeding and testing puppies and dogs in some European Country...these guys had an over the top kind of testing and breeding program that I couldn’t agree with on account it was too stringent...to have a dog eligible for breeding it had to pass some high level testing and earn degrees..a mixture of obstacle and hunting tests...a new born litter was inspected by a dog warden who did these inspections in a general area...he culled any pups that were not uniform in size or if the color was off...this was right after birth...also included culling down to eight pups on account the mother couldn’t properly feed more than eight pups...a little later, if I remember correctly the warden culled down to six pups...this way the pups could be fed correctly by the dam...the result...pups that were uniform in type...

the second article I read...at first it was pretty unbelievable to me but I kept reading by time I got to the end of the article I could see it made a lot of sense...

the writer was talking about unborn puppies and the mother to the pups...he was saying that in life there are many chemical reactions taking place in many things...like when you smoke a cigarette you inhale the smoke and the blood going through the lungs will pick up the oxygen to feed all our cells and when exhaling we exhale mainly CO2...in that transition where the lungs pick up the O2 it also picks up the nicotine and sends throughout our cells as well and we get that natural high...we know there are other things that happen and some probably have not been discovered even now with the technology we have today...he gave other examples but I am just using what I can best remember...he used the above comments before explaining his theory per the following paragraph...

he said...so why can't the female pass on certain traits to the puppies that are not from genetic inheritance...but from the things that she has experienced while pregnant...he says...if the female is hunted during gestation and she gets highly excited on a coon track...she is getting excited because one, she is a coon dog and it is in her genes...but she is inhaling this coon scent and he is barking with excitement and when inhaling the coon scent particles are going into her lungs...the blood going through the lungs then transport the particles throughout her body as well as the adrenaline and who knows what else...the puppies are connected to the mother and they are getting what she is getting...as they get closer to the 63 days to delivery they can feel vibrations and the excitement that the female exhibits or creates...

that was many years ago and I believe this man was way ahead of his time and he still is because many folks don't believe in this thought process...but there are more and more scientist getting in on this line of thinking and research...new ideas and solid theories are being proposed...and findings...the biggest thing I believe is environment...what they eat in there environment, how they are treated , boundaries given...training scenarios...etc...

so there are things we can do to improve the quality of puppies before they are born and while at a very early age...

there is more I am leaving out but the scientist are finding out more as they do the research...they are also looking for ways to train the human body to cure itself by the findings they are making...

none of this is new...it is the understanding of this concept that will take us to the next level...